Yeah I saw the post about gross weight. Not that it matters, but I think its dumb to have weight measured with weight for people. I want to know the actuall weight of the car. Do they think we are dumb and can't add?? I mean there are at most two people (including me) in my car at any one time (due to removed rear seats:D )

APEXi240 wrote:Yeah I saw the post about gross weight. Not that it matters, but I think its dumb to have weight measured with weight for people. I want to know the actuall weight of the car. Do they think we are dumb and can't add?? I mean there are at most two people (including me) in my car at any one time (due to removed rear seats:D )

They list the gross weight, because that's the most recommended weight for the chassis. So it's telling you not to put more than 3600 lbs (including the car's weight) in a 240SX.

Actually, if gross weight includes the passenger weight which is mostly over the rear wheels, maybe that figure is right. With passengers in the car, the rear end may weigh more... kinda makes a little sense now. Having a front engine car weigh more in the back empty, however is way wrong!

Later,Chris

It's not strange that the front and rear weights don't add to the same number as the total. Rear suspention still helps support a fraction of the weight of the front of the car and vice versa. My S14 is listed 1995 front / 1877 rear - 3704 total weight.

My Z32 is something like 1905 front / 2100 rear - 4100 total. Much closer but still not exact.

So yeah, I guess if they measure with gasoline in the tank and weights in the seats it's not too strange that the rear weighs in heavier than the front on some cars, either - since the front seats are pretty much right on the CG and everything else is behind it.

Yeah, I guess that weight thing does make sense then about the rear being heavier.

hey guyz i dont know if u no or not but the # to Nissan Corp. for USA is 1-800-NISSAN1 how fitting +D i tryed to call the other day but the techs wernt there. i did talk to 1 tech the day prior but all he sayed is "in the 22 years ive worked here no has ever asked me what the weight distribultion was..." he didnt no. i still dont KNOW EXACTLY how thay weigh the cars i just read the labbel... but i will be calling them 1st thing monday mourning soon after i eat my daily honda/domestic +D

SpeedingMonk wrote:hey guyz i dont know if u no or not but the # to Nissan Corp. for USA is 1-800-NISSAN1 how fitting +D i tryed to call the other day but the techs wernt there. i did talk to 1 tech the day prior but all he sayed is "in the 22 years ive worked here no has ever asked me what the weight distribultion was..." he didnt no. i still dont KNOW EXACTLY how thay weigh the cars i just read the labbel... but i will be calling them 1st thing monday mourning soon after i eat my daily honda/domestic +D

Dude, I'm tell you right now....

The cars are weighed on four independant scales, one placed underneath each tire. The car has a full tank of gas, 150 lb sand bags in each seat that has a seatbelt, and 50 lb sand bags in the trunk, one for every seatbelt.

So in a 240SX, it will be a 150 lb sand bag in each front seat, 150 lb sand bag in each rear seat, and 200 lb sand bag in the trunk. With a full tank of fuel. And then each corner is weighed. The front is the weight of the RF and LF corners added together. The rear is the weight of the RR and LR corners added together. *That* is how they do it.

I've had to weigh cars before for EPA testing at school. That is the way the EPA specifies.

EZ, don't worry, we're all wrong, he's right....

I don't care what any of you say, its all about THE LINE!

EZcheese15 wrote:Dude, I'm tell you right now....

The cars are weighed on four independant scales, one placed underneath each tire. The car has a full tank of gas, 150 lb sand bags in each seat that has a seatbelt, and 50 lb sand bags in the trunk, one for every seatbelt.

So in a 240SX, it will be a 150 lb sand bag in each front seat, 150 lb sand bag in each rear seat, and 200 lb sand bag in the trunk. With a full tank of fuel. And then each corner is weighed. The front is the weight of the RF and LF corners added together. The rear is the weight of the RR and LR corners added together. *That* is how they do it.

