physics - handling - suspention
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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physics - handling - suspention
ok so you take a 240 (s13) w/ a 48/52 wieght raito (i think, its close n e way) well before i ask any thing else what weight distribution would be best for handling or drifting ie. the stock spring rate is 1.6 / 2 so now we have the choice ov keeping the same raito (witch isnt bad) or change it to a better 1 what whats ideal. now this shouldnt be a easy answer because im trying to figure it out factoring in every thing from speed, weight distrib., spring rate.... and thoughts? -- MoNK
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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"why do you want to optimize your car for drifting?" drifting yea but more so handling. because i love driving my car. i dont do it to race, i not realy concerened w/ top speed or et times. i only started racing because i loved driving my car soo much i did it all the time. and i didnt drive like it was my first time driving. i drove like i knew what the car would / can do. most people drive ther cars to somethin like 25 - 35% of what it could acutaly do. i think i drove at more like 80 - 90 % dialy driving (not racing). eventualy i realised the flaw of all these people w/ there honduhs.. i dont believe you should try to improce the capabilitys of you car power an speed if u cant even drive it to its STOCK potental. i think the driver makes ALLLL the differance in a race. thats y i have beatin some putz in his comaro (99+) because he didnt know how to drive thou trafic im not sayin my cars better but i can drive it .
"you need to run a serious 3d dynamics simulation to take all of those variables into account."
ya kno thats a great idea. i didnt think of that do you know of anny apps or any info on that?
"you need to run a serious 3d dynamics simulation to take all of those variables into account."
ya kno thats a great idea. i didnt think of that do you know of anny apps or any info on that?
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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Mayhem_J30
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theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:"Monk:The best weight distribution for drifitng is not the same as the best for all around handling and control."
y is that. wouldnt drift ability and control go hand and hand.if not what would be the proper set ups
A setup for drifting would be to induce the loss of traction, where a setup for optimized handling would be just the opposite. I would personally consider drifting not handling but a controlled slide. All the 240 drifters (IMO) are confusing driving skills with your cars handling abilities. Some think because they can slide around a turn without hitting a tree their car is suddenly a great handler. I would focus on getting the car to keep it tires stuck to the pavement during the most extreme situations and not inducing a slide during mild situations.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Since drifting is sideways sliding, the narrowest rear tires you can find say a 75,70,65 series and extremely hard rubber compound a 680 tread wear Michelin X would let the rear come around and around and a round. Use wide soft tires on the front.
Change the roll couple stiffness to favor the rear....giant rear sway bar, stiffer rear springs, and remove the front sway bar should make an oversteering monster. AKA drift mobile!
Change the roll couple stiffness to favor the rear....giant rear sway bar, stiffer rear springs, and remove the front sway bar should make an oversteering monster. AKA drift mobile!
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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Yes i realize that but wouldnt there be thinks to setup to induce the loss of traCTION. "A setup for drifting would be to induce the loss of traction, " -- mAYhem. ? what does this setup consist of? thats what im talking bout i would imagine tires arent the only thing you can setup. but is it that easy? all i have to do to have seprate handling or drift setup is swap tires? -- thx MoNK
Q45 gave you the formula. Use good, sticky tires in the front and cheap, hard, Pep Boys specials in the rear. Use and adjustable sway bar in the rear so you can twist it tight. This would let you drive the car to the (what do you call these events, anyway?), swap the rears and set the sway bar and you are ready to go.
Just remember, you need torque to break the rears loose and most typical engine mods add top end at the expense of torque.
A Detroit Locker would be neat.
How about a line locker in your brakes so you can lock the inside front wheel and pivot on that wheel?
Just remember, you need torque to break the rears loose and most typical engine mods add top end at the expense of torque.
A Detroit Locker would be neat.
How about a line locker in your brakes so you can lock the inside front wheel and pivot on that wheel?
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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-- reg -- bout your drifing style. i agree +D. but y do u want the oposite kinda tires in the rear to front. if hard cheep tires loss traction easy, y wouldnt you want a simmilar set up in the front? since drifting is sliding? is it cuz you front wheels dont "drift" as far? acutaly that seems right. whats the deal guyz thx -- MoNK
in a well-controlled power oversteer situation, the front wheels never lose grip. this fact is what keeps you in control. You are effectively using your front tires as a translating pivot for the rear end to swing around throughout the turn.
***what i really dont understand is how the sport in japan of racing everything from skylines to minivans around tracks meant for RC cars, thus requiring them to break traction in the rear to simply cut down their turning radius in order to stay on the track...
but how did it make it over here???
