Nismo_Freak wrote:Guys, I'm not saying 16 year old kids are gonna be out there running wheel to wheel with the veterans in the matter of a month.

Basically for those of you who are interested, it's best to know that different setups ARE allowed, and it's something to work towards.

C'mon work with me here.

I hear you, and believe me, I'm all for it. I'm not trying to discourage *anyone* from racing. But I wanted to put out the realistic view point of it. I just don't want newbies in the racing scene to think they can just go out and race, and drive home, etc. I want them to realize this is real racing, you can't drive to the track in your race car, and it's not like "i put on an exhaust and intake, I'm ready to race" type of thing. I'm just trying to clarify the difference. There are track days, and there is racing. This is racing.

Hi From your friendly series director.

I am trying to write the rules to encorage particpation form the 240 comunity. There are so many caged 240's out there used in drifting and stuff and the car is such a natural for it, I am trying to redo the rules so more 240's can come out.

I am open to suggestions, what would you like to see?

Mike

Id personally like to see some kind of balance

IE a RB powered s14 needs more weight than a RB powered S13 that needs more powered than a SR powered s14, etc etc etc.

boost limit restrictions

brake restrictions

etc.

only problem with the drift guys is most of the big guys are running upgraded turbos. how would you classify that? i mean making it a true "unlimited" class would give the biggest advantage to the guy with the most moneywich sucks.

im just kinda ranting and throwing ideas out. show us a general idea on a rulebook and ill gladly give my opinion.

I kinda mentioned this as well due to the addition of the Z32 TT to NC1.

It really will make it biased, but honestly thats just how unrestricted classes go.

I'm on the fence on this one, but for one I think there should be a power limit set for the cars.

We don't want some guy out there in some 750whp RB28DET powered 2200 lb. S14 just waxing everyone else because he's got more money than anyone else has skill.

I'm sure at first there won't be big issues, but it might be beneficial to set a ceiling and go from there.

Unlimited brakes as long as they are steel, unlimited engine modifications, regulated chassis design, regulated DOT tires. All good ideas in my book.

I do think cars should work towards having to maintain Nissan factory appearance, but allowed to run aerodynamically beneficial components as well as Japanese and Euro Spec'd components.

Honestly we can't dilute the series by disallowing too much stuff else you will wind up with the same SCCA regulations that basically disallow just about anything even 80% of us do to our street cars!

It looks like you are on the right track Mike--Please keep up the campaign for 240s.

As for equalization--with such a wide variety of engines and mods for all the Nissans listed--you will never get parity. You will also get someone who always has or is willing to spend $$ to win. Minimum weights based on engines/chassis combo seems like a way to be fair. Many series use success ballast to also keep the cars in check.

But as the comment was made--do not make it to restrictive. Many casual people just need/want a place to play with a modified 240--and SCCA does not offer one for Turbo cars ( unless it is a Subie)

Focus on Safety and a place in the rules for all the combos and the rules will work themselves out over time.

Perhaps you can make a rule that requires any car that competes in a drifting series, such as Formula D, to abide by the vehicle restrictions in that series.

In other words, if it's illegal in Formula D, it should be illegal in SER cup. Ofcourse, that doesn't restrict power, but it does put atleast some type of cap on modifications.

And I don't think you'll have a problem with drift cars running too much power in SER cup. Most drift cars don't have a ton of power anyway, and nobody would want a be laggy turbo on a racetrack either.

I think the rules should focus more towards handling limits than power. And there isn't much of a problem there I don't think, as SE-R's can handle just as well as 240's, and vice versa, when set up properly.

I'd like to see some 240's commit to making it out first. There were a lot of rumors about some of the big drift names crossing over to SRX but no one did. Once we get some cars in there, we can see about what it takes to level the playing field. Regulating boost is almost imposible, CART and F-1 could not effectivly do it.

No one is really sure how the SR vs Turbo KA, vs RB thing works out, the RB has the nose heavy issues, the KA is going to have durabuilty issues I think and so on. Once cars start showing up, then we can start working on how to make things more fair as everyone gets experiance on how fast certain combos really are.

As far as having the most money makes more speed, its like that in any racing from autocross to F-1!

I

Nismo_Freak wrote:I kinda mentioned this as well due to the addition of the Z32 TT to NC1.

It really will make it biased, but honestly thats just how unrestricted classes go.

I'm on the fence on this one, but for one I think there should be a power limit set for the cars.

We don't want some guy out there in some 750whp RB28DET powered 2200 lb. S14 just waxing everyone else because he's got more money than anyone else has skill.

I'm sure at first there won't be big issues, but it might be beneficial to set a ceiling and go from there.

Unlimited brakes as long as they are steel, unlimited engine modifications, regulated chassis design, regulated DOT tires. All good ideas in my book.

I do think cars should work towards having to maintain Nissan factory appearance, but allowed to run aerodynamically beneficial components as well as Japanese and Euro Spec'd components.

Honestly we can't dilute the series by disallowing too much stuff else you will wind up with the same SCCA regulations that basically disallow just about anything even 80% of us do to our street cars!

