physics - handling - suspention

[Eswift]

if you find that the post you just typed may be a bit confusing to others, or you have made a typo, just click on the "edit" button at the bottom right hand corner of your post.

similarly, if you want to use a quote from someone else's post, click on "quote" in the bottom right hand corner of the post you want to quote.

hopefully these 2 points might remedy eye aches readers of the board are aquiring from your posts.

[maxnix]

Ain't posting in English wonderful? Now we can all understand one another! Sure aids the dialog.

[maxnix]

It was a compliment. See if you don't get better responses and a better understanding yourself when you articulate your ideas well.

It's your choice.

[theNUDdistBUDDhist]

Dont worry bout it, i was just kidding. I know, I know. -- MoNK

[Eswift]

PS what is the significance of the gorillaz footer?

[Eswift]

fair enough....

[Q45tech]

Stay on ENGINEERING topic - wasting server space and junking up the forum

[Stoneage_Turbo]

easy but crude way to see what Qtech is talking about , grab a silva on GT3 for PS2 , run simulation tires out back ,stickiest stuff up front, no tcs , no asm, no front roll bar , comapre this with stock setup you will note it will be easier to get the rear to step out

its funny , on a dirt sprint car they run a monster size stickier right rear ,i guess this is the diffrence between power oversteer and brake oversteer ?

maybe the dirt track is where US drifting came from , or maybe its the world wide origin

[Eswift]

roads were originally dirt around the world, and thats where "drifting" came from for automobiles.

you can "drift" a horse, and rabbits "drift" all the time.

cats and dogs "drift" on slippery floors all over the world.

its really not that cool, original, or complicated in any way.

[neurovish]

btw...the good tires in front, bad tires in back setup is a really crappy setup for drift...sure it'll break the rear loose easier, but it will make it much harder to control the slide. Drifting is all about maintaining traction, and with crappy tires in the back you don't have traction to maintain.

asking what the best setup for drift is does not make any sense...there is no best setup, it's hardly mathematical at all. Learn to drive first and learn your car...then figure out what you need to do with it, setting up your car for 'drift' first then trying to learn how to drift is backwards as hell.

There are so many variables involved, you cannot create an accurate optimum computer model without driver style input...since every driver is different, that is impossible to know.

...and the car doesn't pivot around the front tires, those are sliding too a lot of the time, if they aren't then you're just not going fast enough

[maxnix]

Drifting is all about maintaining traction

If you are drifting, you are not maintaining traction, but rather have compromised it. Drifting is a slower way through a corner than maintaining constant traction.

It's all for show, not go. Like rear wheel burnouts in cars with most of the weight on the front axle. Whoopee.

[Eswift]

well said, brian.

[Q45tech]

http://downwardspiral.net/motorcycle/mcintroe.pdf

Low rolling resistance tires [harder compound] perform worse in hydroplanning speed test .....55 pages to scare you about what California has in mind to save 1-2% average fuel costhttp://www.energy.ca.gov/repor...2.PDF

http://www.sealseastern.com/PD...l.pdf

[AZhitman]

cats and dogs "drift" on slippery floors all over the world.

its really not that cool, original, or complicated in any way.

Funniest post I've seen on NICO in a LONG time. Well said, Eswift...

[neurovish]

If you are drifting, you are not maintaining traction, but rather have compromised it. Drifting is a slower way through a corner than maintaining constant traction.

It's all for show, not go. Like rear wheel burnouts in cars with most of the weight on the front axle. Whoopee.

if you had no traction, your car would be spinning out into a curb/ditch/wall/tree/cow instead of maintaining a line sideways.

Your claim that drifting is a slower way through corners is complete BS btw, the fastest line usually involves a small slip angle of a couple degrees. The slow way would be a big full lock showy drift, just because you can't see that a car is drifting doesn't mean it isn't.

[maxnix]

Your claim that drifting is a slower way through corners is complete BS btw, the fastest line usually involves a small slip angle of a couple degrees.

Oh great guru, please explain at the same entry speed how any slip is better than 100% traction for increasing speed coming out of the corner. Slip is not 100% traction. 100% traction will always permit more power to be applied, thus increasing the exit velocity more than the same vehicle with less traction. Anything less than 100% is less.

Be careful when your hands smell like you've been playing in the cow pens.

[MrFox]

theres a difference between slipping and skidding. tires do need a small slip angle to generate side loads for turning. this should not be mistaken for skidding, because the couple of degree of slip is still within the static traction limit of the tire - the tire and ground is deforming somewhat elastically. however once u go past the point where contact patch starts to shear, avaliable traction goes way down.

[Eswift]

however once u go past the point where contact patch starts to shear, avaliable traction goes way down.

yah, i.e. drifting...i.e. worthless for 99% of the time

you can do all the calculations, but its a waste of time, as it is common sense, that "drifting" is only beneficial in extreme unrealisticly close corners. - a` la an autocross.

sure, waste all your energy by spinning off your available torque, but you can be sure that it is not the fastest way through a turn.

much better off increaseing your contact patch, through camber, or wider wheels..etc and planning on staying planted throughout the turn.

no one serious about racing "drifts," or gets all hot and bothered about the concept. you get power oversteer in some track cars, but it is used to a much lesser extent.

WRC cars powerslide all over the place, but usually it is because there is negligable available traction (snow, gravel, dirt.) most stages are off tarmac.

put it this way: you only see a professional racer "drift" on tarmac unless the turn is hairpin to the point where throwing the momentum of the car about the rear around the CG will flip it around faster than a normal turn. (i.e. would have effectively had to stop anyway)

the other case is if the radius of the turn is smaller than the turning radius of the car, and the course is extremely narrow.

"drifting" may make cars look cool at a distance, as well as the ****pit. but its purely a scaled effect, not unlike RC cars. put 2 identical cars on the same track with equally skilled drivers. One wants to win. The other wants to make a show of himself. The one who wins is the one that maximizes grip at every instance and knows where to place his apex. The silly boy racer that wants the showmanship award "drifts" through all the turns, readily falling behind from the serious driver. red in the face now, he realizes that his game is limited to showing off in the local development to others as uninspired as himself.

not to say that it isnt a potent skill to balance a car during a powerslide, in fact it promotes a great connection between the driver and the car, and an acute knowledge of the car's limits.

[maxnix]

Thank you Eswift. The obvious is difficult to explain. People too often trust emotions and common misconceptions more than reason.

[Q45tech]

http://www-cdr.stanford.edu/dy...s.pdf

Each tire and each tire size is different but generally the tire cornering forces start to peak[3000Nm] by 4.5 degrees [slip angle] and remain fairly constant to 10 degrees [3800Nm] and fall by 15 degrees [3700Nm].

See graphs in above web site.

[Eswift]

thanks for the illustrated lesson dennis.

finally, a decent real-world application of the bastard science->(physics)

they better offer ME336 (automotive vehicle dynamics) sometime in the next two semesters here...otherwise ill have to stay a bit longer for some graduate school.

[Q45tech]

http://www.tut.fi/plastics/tyr..._1_13h ... Tyres.html

[stutt944]

Since drifting is sideways sliding, the narrowest rear tires you can find say a 75,70,65 series and extremely hard rubber compound...

ummm...wouldnt narrow tires be like around 165 or 155 or something? the series number refers to the sidewall height as a percentage of the treatwidth. so like a 155/70r15 or 14 would be more accurate, no?

[Q45tech]

The problem is you still have to have a tire that will support the weight load via the internal volume of air. When you go ultra narrow you have to have a 70-75-80 aspect area to gain the volume.......then the sidewalll is so squirmy you can't control...........given a choice, a harder compound and a normal size wider tire.