I've had to weigh cars before for EPA testing at school. That is the way the EPA specifies.

there's your answer as to why the rear is listed as heavier than the front on the s13...you've got 50lbs per seat in the trunk/hatch (behind/over the rear wheels) plus a full tank of gas, which is also behind the rear wheels in an s13 (s14 has the tank mounted under the rear seats...in front of the rear wheels)...so you end up with about 480lbs behind the rear wheels (guessing that gasoline weighs about 5lbs/gallon...I dunno). With all that weight behind the wheels, the moment of that force will add to the weight on the rear wheels, and take weight off the front wheels (rear wheels act like a fulcrum)....that still doesn't explain why you get 4048lbs when you add fr and rear, maybe they're measuring two different values...the label for the fr and rr weights is 'GAWR' and not 'GVWR'

Daunttless wrote:I don't care what any of you say, its all about THE LINE!

are there any aftermarket parts for moving the line towards the front? I think this would make for a good drift setup

Yeah, VTEC stickers move it about 6 inches per sticker. I know a guy with 60 stickers, his line is so far forward he destroys the competition because when all the better drivers pass him, aka everyone, his line totally ****s up their line. Its cruel, but effective. : )

like i sayed....

Originally posted by SpeedingMonk hey guyz i dont know if u no or not but the # to Nissan Corp. for USA is 1-800-NISSAN1 how fitting +D i tryed to call the other day but the techs wernt there. i did talk to 1 tech the day prior but all he sayed is "in the 22 years ive worked here no has ever asked me what the weight distribultion was..." he didnt no. i still dont KNOW EXACTLY how thay weigh the cars i just read the labbel... but i will be calling them 1st thing monday mourning soon after i eat my daily honda/domestic +D

I NEVER TRYED TO SAY HOW THAY DID IT MAN just read the frekin label

ALSO

Quote »APEXi240 3619lbs for an S13, haha, thats heavier than my friend's V8 Mustang. 2200lbs for the rear? That's 500lbs short of the TOTAL weight of my S14. [/quote]

..... ur s14 is 1700 lbs? my buddys tiny little CRX wiaghts more???i believe some 1 sayed the engine wieghs 400 lbs so ur WHOLE CAR waighes 1300 LBS w/ out the engine ......... figure what 100 lbs each tire/rim that knocks it down to 900 lb car..........

ALSO I NEVER SAYED U GUYZ WERE WROUNG I SAYED I DONT KNOW ty very much for puttin words in to my mouth

i beileve VTEC stickes rule.... thay realy make the hondas sooooo much faster ill never keep up +D

". My S14 is listed 1995 front / 1877 rear - 3704 total weight." Xave

an ur s14 weighs 1700lbs? lbs of bull sh*t

u want me to believe that nissan magicaly cut the weight of the 240 in HALF...........

no, he was saying 500 more pounds and that was the total weight, IE 2700 pounds.

but wasnt it u that sayed u can pull biut 200 lbs of crap out of the car? that i can believe the s14 being 1000 lbs lighter i can not...

OK guys and gals, I can settle this all.

GVWR is gross vehicle weight rating - meaning the loaded weight of the vehicle, that is where the sandbags come in, and the weight in the trunk to simulate luggage. This usually also includes all vehicle fluids topped off.

Now, GAWR is gross axle weight rating - meaning the MAXIMUM allowable weight for each axle, above and beyond the GVWR.

Obviously now you can see why the difference.

In florida there is a vehicle weight on out titles. It is the dry curb weight of the vehicle, and it tends to be very accurate. It will be close to what Nissan says the vehicle weighs. When a curb weight / vehicle weight is specified it is generally dry weight, no passengers, no weights, no fuel. All other fluids filled.

As for the line thing, Torry is correct in that they weight the vehicle on pads and the weight distribution is calculated that way, if would be interesting if someone also published the L/R distribution.