I agree with you exactly. I want our cars to shadow what people are doing on the street instead of SCCA's restritive and anal rules. I bleive this is what gets people interested in racing, gets the magazines interested and what gets the manufactures of parts interestred.

People want to see tuner cars or cars that look like WC or JGTC cars racing, not cars that look like stock cars like SCCA IT or SS. I bleive that making the cars look good doesnt mean they cost more to run and I bleive that street type mods should be allowed.

I also belive that no one should be turned away from a race no matter what mods they might have as long as they meet safety requirments.

Hehehe, I also belive that a well built SR S13/14 can put the hurt on a 500 hp Z32 on a road course. I should know I have one, its a beast to drive. I have driven 400 hp S13's on a track and bleive they could spank nearly everything.

-mike

EZcheese15 wrote:Perhaps you can make a rule that requires any car that competes in a drifting series, such as Formula D, to abide by the vehicle restrictions in that series.

In other words, if it's illegal in Formula D, it should be illegal in SER cup. Ofcourse, that doesn't restrict power, but it does put atleast some type of cap on modifications.

And I don't think you'll have a problem with drift cars running too much power in SER cup. Most drift cars don't have a ton of power anyway, and nobody would want a be laggy turbo on a racetrack either.

I think the rules should focus more towards handling limits than power. And there isn't much of a problem there I don't think, as SE-R's can handle just as well as 240's, and vice versa, when set up properly.

Any drift car is legal in SRX right now as long as the safety specs are met. Trouble is most drift cars have cages and harness mounts that won't meet road race safety spec.

A lot of drifters think backwars as well thinking things like the chassis needs to flex, etc, so minimalistic cages are built. If done right, a car will do great in SRX and Drifting. Infact several drift guys I have talked to ro wroked with prefer a grip setup as it gives a more natural feel to the car. I htink the trend is going to be for using the same setup for grip and drift as the sport progresses.

For some reason I know a lot of drifters that think road racing is too hard, etc. Hell, I htink drifting is way harder,

smartbomb wrote:I'd like to see some 240's commit to making it out first. There were a lot of rumors about some of the big drift names crossing over to SRX but no one did. Once we get some cars in there, we can see about what it takes to level the playing field. Regulating boost is almost imposible, CART and F-1 could not effectivly do it.

No one is really sure how the SR vs Turbo KA, vs RB thing works out, the RB has the nose heavy issues, the KA is going to have durabuilty issues I think and so on. Once cars start showing up, then we can start working on how to make things more fair as everyone gets experiance on how fast certain combos really are.

As far as having the most money makes more speed, its like that in any racing from autocross to F-1!

i totally understand its very hard to regulate and even the playing field with such variations between cars. (btw the RB's arent nose heavy. its a myth) but i mean, to build a racecar. you need a class to race.

lets start with this, what are the cage regulations? if the rollcage im planning will pass tech for both drift and the SER Cup id be more than happy to run a few events.

All the rule can be found here:http://www.sercup.com/

smartbomb wrote:All the rule can be found here:http://www.sercup.com/

All the rule are belong to Mike

Oh and don't eat 2/3 lb. hamburgers after you just stood around in the sun all day. Boy do I feel like crap right now lol.

Appreciate you coming over to the forum.

Mike, welcome.

Good to finally have you aboard.

If you ever need anything, let me (or any of our moderators) know.

Thanks, I would really be dying to get more 240's out there. I know there is an interest but the awareness hasnet been there. I truely belive that the 240 is a vastly superior track car to most of the avalible cars out there. The word that they now have a place to play has to get out.

as far as keeping the cars competitive with all the different powerplants and whatnot, why not have what they do in JGTC and WC with the rewards weight added or subtracted based on finishing position

if you find that you have to constantly add weight to one chassis with one engine then you could accordingly raise that combination's minimum weight

Tah

nismofly wrote:as far as keeping the cars competitive with all the different powerplants and whatnot, why not have what they do in JGTC and WC with the rewards weight added or subtracted based on finishing position

if you find that you have to constantly add weight to one chassis with one engine then you could accordingly raise that combination's minimum weight

is really difficult to administer and adding ballest safely is something that is probably beyond many people belive it or not. Its hard to safely secure a heavy object in the car that can stand up to crash loads.

Belive it or not most people are not capable of building such a thing. Its hard enough to just make sure everyone has safe harnesses, roll cages and window nets.

25 lbs of ballest loose in the car in a crash is deadly. I have seen such things happen before.

EXCELLENT!!!! I have a 240 that I am building that I am dying to find a series like this to race in. I had a feeling the SRX class would turn into something like this.

why not classify cars into boost limit groups or HP groups proven with dyno sheets. its just going to be hard to regulate HP on cars with in car boost adjustment capabilities.

I am for sure in on this series, but It will probably be atleast another year until my car is driveable.

