Hey,
1) I know the standard turbo for a street KAT seems to be a T3/T04E turbine: .63A/R Comp: 50 trim. BUT What are the other "dimensions" of the turbo. Like what would be the Compressor A/R (unless its .50, but trim makes me think wheel size), trim on the turbine side, etc...basically all the rest of the measurements for the turbo if I were to order a custom one....know what I mean?
2) Is there a ROM program for the ECU of the KA24DE floating around the net? Or even better, a JWT reprogram of it? Anybody have any "connections"? Also, what kind of equipment would be required to up and download the ROMs to an ECU from a computer. So basically I wanna try to learn how to tune my own ROM...I know a bit about low level programming, I figure Id try it out, just for the hell of it. (BTW- Plz dont warn me not to flash some program in my ECU if I am unsure of it working, I know better lol)
3) How do you guys afford all your turbo stuff? JEEZ. I am prolly going to take out a loan just for the upgrade...otherwise I know Ill never save up enough til im like 30. Which is far too old for me to be turboing anything =) Youre like already dead...lol
Random KAT questions
1) I don't think there is a standard.. you can read around and see everyone else's setups yourself, but everyone runs something different.2) I haven't ever heard of ROM upgrades for the KA ecu. I know that JWT ecus have that option though. And I'm guessing if the stock ones could do that then people wouldn't pay 500 bucks for the JWT.3) I just buy my parts one at a time over a long time period... gives me time to worry about each one individually and spend time shopping around and making decisions, gives you time to work on each one individually, and it spread the cost out.
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aleph1
- Posts: 907
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:08 pm
- Car: 1990 240SX hatch MODS: class.
- Location: Fort Collins CO
Well, as far as WDs sticky about the turbo size, just basically more details.
All JWT does is take stock ECUs and "flashes" (rewrites) them with their modified program (ROM). To make things more efficient, they have a bunch of chips already flashed so they just pop em in while taking out the stock chip and then flashing the stock chips with their program, hence having a never ending supply of chips. Its the the same chip, just reprogramed, so whats to stop others from simply reprograming it? I know MV240 knew someone at one time with the Mine's ROM for SR20s....prolly much cheaper than the actual ecu =)
Id go crazy buying parts individually. First of all, Id like fiddle and stare at it all day and wish Id have the rest of the setup. And secondly, it would feel kinda stupid to like spend 700 on a turbo, so it can sit in my closet for a few months at the very least...while I might go through some issues or something and might need the money. Know what I mean?
All JWT does is take stock ECUs and "flashes" (rewrites) them with their modified program (ROM). To make things more efficient, they have a bunch of chips already flashed so they just pop em in while taking out the stock chip and then flashing the stock chips with their program, hence having a never ending supply of chips. Its the the same chip, just reprogramed, so whats to stop others from simply reprograming it? I know MV240 knew someone at one time with the Mine's ROM for SR20s....prolly much cheaper than the actual ecu =)
Id go crazy buying parts individually. First of all, Id like fiddle and stare at it all day and wish Id have the rest of the setup. And secondly, it would feel kinda stupid to like spend 700 on a turbo, so it can sit in my closet for a few months at the very least...while I might go through some issues or something and might need the money. Know what I mean?
Re:ROM burns
I don't have direct experiance with the PROM's used in vehicles per se, however I'v burnt EPROMS for crane control systems. Anyways, I would presume that the ROMs in ECU's are EPROMS,(electr. programmable read only mem). Typically they are erased by exposing the glass window on top of the chip and subjecting them to ~1-2hrs worth of UV light. Burning/reading can be done via PC-interfaced device or a handheld/standalone.
Proprietary reverse engineering can be tricky, although I don't suspect the data in these ROMs are guarded too tightly. If you would like to start learning on your own, the first thing would be to identify the chip type used in your ECU. Such things as size(256k, 512k, 1/2/4Mb, etc), burn voltage(usually 12.5) will help to chose an appropriate ROM burner. You can use the marking on the chip to aid with this.
Once you have your ROM reader/writer, then the fun starts. After downloading the data, you must correctly 'map' the data. Get your hex/binary cap on, you'll surely need it! By 'map' I mean associate each memory location, bit-by-bit, byte-by-byte, with relative information. ie address location 0x3F contains the fuel output for xxxx RPM.
The majority of this data will be the 'fuel map', however there is certainly more to muck with, such as fuel-cutout, etc. This memory mapping, IMHO, is what deters most people from doing this on their own...and what keeps JWT in business. :rolleyes I would _not_ reccomend using someone elses ROM setup, ESP. on a differently configured vehicle.
Hope I didn't murk the waters here... let us know if you decide to go through with this and/or need help.
Regards,-Jamie
Proprietary reverse engineering can be tricky, although I don't suspect the data in these ROMs are guarded too tightly. If you would like to start learning on your own, the first thing would be to identify the chip type used in your ECU. Such things as size(256k, 512k, 1/2/4Mb, etc), burn voltage(usually 12.5) will help to chose an appropriate ROM burner. You can use the marking on the chip to aid with this.
