yep, you got it. stock pcv >hose>catch can>hose>*filter>hose>vac pump>hose>manifold. * notes option, that I feel is important, that catch can will not catch it all.the vc line should go vc>hose>catch can>hose>pre turbo

wait so we need 2 catch cans? one for the PCV and one for the VC?? and are you sure about the VC line going pre-turbo? i tought it wasn't since there is no vacuum there... . so after MAF, pre-turbo?? is that where the VC line goes?

hey guys what happened to this thread?? are we just going to let all this good info die?? also my question is still unanswered!!!

The vacuum required will be supplied by the vacuum pump that you are going to add if you follow neverlift's map; therefore taking the hose from the vc to pre turbo is acceptable because it wont be the ONLY attempted vacuum source. So yes two catch cans if you are going to run vc to pre turbo; unless you want all that crap coating your turbo and intake piping.

well the main place for blowby is the pcv. So it is not as important on the valve cover unless you already had some blowby out the vc. I have little to none so I have no can on the vc, just straight into the filter head.

I dont even have a catch can at all, I have an air/oil seperator on the pcv line. Adding a check valve today.

Any hose that goes to the intake tract from the motor will need a oil/air separator. The O/A Sep is just another name for catch can. The key is to make sure the O/A or catch can has some type of media inside to assist with removing all the gunk from the air. I suggested steel wool earlier...

Since the PCV is spring loaded closed and vents upon pressure build up, the easiest idea may be to add a separator between the PCV and intake mani AND from the VC to the pipe pre-turbo. That way you are improving the stock system and adding extra evac from the pre-turbo suction. I'd make sure I was using a very good oil/air separator between the VC and the turbo though. Unless you don't mind taking apart your piping monthly and using a solvent based cleaner to get all the crap out of the FMIC.

Exhaust mounted EVAC ftmfw

I'm also standing by my earlier statement that VTA alone is NOT better then the stock system. Simply because most of the KAT guys aren't running the perfect tune and are usually boosting a high mileage motor. So the newer oils aren't going to be able to keep up with the sludge and blow by just by hoping things get burned off and the rest just passes into the atmosphere. The testing process that the oil companies use to achieve the results is done in a lab under perfect conditions. Even the high mileage motors that are tested aren't running boost, nor are they tuned with a FMU or SAFC FFS. They are running at the perfect AFR. Tests and results that are not realistic can't be relied on in the real world. That leaves us with a few workable options that I tried to explain to the best of my ability and understanding. I am no engineer, nor am I the smahtest DIYer on the web. So everything I post is My Opinion , it might not be the best but it's something.

WD

hey guys i was looking in summit racing and they sell the weld-on nipple for the exhaust, and the check valves separately, wouldn't that be more cost affective for us since we don't need those huge breather that would normally go on the chevys?? i mean we only need one check valve right?? for the pcv? or should it be two so it can be one for the pcv and one for the vc??

For the record, the bigsyke charecter is wrong. The PCV is spring loaded closed only when the motor is off. Initial vacuum opens it and the crank IS syphoned by vacuum. It doesn't just "meet" the vapors there.

So everything I said prior to his outburst is correct.

WD

WDRacing wrote:For the record, the bigsyke charecter is wrong....So everything I said prior to his outburst is correct.

WDRacing wrote:For the record, the bigsyke charecter is wrong. The PCV is spring loaded closed only when the motor is off. Initial vacuum opens it and the crank IS syphoned by vacuum. It doesn't just "meet" the vapors there.

So everything I said prior to his outburst is correct.

WD

why I gave up on it...when I did my separator I applied vac via my mouth and it opened , my pics are proof enough, s***ty yes. proof much so.

i did the same vac by mouth and it opened, i blew into it and it shut. so i was wondering why i need the GNX valve in there? coz on the gnx valve, unless its defective, u can suck or blow and it lets air pass. so is there something wrong here? my current hook up is pcv to catch can to manifold.the stupid ebay can has no opening to insert media in it. so far, five hundred miles of boosting dont show anything in the stupid pipe kinda gauge thingy. my valve cover fitting has a filter on it. i know i got my connections right, but i guess i need more than engine vacuum to pull crap out.

theres gotta be another way than the pump, something like a "lazy mans vacuum setup for pcv"...