Another thing, about the RB in S-chassis. Inline 6 engines are far from compact, and thereby heavy. They are also subject to flexing do to the length of the engine so they require extra bracing. The RB in particular is one of the most robust inline 6 engines ever built, so you can bet it is far from being a lightweight, my solution to the problem of adding extra weight to the front is to move the engine rearward. Somebody mentioned the 240 being a master piece that should not be toyed with. HAH dont make me laugh. By adding an RB to the front you HAVE to offset the weight to the rear to compensate. So, absolutely get everything out of the front end that you can, go full carbon on the front if you can afford such niceties. I would cut the firewall and slide the engine under the dash somewhat like the newer F-bodies have, you want all the weight, (or more correctly mass) between the axles if possible.

The vehicle when turning tends to rotate on an verticle axis about 1/3 of the wheelbase ahead of the rear axle, meaning that you want the mass of the vehicle centered as close to that axis as possible to facilitate the car turning easily. The axis about which the vehicle tends to rotate normally is known as the polar moment of inertia, or the center of mass. Ever wonder why a 240 slides so smoothly and controlably ? It is because the polar moment of inertia is located quite far forward in the vehicle due to so much mass in the front from the engine and tranny. It is also why a porsche 911(rear engined) is so hard to maintain a smooth slide in. The mass being centered far toward the rear, once it breaks loose, it immeciately wants to rotate around that axis, and you have to be damned good to drift a RWD 911. Thats also the doubled-edged sword of mid-engined cars; they handle amazingly and turn in like you wouldnt believe, but are accordingly difficult to drive because they rotate so easily. Once it slides you have to catch it quick like.

Now for mass in the front of the vehicle. Well imagine that axis 1/3 the wheel base ahead of the rear axle. The car normally rotates approxiamately around that when turning normally, not sliding. Its about 4 ft from the trunk and about 8ft from the front of the engine bay. Take a 4ft pole and tie a battery to the end and go swing it around and see how easy it is to change its direction. Now try that with an 8ft pole =) thats called momentum guys. So tell me again, where do you want your battery??

And lastly, someone mentioned weight making the car grip. In a straight line this is true. But that same weight, or more accurately mass, wants to keep traveling the direction is it traveling, so when you try to turn it doesnt want to. Lots of weight in the front, the car will understeer because teh front end wont want to turn. Lots of weight in the rear, and that weight will want to swing out; oversteer. Bottom line, reduce weight as much as possible, in all areas, and optimal weight distribution is not 50/50 since that axis I spoke of is not located halfway between the axles. 50/50 would be great if all cars had full four wheel steering, but most dont, and even cars with 4ws, dont turn the rear as much as the fronts. Optimal weight distribution would be something around 45/55, take a look at how any open wheel racecar is setup, they are NOT 50/50, but 50/50 is good to shoot for in a FR street car, and it is acheivable. Always keep the mass as close to that axis as possible. Things that are far away from that axis such as batteries, bumper beams, and heavy body kits will ruin the handling.

Sean D.

P.S. If the DOT come asking, I did NOT tell you to remove your bumper beams, and on an S13 dont do it in the rear because the gas tank is back there.

heh...damn, I was way off with my whole weight distribution theory of the back being heavier than the front I guess it helps knowing what GAWR is.

1st id like to say thank you. The only reason i didnt believe what every 1 sayed is cuz no 1 has convinced me. now....

answer me this i have been talking to every 1 who i know ( that has an idea how to drive a car) if the differance between the weight distrubtion if this in frerance to the rear ov the car...