Once you have your ROM reader/writer, then the fun starts. After downloading the data, you must correctly 'map' the data. Get your hex/binary cap on, you'll surely need it! By 'map' I mean associate each memory location, bit-by-bit, byte-by-byte, with relative information. ie address location 0x3F contains the fuel output for xxxx RPM.
The majority of this data will be the 'fuel map', however there is certainly more to muck with, such as fuel-cutout, etc. This memory mapping, IMHO, is what deters most people from doing this on their own...and what keeps JWT in business. :rolleyes I would _not_ reccomend using someone elses ROM setup, ESP. on a differently configured vehicle.
Hope I didn't murk the waters here... let us know if you decide to go through with this and/or need help.
Regards,-Jamie
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midnight brother
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:07 pm
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aleph1
- Posts: 907
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:08 pm
- Car: 1990 240SX hatch MODS: class.
- Location: Fort Collins CO
Thanks jamie your info helps a lot.
I have not opened the ECU yet, so I have never seen the inside, so I am unaware of the whole daughterboard issue. I have a spare car sitting around, but Im planning on selling it, but I suppose I could unhook it for a bit and dump the rom to my computer, then put it back. It will take awhile to map it all out lol. If I do end up mapping it all out correctly and am able to reprogram it to work with my own specs, I suppose it could be a worth while investment for myself and others...
It would be even more helpful if someone that has a JWT KA24DE ecu could dump that program to pc as well, it would make it easier to tune =)
I just searched the net and found this interesting info:http://retro.co.za/efi/DIY_EFI/2000/efi5-116.txt
Apparently JWT just adds a daughterboard with a EPROM on it, because the chips on the Nissan ECU cannot be flashed/taken out?
SO, conceivably, it should be possible to just read the data from the JWT daughterboard, if thats all that needs to be done to modify the fuel/ign maps...
WOW, this site is VERY helpful, although it pertanes to 300ZXs, most of the info is general. http://cherrypicker.tripod.com....html
I have not opened the ECU yet, so I have never seen the inside, so I am unaware of the whole daughterboard issue. I have a spare car sitting around, but Im planning on selling it, but I suppose I could unhook it for a bit and dump the rom to my computer, then put it back. It will take awhile to map it all out lol. If I do end up mapping it all out correctly and am able to reprogram it to work with my own specs, I suppose it could be a worth while investment for myself and others...
It would be even more helpful if someone that has a JWT KA24DE ecu could dump that program to pc as well, it would make it easier to tune =)
I just searched the net and found this interesting info:http://retro.co.za/efi/DIY_EFI/2000/efi5-116.txt
Apparently JWT just adds a daughterboard with a EPROM on it, because the chips on the Nissan ECU cannot be flashed/taken out?
SO, conceivably, it should be possible to just read the data from the JWT daughterboard, if thats all that needs to be done to modify the fuel/ign maps...
WOW, this site is VERY helpful, although it pertanes to 300ZXs, most of the info is general. http://cherrypicker.tripod.com....html
To answer your first question, the full specs on my turbo are:
T3/T04E .50 a/r compressor housing with 50 trim compressor wheel, .63 a/r turbine housing with a stage 3 wheel. Unfortunately, I don't know what trim stage 3 is, only that it is pretty much a wheel that is in the middle. Also, be sure to specify a 360 degree thrust bearing, it's worth the extra money to have it last a little longer especially at high boost.
T3/T04E .50 a/r compressor housing with 50 trim compressor wheel, .63 a/r turbine housing with a stage 3 wheel. Unfortunately, I don't know what trim stage 3 is, only that it is pretty much a wheel that is in the middle. Also, be sure to specify a 360 degree thrust bearing, it's worth the extra money to have it last a little longer especially at high boost.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aleph1 "]Thanks jamie your info helps a lot.
Hey no problem, I'm glad it was of some use. Looking at JWT's site, they have a picture(small) of the inside of a 240 ECU. If you notice, all the IC components are surface-mount(ie not quickly desolderable w/out damage, or socketed for easy removal). Nissan apparently had little intention of providing future 'upgrades' to their stock ECU's, although I'm not sure how commong this really is.I have not opened the ECU yet, so I have never seen the inside, so I am unaware of the whole daughterboard issue.
Neither have I, personally. I briefly read over the first URL you posted, and you are correct about the daughterboard. This some-what negates my above comment about upgradability. More than likely this is a 'piggyback' connector which will allow an alternate data ROM to be installed along with the stock one. More or less overrides the onboard data.
If I do end up mapping it all out correctly and am able to reprogram it to work with my own specs, I suppose it could be a worth while investment for myself and others...
Yes you are certainly correct here - ECU retuning seems to have a very discrete niche in the auto ind. For instance a 32pin EPROM only runs around $1-2 at most... very large proffit potential.