WD, when are u launching it?....

only thing I'd do to your setup would be to run the vc to the to pre turbo, its not vacuum but its better than just venting, IMHO.

The stock pcv is designed to keep manifold pressure out of the crank case. I never saw a reason to install a check valve as the stock pcv is a one way, only pressure from the crank case or vac from the manifold will open it, why people get away with open atmosphere on the pcv. However I like the idea of that shyt being drawn out of my motor. Your setup is fine long as the stock pcv line was tapped into with the catch can. the pump is THE BEST way. no if ands or butts. It draws vacuum on the crank case constantly. Even during boost when the stock setup slams shut. dont make wd tell you again.

WDRacing wrote:For the record, the bigsyke charecter is wrong. The PCV is spring loaded closed only when the motor is off. Initial vacuum opens it and the crank IS syphoned by vacuum. It doesn't just "meet" the vapors there.

So everything I said prior to his outburst is correct.

WD

So were only talking about idle then? Then I apologize. So how many cc's do you think that little valve will displace through the 1/4th opening? What happens when the butterfly opens and the manifold vacuum drops to almost nothing? How are you supposed to displace all the air in the lower end through a small PCV valve that is now neutral? - thus spring loaded closed like you said. What happens when the pressure suddenly increases and the valve is already maxed out? The flow starts going from the valve cover into the intake throttle body. There is no vacuum in the block now because your engine is sealed, and the PCV valve is a 1 way operation. So now your just venting.

Running the lines to the preturbo only pulls about 1hg. Same thing as running to the ground once you add a catch can.

That is all. If you guys did some more research you would find what im talking about. Have you guys not seen the other threads on nico made by orion?

And the pump doesnt work, people have tried. Hondatech.com

My suggestion was to improve the stock system. Adding filters/separators etc IS an improvement because it removes some of the blowbye before it reaches the manifold. Adding additional evacuation by adding a hose to the pre-turbo pipe is also going to help as long as you have a good filter inbetween.

In the very first post I said "anything you can think of". That pretty much covers every option that works. I don't like the idea of only having the hose going pre-turbo without the PCV pulling as well. Why remove part of the equation when having hurts nothing?

Saying the pump doesn't work is stupid. There are more websites other then Hondatech. The GN guys and Mustang guys have been boosting for years. Lots of guys run the elec vacuum pump with very good success. One guy over on the GN boards I read actually installed the pump and his rear main seal stopped leaking.

There are lots of options and I do read. Perhaps you should open your mind a little. VTA isn't enough in a forced induction vehicle. Not having separators allows more blowbye back into the manifold. So the guys that just run a hose to the pre-turbo with a catch can thats empty may improve evacuation, but they are filling their entire intake tract with crap.

WD

This juicy turbo build thread you speak of WD, do you plan on building the bottom end at all?

240dx wrote:This juicy turbo build thread you speak of WD, do you plan on building the bottom end at all?

Nope.

Im interested in a simple a/o separator in the stock pcv system while my intake manifold is off.How often would I need to change the filter?

It depends on the filter / media inside the seperator itself. If you use steel wool, you can just wash it, if you use some type of filter, it will depend on the amount of blow-by you're motor has. Change / clean the filter when it's dirty. Cleaner will always do a better job.

WD

WDRacing wrote:For the record, the bigsyke charecter is wrong. The PCV is spring loaded closed only when the motor is off. Initial vacuum opens it and the crank IS syphoned by vacuum. It doesn't just "meet" the vapors there.

So everything I said prior to his outburst is correct.

WD

Maybe you misunderstood what Im getting at.

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/28514....html

I suggest you read the whole thread.