for legal reasons....

~~~~ DISCLAIMER ~~~~~~THIS IS A QUESTION IF ANY OF YOU (READERS) ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO GO AN TRY THIS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. I AM NOT AT FAULT. THIS IS PURLY FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPESES

Less junk in the trunk comepaired to more is that less weight will make a car drift less but easyer... more weight does 2 things opsite ov that and 1 is....

it poses more "downforce" on the trunk (witch goes stright to the rear axle) and 2...

when ur driving stright aproching a left 90degree turn and then turn the wheel that frount end is ONLY AIMING Gwhere u wanna go. the MOMENTIUM is now being transfered to the trunk but ....cause theres more force in the momentem of the rear than there is fource driving the frount end meaning no push / pull moving u towards where ur going the force stayes in the rear pushing the car fowrawd (meaning like it didne turn....) that causes the rear to drift .

1+2=3

1) but the coralation to the 2 is that while more weight the rear will apply more "downforce" to the rear axle.

+2) add momentum to the equasion and the weight that was once pushing the car down is now pushing the car outta the turn (stright) an it....

= 3) equals.. when there is more "force" in the momentium then there is "downforce" the car drifts.

if u wanna get technical it would look some thing like

d - downforcem - rear momentem

when : d>m = twhen : m>d = f

t - traction and,f - fun time drifting +D on paper it would look like the bottem right (South east) quarter of a perfect sphere put touching on the left side of the bottem left (south west) corner (peeking in the middle)

this is why i say MORE Weight + MORE volocity(forward momentem) = MORE DRIFT but mind u... more drift means more dificult to control.

on the lighter side .... +DLESS weight + LESS volicity = LESS drift also LESS dificult to control

so u might say u car "work out" ur driving skills +D start light slowely work ur way up im rockin it AT a 4 ton jack, 1case tranny fluid, 1 case oil 110 peice tool kit, a sq foot area of cleaning supplys, 15 lbs of specalty tools so u might say u car "work out" ur driving skills +D start light slowely work ur way up im rockin it AT a 4 ton jack, 1case tranny fluid, 1 case oil 110 peice tool kit, a sq foot area of cleaning supplys, 15 lbs of specalty tools an the seats are bout 135 degrees back (comming off the bottem of the seat) jus like that frount bumper view in racing games......

so was my thought right? are u convinced it is?

its all bout spliting atoms and slicing the air ...... with ur frount end - ME the monk w/ the junk

aye 1 know of any professional driving schools in the Northeast? or any thing where around ?

im just wating till some 1 know knows how to drive a 240 like it should be, like mine is +D

props to the man w/ hubcaps +D

What?

So the front is lighter than the rear? haha, j/k.

When I said I stripped 200lbs off the car, I meant a 1985 300zxt, and I'm not sure about it being 200lbs, it was probably a little less, but it sure was a lot, more than I weight I know that.

Yes I meant 2700lbs, not 1700lbs, that would be nice though...

I didn't get the whole drifting formula you were putting out, but I drift poorly, my tranny is getting shot, and I'm a little scared of smacking up my daily driver, considering I have like 60 bucks in the bank, so I'm really no help in that area anyway.

SpeedingMonk wrote:". My S14 is listed 1995 front / 1877 rear - 3704 total weight." Xave

an ur s14 weighs 1700lbs? lbs of bull sh*t

u want me to believe that nissan magicaly cut the weight of the 240 in HALF...........

Uh dude, you read his message wrong, he said that 2200 lbs is "500 lbs SHORT" of his 240sx. Meaning his 240 weighs 2700 lbs, not 1700 lbs. And actually, 2700 lbs sounds about right (for actual weight).

Monk, nice post there about weight transfer in a drift. I have just a couple points that need to be cleared up if you dont mind...

So you're saying more weight in a car makes a better drift? I disagree. yes more weight in the rear end means the car will flare more in a drift, but it makes it harder to control, plus you will be doing tank slappers all the time instead of clean drifts. I also don't think its a smart idea to have all that stuff in the rear of the car to fly around in case you get in a wreck. of course all those tools, jacks, tires are a necessity to a drifter, I would personally rather have it in my friends truck who is watching me and filming me :P

you also totally forgot to add this into your equation...Tire grip and adhesion...adding all the extra weight of tools and jacks in the rear is just only going to make the rear tires wanna stick to the road more cuz of the extra weight. It's like putting sand bags in the bed of a truck during winter so it doesn't peel out everywhere it goes. i agree like i said before the extra weight helps the flair and style of a good drift, but it's completely unecessary and makes the car slower coming out of a drift and significantly harder to control because it is harder to balance all of the extra weight. it also causes the entrance speed to a corner higher to get the rear end to flare, and it is also more dangerous, not a wise choice for beginners (not saying you are).