I speak for myself here, but there's a big difference between being able to rewrite the data, and knowing what data to write. I'm not educated enough with tuning to be able to make these sort of decisions/calculations on my own.
It would be even more helpful if someone that has a JWT KA24DE ecu could dump that ...
Yep, if one had a JWT they could find the apropriate burner based on the ROM they(JWT) used. This would be easier than trying to work with Nissans'. And as always I'm sure there are legal/patent issues involved with this daughterboard from JWT should someone decide to mimick it in quantity.
And BTW, that last URL you posted is indeed a good read.
-Jamie
Hey no problem, I'm glad it was of some use. Looking at JWT's site, they have a picture(small) of the inside of a 240 ECU. If you notice, all the IC components are surface-mount(ie not quickly desolderable w/out damage, or socketed for easy removal). Nissan apparently had little intention of providing future 'upgrades' to their stock ECU's, although I'm not sure how commong this really is.I have not opened the ECU yet, so I have never seen the inside, so I am unaware of the whole daughterboard issue.
Neither have I, personally. I briefly read over the first URL you posted, and you are correct about the daughterboard. This some-what negates my above comment about upgradability. More than likely this is a 'piggyback' connector which will allow an alternate data ROM to be installed along with the stock one. More or less overrides the onboard data.
If I do end up mapping it all out correctly and am able to reprogram it to work with my own specs, I suppose it could be a worth while investment for myself and others...
Yes you are certainly correct here - ECU retuning seems to have a very discrete niche in the auto ind. For instance a 32pin EPROM only runs around $1-2 at most... very large proffit potential.
I speak for myself here, but there's a big difference between being able to rewrite the data, and knowing what data to write. I'm not educated enough with tuning to be able to make these sort of decisions/calculations on my own. It would be even more helpful if someone that has a JWT KA24DE ecu could dump that ...
Yep, if one had a JWT they could find the apropriate burner based on the ROM they(JWT) used. This would be easier than trying to work with Nissans'. And as always I'm sure there are legal/patent issues involved with this daughterboard from JWT should someone decide to mimick it in quantity.
And BTW, that last URL you posted is indeed a good read.
-Jamie
Some people, including myself are currently working on that. Most of the info I have I have posted here http://www.riceornice.com/foru...rum=1 and here http://wanganmidnight.com/wang...id=11 but I do wanna say a couple of stuff.
From what I have seen the KA24DE EPROM is in almost every aspect the same as the SR20DET (SR20DE & GA16DE also, not sure). Some people have even compared the KA24E ROM image to the SR20DET and found out that the maps are if not exactly almost at the same addresses. I'm hoping the KA24DE image turns out that way also.
The KA24E does have a simple PROM IC which can be desoldered (surface mounted I believe), the ROM image read and edited (as long as you have the map addresses and then an EPROM programmed and resoldered (or use an IC socket).
Unfortunately for me, the DE has what Mitsubishi calls a versatile ROM IC which includes 256kB of ROM, 16K of RAM, a counter and some input output ports. Anyway, this ROM should be readable using an universal programmer and the ICs datasheets. Once you have the ROM image edited, you need to add a daughterboard to the mainboard. For this you can use the 40 pin test port that Nissan included with the board. A jumper needs to be desoldered on the back so the versatile ROM IC is disabled and the uP reads the ROM image from the daughterboard. In fact this is exactly what JWT does.
I haven't gotten the DE ROM image out yet, currently flat broke after installing the turbo, but I'm positive that it ain't coded or anything.
Im currently trying to update my site with my findings but I ain't got the time nor does my dial-up like uploading big files through FTP.
From what I have seen the KA24DE EPROM is in almost every aspect the same as the SR20DET (SR20DE & GA16DE also, not sure). Some people have even compared the KA24E ROM image to the SR20DET and found out that the maps are if not exactly almost at the same addresses. I'm hoping the KA24DE image turns out that way also.
The KA24E does have a simple PROM IC which can be desoldered (surface mounted I believe), the ROM image read and edited (as long as you have the map addresses and then an EPROM programmed and resoldered (or use an IC socket).
Unfortunately for me, the DE has what Mitsubishi calls a versatile ROM IC which includes 256kB of ROM, 16K of RAM, a counter and some input output ports. Anyway, this ROM should be readable using an universal programmer and the ICs datasheets. Once you have the ROM image edited, you need to add a daughterboard to the mainboard. For this you can use the 40 pin test port that Nissan included with the board. A jumper needs to be desoldered on the back so the versatile ROM IC is disabled and the uP reads the ROM image from the daughterboard. In fact this is exactly what JWT does.
I haven't gotten the DE ROM image out yet, currently flat broke after installing the turbo, but I'm positive that it ain't coded or anything.
Im currently trying to update my site with my findings but I ain't got the time nor does my dial-up like uploading big files through FTP.