So Ted, ... wanna sell me that S4 TII

Nismo_Freak wrote:So Ted, ... wanna sell me that S4 TII

Hehe. Its my roommate's TII and currently its broken. I broke the shifter housing off while driving a couple weeks ago. I just got a E36 M3 and its definately not for sale.

RedSVTFlareside wrote:EXCELLENT!!!! I have a 240 that I am building that I am dying to find a series like this to race in. I had a feeling the SRX class would turn into something like this.

why not classify cars into boost limit groups or HP groups proven with dyno sheets. its just going to be hard to regulate HP on cars with in car boost adjustment capabilities.

I am for sure in on this series, but It will probably be atleast another year until my car is driveable.

Boost limit is imposible to enforce, CAT had a hard time and so did F1. A low tech group like us isnt going to be able to do it.

yeah the USTCC guys wonder about the WRX that Brian Lock races for that reason

so if you cant regulate boost what do you do? pretty much leave boost open?

wont that kinda go against the budget racing?

Kamin wrote:so if you cant regulate boost what do you do? pretty much leave boost open?

wont that kinda go against the budget racing?

No, you limit other things, like pistons, rods, turbo sizes, etc. Boost will limit itself.

EZcheese15 wrote:No, you limit other things, like pistons, rods, turbo sizes, etc. Boost will limit itself.

well yea but he just said he wants to try and get the drifters into this, the majority of drifters that dont just do it for light recreation, i.e. full blown track car, have upgraded turbos. i love this idea, dont get me wrong, i just dont see how we can level the playing field to where whoever has the most money dosent win.

see i don't like gong that route...because then you start with the custom machined "stock" parts and playign with inspection and protest bs. Having done karting in a "stock" motor class I personally will admit to having probably 1500-2000 in a block and head and around 500 in a rebuild. When you talk limiting things like that you can still spend money. the most money will always win.

From experience running a national karting schedule. We ran 2 karts competitively (my brothers somewhat so, mine EXTREMELY so) by which i mean we put a lot of money into it. With repairs fuel motors tires etc (usually 4 sets of tires a weekend as well as 2 motors) i probably spent for two karts and transportation around 4g per weekend. We rebuilt our motors every 4 hours of running time. People won with less, often a lot less, but thats what we spent to do it to the level we wanted.

So 1g per weekend is probably on the high side. I honestly don't think money would become an issue with any NASA series because they will never, because they are club racing, achieve the notoriety to make it profitable. Honda Challenge is a wonderful example of a series similar to this i think.

I personally thing that: unlimited cage and chassis reinforcement (yea money issue but its safety at the same time) unlimited motor and unlimited brakes (although steel i agree with nismo) and some spec tire would be good. if you want to put limits put them in tire size or put them in the form of air restrictors (purchased from organizers), or success ballast.

why not a class system like BMWCCA has

Stockpreparedunlimited

stock: interiors, weight, engine regulations

prepared: exceptions to the above with a more closely measured spec class

unlimited: people that don't competitively fit into the other classes or don't meet the restrictions of the other two classes.

RedSVTFlareside wrote:why not a class system like BMWCCA has

stock: interiors, weight, engine regulations

prepared: exceptions to the above with a more closely measured spec class

unlimited: people that don't competitively fit into the other classes or don't meet the restrictions of the other two classes.

How does BMWCCA police it?

RedSVTFlareside wrote:why not a class system like BMWCCA has

Stockpreparedunlimited

stock: interiors, weight, engine regulations

prepared: exceptions to the above with a more closely measured spec class

unlimited: people that don't competitively fit into the other classes or don't meet the restrictions of the other two classes.

This isn't auto-x.

Kamin wrote: i just dont see how we can level the playing field to where whoever has the most money dosent win.

You can't.

Limit boost, and the wealthier people will show up on $10 / gallon high octane fuel and an aggressive tune.

It's a never win situation, for those of us that have to run small budgets we will always have to overcome that. Hopefully these shortcomings make us work harder towards being a better driver. The machine is only as good as the driver behind it.

I personally want to just have fun, but still want it to be competetive to some degree. I don't think we will have a huge problem unlike the PCA events where you have 130hp vintage stock 911's on the track with 400+whp 911 GTx Cup cars.

Nismo_Freak wrote:
This isn't auto-x.

You're right, this isn't autoX, although those classes sound similar they are unrelated to SCCA and Solo II. I am talking about BMWCCA club racing. here's a link to their rules. its a good read, it might help in creating rules for a future nissan challenge series.

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.co...4.pdf

I think the only way is to make it competitive is to make cars meet power/displacement/turbo/boost(one or the other) and weight requirements. I know balasts can be dangerous if attached wrong, so make drivers attach weight balasts correctly! Balasts should be teched as well as cage, seat, restraint, helmet and suit, battery, fuel, etc....

I know its going to be hard to limit groups by HP, but by turbo size it does put some limits on what the motor can do. or a stock or prepared class that requires cars to have boost controll checked and adjusted from under the hood only.

I have no problem obeying rules, its part of the competitiveness of the sport. I don't want to have the fastest car and win every time. I want there to be some type of competition.