I'll probably redo the whole write-up soon. I'll be comparing stock, VTA and header evac first, then if I have time/money I'll do the electric vacuum pump. I have a couple spare boost gauges that show vacuum and I'll use clear inline filters to show how much crap flows back into the motor if left unchecked.

Your stance is that there is always pressure in the sump and it's simply waiting to be pushed out or vented correct? Therefore VTA is better then a stock pcv because the pcv isn't able to flow enough volume to release the built up pressure causing the sump to remain under pressure the entire time.

So if VTA is the best bang/buck option in your opinion, I'd have to say a header mounted system would be the way to go. Since it allows VTA like normal and should "pull" the fumes out when under a load. Assuming a free flowing exhaust with no back pressure.

That makes sense to me.

I stand by my line of thought that adding a separator inline between the PCV and the intake as being a good thing. Any added filtration would have to be a good thing.

WD

excellent write up and good arguments! i will be looking for the comparison thread, there are so many different oppinions on this subject it will be nice to finally see some data! thanks

What does VTA mean?

VTA = Vent To Atmosphere

I know the last post has been a few years ago, but, has anyone tried using those GM pump's
in sort of a stand alone PCV set up?

I had this setup on my old K5 Blazer. It worked well enough to not only keep crankcase vapors out, but it stopped my rear main seal from leaking. I never got around to doing it on my 240, but if it's works on an old high mileage 350, it'll work on the KA.

You have to make sure you run a decent air/oil separator between the valve cover and the pump though. They die if they ingest oil. Also, buy a new one. The used ones are touch and go.

If you use a GM pump, the foam has to be removed from the inside and there is a small rubber regulator that needs to be removed also.

Cool, reason I ask is, I started blowing alot of smoke the other day.
At first I thought it was the turbo, but I've seen no signs of oil in the intake tract,
the only oil residue in the exhaust seems real dry, but, there is, IMO, alot of burnt
oil residue on top of the pistons.(motor has about 3k on it and only ocassionally gave out a small blue puff)
I did a bunch of testing the only problem I've found is the PCV valve doesn't block boost pressure.
So I was thinking of running a vacuum pump or two, and not routing back to the intake.
I don't know if the PCV valve leaking would allow enough pressure to build in the crank case
to blow valve seals or bypass/ crack the rings, but as I said, I can't find another problem.

I recommend a check valve or PCV rated for boost. You don't want the turbo pressurizing the crankcase.

I'd say get a new PCV rated for boost and run some seafoam through the motor to clean everything out. Then wait and see if the smoke comes back.

As far as the turbo goes, the aft ring seal is the one that's prone to failure. That will just let oil seep into the exhaust housing. Is your return line large and straight? Sometimes oil back-up is a culprit.

I have been fiddling with the oil return a bit, I finally got it to head nearly straight up from the pan to
the turbo. Seafoam is currently soaking in the cylinders, lol. As far as the PCV valve itself, I got a new
OE one, and the plan was to seperate the PCV system from the manifold, so there is no way for boost
pressure to get into the crank case. I read the article, that was linked earlier in this thread, about
belt driven vacuum pumps, and it sounded to me like they are not hooked to the intake manifold.
So I just figure, why can't I do that with electric pumps. I want to read up some more on that though.
They were talking about using vacuum relief valves and such, just want to make sure I don't cause another
issue. Probably need to get a hold of Martin, also, to find out what effects that would have on the tune.

I've, also, always been confused as to how venting the valve cover to
atmosphere doesn't created a "vacuum leak". I would have thought
that it would allow unmetered air into the system, under idle and part
throttle operation. However, that is what I was told to do.

Having the valve cover VTA means there is no vacuum at all. If there are fumes, they just eventually vacate. It's not a method I'd recommend. This method insures you'll have very dirty oil.

With an electric vacuum pump, unless you're buying one of the high dollar units that will pull more than 15hg of vacuum you won't need a relief valve. The GM units won't pull that much, maybe 3-4hg.

Take a boost gauge and hook it to your dip stick via vac tube and check your crankcase pressure at idle, cruise and WOT. Then you'll be able to have an idea what's going on. You can never have enough data.