We have plenty of space... why crunch a track down to the point where tires must be worn excessively and cars must be set up as to be completely useless on a real track, let alone the street.
oh wait, so one can powerslide through all the 15 mph turns and stopsigns back in suburbia. (chicks really dig it, i hear)...
well ill be damned, it DOES make sense, and it IS totally worth it.
***what i really dont understand is how the sport in japan of racing everything from skylines to minivans around tracks meant for RC cars, thus requiring them to break traction in the rear to simply cut down their turning radius in order to stay on the track...
but how did it make it over here???
We have plenty of space... why crunch a track down to the point where tires must be worn excessively and cars must be set up as to be completely useless on a real track, let alone the street.
oh wait, so one can powerslide through all the 15 mph turns and stopsigns back in suburbia. (chicks really dig it, i hear)...
well ill be damned, it DOES make sense, and it IS totally worth it.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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ka24de_510
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i have to agree with Eswift about drifting. yeah, it looks cool on a racetrack. it's also good way to lose races and wreck your car when you can't quite get out of drift.
if you like drifting, take up rallying. it's better in mud, and actually does get you to where you're going faster. if you can't afford official rallying, buy an '85 impala for about the cost of an exhaust and find an off-road track. it'll be less disappointing when you hit a tree.
for another point:if you consider it "beating" a camaro because he wasn't willing to risk the lives of all of the people around him, then I never hope to win a race.
driving 15% below the limit of your car on public roads is generally idiotic. it may make you a better driver in twitch situations, but it will also cause you to be a part of probably 10 times more twitch situations than you otherwise would.
i can understand the occasional "i'm just doing an acceleration test, officer" from a deserted stoplight, or against one other car. i can also understand pushing it on some remote canyon road. they're both not safe situations, but if you're going to be stupid about it, don't be stupid in traffic.
if you think you know how to drive, i would challenge you to participate in a SCCA autocross. you will be destroyed by guys in stock HF CRXs and whatever other piece of crap you can imagine. and odds are, if you see one of those guys driving around town, he'll just be driving to get to where he's going.
i don't want to ruin your fun, but don't make that style of driving a habit. you'll end up doing something you'll regret. or can't.
if you like drifting, take up rallying. it's better in mud, and actually does get you to where you're going faster. if you can't afford official rallying, buy an '85 impala for about the cost of an exhaust and find an off-road track. it'll be less disappointing when you hit a tree.
for another point:if you consider it "beating" a camaro because he wasn't willing to risk the lives of all of the people around him, then I never hope to win a race.
driving 15% below the limit of your car on public roads is generally idiotic. it may make you a better driver in twitch situations, but it will also cause you to be a part of probably 10 times more twitch situations than you otherwise would.
i can understand the occasional "i'm just doing an acceleration test, officer" from a deserted stoplight, or against one other car. i can also understand pushing it on some remote canyon road. they're both not safe situations, but if you're going to be stupid about it, don't be stupid in traffic.
if you think you know how to drive, i would challenge you to participate in a SCCA autocross. you will be destroyed by guys in stock HF CRXs and whatever other piece of crap you can imagine. and odds are, if you see one of those guys driving around town, he'll just be driving to get to where he's going.
i don't want to ruin your fun, but don't make that style of driving a habit. you'll end up doing something you'll regret. or can't.
when i was at the hot import nights show altantic city, nj i saw a 240 converted into the silvia 1800k.its was a nice car the owner did all the work including installing the ca18. anyways back to the subject that car was tune for drifting. from what i can tell he had some knockoff tires in the rear and an extremely stiff suspension setup. when i say "stiff" i mean solid. i guess what i'm saying is refer to q45tech post at the top.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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--ka24-- "i have to agree with Eswift about drifting. yeah, it looks cool on a racetrack. it's also good way to lose races and wreck your car when you can't quite get out of drift." -- i know
"for another point:if you consider it "beating" a camaro because he wasn't willing to risk the lives of all of the people around him, then I never hope to win a race." -- No thats not what happened, he didnt know what he was doing, thats y he would fly up on prople who wernt going any where. i knew not to do this. thaT alone makes me better driver. you dont learn out of ignorance. i am aware of ythe possably concuences, thats also y i dont drive like a jassack.
"driving 15% below the limit of your car on public roads is generally idiotic. it may make you a better driver in twitch situations, but it will also cause you to be a part of probably 10 times more twitch situations than you otherwise would." -- what would you rate the skill level of your first day of driving on a scale of 1 - 10. are you still there?, or has your skill gone up with experance? and when your skill goes up dont you drive the way you feel comftorable with?