in your equations all you are talking about is oversteer through a corner bro. the extra weight you added to the trunk pushes the rear end faster around the corner than the front end only because the front end's momentum is less because of the weight difference. thats generic oversteer, not drifting. a stock trueno will contradict everything you said about what makes a car drift because of weight.

a little history of drifting. in japan racers would go up in the mountains (touge) and race the roads, apexing corners and taking a normal race line through the turns. As racers kept going faster and faster they eventually lost control in turns and would spin out (obviously caused by velocity/speed). Then it became popular to control the car through the slide as this showed the driver had excellent skills. alas drifting was born as all racers started doing controlled slides through all of the corners and combinations of turns.

additionally think of this:light car = easily controlled drifts as a lighter car is easier to break loose in a turn, and more easily controlled due to the less weightheavy car = takes less power to cause a drift, but you have to be careful as high speed drift will be like trying to turn a semi going 80mph around a left hand turn...you just cant. Hell yes the semi will slide and it will look cool, that it until it slides out of control or into something. a heavier car is also significantly slower exiting a turn.

the trueno wouldnt be the most popular drift car in japan if they didnt know what they were doing. i personally believe the driver makes the drift, not the car and all its doohickeys and mods. yes those help, some more significantly than others, but in the end its the driver who is making the sliding happen. peace.

btw...there is no "rear momentum" of a car...you put stuff in the trunk and you will alter the entire momentum of the car (acting throught the center of mass if you don't like messing about with differential equations)

What does get altered is the polar moment of inertia since you changed the weight distribution in the car...this is what will make it perform differently when you've got stuff in the trunk.

As far as drifting with stuff in the trunk, I say 'eh'.Sure it makes a difference, but not cataclysmically...most people I know who drift do so with tires in their trunk (would you like to run from cops, and do > 80 mph on your 'drift tires'?). The most important thing is to make sure everything is secure and not moving around a lot, that will make things awkward since 100lbs of silding tires in your trunk does not contribute much to the dynamics of the car, but as soon as they slam into the side they instantly will. Again, it isn't a cataclysmic effect, but it is pretty sudden and can turn a fast turn into a power slide pretty quick.

Quote »im rockin it AT a 4 ton jack, 1case tranny fluid, 1 case oil 110 peice tool kit, a sq foot area of cleaning supplys, 15 lbs of specalty tools [/quote] this is what monk said he has in his trunk. that prolly weighs significantly more than a couple of tires like you got. i know that my small tool chest alone weighs over 75 lbs. i would never put that in my trunk.

oh and how would i like to run from a cop with my drift tires on? well simple, thats a choice ur gonna have to make and a risk that you take being a drifter and doing it where cops can get you. I doubt the cops are going to let you change to your "try to outrun a cop" tires if they catch you by suprise and you are forced to bail. the tools, jacks, etc are mearly there as a worse case scenario. again, i would have them in my friends truck who is watching me and filming me, think of him as a mobile pit crew

"MA > YOU" nice touch +D

i just wote ( copy/pasted) 2 pages ov our dialog but noo the F&kin P.O.S. PC crashes ( its not mine) any way read over what i wrote again we are aruging the same point i think u might have taking my thought the wround way but mainly...

"So you're saying more weight in a car makes a better drift? I disagree. yes more weight in the rear end means the car will flare more in a drift, but it makes it harder to control,"

no, im just saying more is just that MORE not better. more slide/difficult to control/speed

"ME > YOU " - you +D

:ylsuper

hehe i figured we were prolly on the same basis with our giant super posts there :P

me>you!!!!! mahaha!

people of r intalect should never get introble for mooving violations +D or any tickets for that matter ...

tell that to the cop who gave me a negligent driving in the 2nd degree ticket for going 25 mph in an empty parking lot at midnite...my court date to fight that ****er is next month.