"i can understand the occasional "i'm just doing an acceleration test, officer" from a deserted stoplight, or against one other car. i can also understand pushing it on some remote canyon road. they're both not safe situations," -- true but you should trust in the fact that there are other experinced / compadent drivers out there.
"if you think you know how to drive, i would challenge you to participate in a SCCA autocross. you will be destroyed by guys in stock HF CRXs and whatever other piece of crap you can imagine" -- why are you trying to insualt my skill level? you have little to base anything on, you have never seen me drive, im not saying im the best (nor did i) but i also have had no formal traning (date set in june). i do believe that i can say i am a good driver and i will say that i believe i can be one of the best drivers, some people are just good at things naturly.
"if you see one of those guys driving around town, he'll just be driving to get to where he's going." -- well who wouldnt. dont we all go for joy rides in our cars tho? i would have thpught so, just for the shear happyness that goes along with driving a 240.
"for another point:if you consider it "beating" a camaro because he wasn't willing to risk the lives of all of the people around him, then I never hope to win a race." -- No thats not what happened, he didnt know what he was doing, thats y he would fly up on prople who wernt going any where. i knew not to do this. thaT alone makes me better driver. you dont learn out of ignorance. i am aware of ythe possably concuences, thats also y i dont drive like a jassack.
"driving 15% below the limit of your car on public roads is generally idiotic. it may make you a better driver in twitch situations, but it will also cause you to be a part of probably 10 times more twitch situations than you otherwise would." -- what would you rate the skill level of your first day of driving on a scale of 1 - 10. are you still there?, or has your skill gone up with experance? and when your skill goes up dont you drive the way you feel comftorable with?
"i can understand the occasional "i'm just doing an acceleration test, officer" from a deserted stoplight, or against one other car. i can also understand pushing it on some remote canyon road. they're both not safe situations," -- true but you should trust in the fact that there are other experinced / compadent drivers out there.
"if you think you know how to drive, i would challenge you to participate in a SCCA autocross. you will be destroyed by guys in stock HF CRXs and whatever other piece of crap you can imagine" -- why are you trying to insualt my skill level? you have little to base anything on, you have never seen me drive, im not saying im the best (nor did i) but i also have had no formal traning (date set in june). i do believe that i can say i am a good driver and i will say that i believe i can be one of the best drivers, some people are just good at things naturly.
"if you see one of those guys driving around town, he'll just be driving to get to where he's going." -- well who wouldnt. dont we all go for joy rides in our cars tho? i would have thpught so, just for the shear happyness that goes along with driving a 240.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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for good handling, you will want to have a spring rate that provides the system with enough resistance to render the suspension critically damped for the most common conditions. Thus, spring rates are also a function of the expected average speed, as well as the expected terrain surface gradients (can be modeled with a step input, impulse, or sinusoidal).
obviously, if you want to "drift" excessively, you will want the rear suspension to be uber-stiff. so get struts that provide the greatest damping, and super stiff springs to match.thats for a normal car,
now in your case,
hell, the ultimate drifiting setup would be this: - 18x5 inch wheels, with the hardest cheapest rubber you can find. - replace the struts with solid bars in back - might as well remove those springs now - get a closed rear end or solid rear axle.
now youve got a car thats great for pulling donuts and "drifting" , and otherwise useless for everything else imaginable.
obviously, if you want to "drift" excessively, you will want the rear suspension to be uber-stiff. so get struts that provide the greatest damping, and super stiff springs to match.thats for a normal car,
now in your case,
hell, the ultimate drifiting setup would be this: - 18x5 inch wheels, with the hardest cheapest rubber you can find. - replace the struts with solid bars in back - might as well remove those springs now - get a closed rear end or solid rear axle.
now youve got a car thats great for pulling donuts and "drifting" , and otherwise useless for everything else imaginable.
theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote: he would fly up on prople who wernt going any where.
thaT alone makes me better driver. there are other experinced / compadent drivers out there.
why are you trying to insualt my skill level? you have little to base anything on, you have never seen me drive,
we have, on the other hand, seen you spell.
...looks like phonics phailed again.
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ka24de_510
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you'll notice that at no point did i insult your skill level. i'm sure you're a competent driver, because from the sounds of it you'd be dead by now if you weren't. however, before you proclaim yourself a good driver take some time and find out what a good driver is.
there is a difference between skill and maturity both as a person and a driver. skill is the ability to perform a task well; maturity is knowing when it's not necessary.
i'm glad you're getting formal training. i'm sure you have a lot of potential. i hope you learn all the lessons they try to teach you.
i will agree that you can learn a lot. teenage males have the highest insurance rates. most people will say they just drive too fast. the real reason is because they test their vehicles until their vehicles give out. this results in a high likelihood of a violent wreck, but a lot of knowledge of the vehicle's capability.
honestly though, as far as putting trust in other drivers - have you seen most people drive? i wouldn't place any faith in any person that i didn't know well.
there is a difference between skill and maturity both as a person and a driver. skill is the ability to perform a task well; maturity is knowing when it's not necessary.
i'm glad you're getting formal training. i'm sure you have a lot of potential. i hope you learn all the lessons they try to teach you.
i will agree that you can learn a lot. teenage males have the highest insurance rates. most people will say they just drive too fast. the real reason is because they test their vehicles until their vehicles give out. this results in a high likelihood of a violent wreck, but a lot of knowledge of the vehicle's capability.
honestly though, as far as putting trust in other drivers - have you seen most people drive? i wouldn't place any faith in any person that i didn't know well.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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-- eswift -- lmfao. isee what your sayin bout drifting but realize i didnt start this post to get a good drift set up i missed part of 1 of q45,s replys bout the syspention so i was asking if tires were the only factor. yes my spelling is bad. i see you have noticed captian obvious. +D
--ka24 -- ok my bad but i took twhat u said as tho you were."i'm sure you're a competent driver, because from the sounds of it you'd be dead by now if you weren't. " lol thank you.
"however, before you proclaim yourself a good driver take some time and find out what a good driver is." -- well i believe i am the 1 of the top 2 best drivers (of people i acutualy know) and like you sayed "- have you seen most people drive? " v yea and that only backs what i say.
"there is a difference between skill and maturity both as a person and a driver. skill is the ability to perform a task well; maturity is knowing when it's not necessary.? -- yes i agree compleatle. thats y i dont even run gainst any honduhs any more (that alone is 90 - 95 % of the shumks out there.) i have learned i dont need yto prove im better than them to them, cuz i already proved it to myself.
"i'm glad you're getting formal training. i'm sure you have a lot of potential. i hope you learn all the lessons they try to teach you. " -- Thank you. i apricate that. and i intend to learn every thing thay can trought at me.
"i will agree that you can learn a lot. teenage males have the highest insurance rates. most people will say they just drive too fast. the real reason is because they test their vehicles until their vehicles give out. this results in a high likelihood of a violent wreck, but a lot of knowledge of the vehicle's capability." -- well i have to agree as long as u note that its mostlikly but not the onlyreason.
"honestly though, as far as putting trust in other drivers - have you seen most people drive? i wouldn't place any faith in any person that i didn't know well." -- yea ok ill agree to that too. but thay are out there some where... and i hope to meet them all. on the track. +D
--ka24 -- ok my bad but i took twhat u said as tho you were."i'm sure you're a competent driver, because from the sounds of it you'd be dead by now if you weren't. " lol thank you.
"however, before you proclaim yourself a good driver take some time and find out what a good driver is." -- well i believe i am the 1 of the top 2 best drivers (of people i acutualy know) and like you sayed "- have you seen most people drive? " v yea and that only backs what i say.
"there is a difference between skill and maturity both as a person and a driver. skill is the ability to perform a task well; maturity is knowing when it's not necessary.? -- yes i agree compleatle. thats y i dont even run gainst any honduhs any more (that alone is 90 - 95 % of the shumks out there.) i have learned i dont need yto prove im better than them to them, cuz i already proved it to myself.
"i'm glad you're getting formal training. i'm sure you have a lot of potential. i hope you learn all the lessons they try to teach you. " -- Thank you. i apricate that. and i intend to learn every thing thay can trought at me.
"i will agree that you can learn a lot. teenage males have the highest insurance rates. most people will say they just drive too fast. the real reason is because they test their vehicles until their vehicles give out. this results in a high likelihood of a violent wreck, but a lot of knowledge of the vehicle's capability." -- well i have to agree as long as u note that its mostlikly but not the onlyreason.
"honestly though, as far as putting trust in other drivers - have you seen most people drive? i wouldn't place any faith in any person that i didn't know well." -- yea ok ill agree to that too. but thay are out there some where... and i hope to meet them all. on the track. +D
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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