my comments on 248/240 s13 cam swap

Information on the naturally-aspirated KA24E and KA24DE engines.
struckinc
Posts: 316
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:23 am
Car: 93 hatch.stock.well mostly anyway-SOLD
97 kouki-stock
12 sentra sr-wifes new car
97 maxima-wifes car-SOLD
02 maxima se- daily
1936 austin 10/4 lichfield

Postby struckinc » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:50 am

just an additon for yall. i installed the altima 248 cam on my intake with a s14 232 on my exhaust. my first impression was HOLY SH&T!!!! i recently built my motor from the ground up and wondered why all of my power was in top end. this swap put all of the missing power between 3k and 5k. i havent had it dyno'd yet but plan to in the next week or 2. only problem is i didnt dyno before the swap.


User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:11 am

it feels great dont it?

its taken nearly a year, but we first dispelled the myth about 91 cams.

Now we are freeing up 248 cams from people running 248/248.

the next step is to try redrilling your own gears. i dont want the bent valves that may result, however. but 50 bucks says im going to be the one doing it.

all tis going to take is 1 protractor, and one set of adjustable cam gear instructions from jim wolf technology's website, and a whole lot of cursing.

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby InsanityInc » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:52 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:it feels great dont it?

its taken nearly a year, but we first dispelled the myth about 91 cams.

Now we are freeing up 248 cams from people running 248/248.

the next step is to try redrilling your own gears. i dont want the bent valves that may result, however. but 50 bucks says im going to be the one doing it.

all tis going to take is 1 protractor, and one set of adjustable cam gear instructions from jim wolf technology's website, and a whole lot of cursing.
Don't some JWT retailers still sell the adjustable gears? They were decently cheap last time I checked.

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:39 am

i'm not really sure, i guarantee you can find some somewhere, but i dont have the money. i do however, have several extra sets of gears.

im not going to run into any trouble just drilling ONE hole, as im only looking to make a 248 work a little more correctly on the intake side.

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby InsanityInc » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:47 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:i'm not really sure, i guarantee you can find some somewhere, but i dont have the money. i do however, have several extra sets of gears.

im not going to run into any trouble just drilling ONE hole, as im only looking to make a 248 work a little more correctly on the intake side.
Well, the thing the key on the cam goes into is more of a slot. Or am I totally missing what you're planning to do?

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:58 am

yeah you're absolutely right.

however, on the JWT gears they have this key as well. But then there are i believe seven holes drilled that fit this pin.

you can then go around with a stamp and stamp numbers and letters just like the JWT cams, or you like me, you just stamp one.

i \'m only going to drill one because im not sure how much you weaken the gear by drilling, and if there is some heat treating involved in the JWT gears.

either way, check out the jwt gears, they have the "stock" slot, but then they are drilled for 7 different positions i believe. i just need one.

I've retarded my 248 before, but im not going to say how, because someone is going to try it and end up with bent valves. all i will say is that one of my 248s has a problem with the pin. it held for about 200 miles, but then i got too scared. i love the results so i want something safer and more exact.... for the same price of free.

User avatar
Ajax
Posts: 1643
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:16 pm
Car: 1991 240sx SE
2010 Mazda 5

Postby Ajax » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:27 am

Enjuku has JWT cam gears for $150

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby InsanityInc » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:23 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:yeah you're absolutely right.

however, on the JWT gears they have this key as well. But then there are i believe seven holes drilled that fit this pin.

you can then go around with a stamp and stamp numbers and letters just like the JWT cams, or you like me, you just stamp one.

i \'m only going to drill one because im not sure how much you weaken the gear by drilling, and if there is some heat treating involved in the JWT gears.

either way, check out the jwt gears, they have the "stock" slot, but then they are drilled for 7 different positions i believe. i just need one.

I've retarded my 248 before, but im not going to say how, because someone is going to try it and end up with bent valves. all i will say is that one of my 248s has a problem with the pin. it held for about 200 miles, but then i got too scared. i love the results so i want something safer and more exact.... for the same price of free.
Hm. Well, just make sure that you get the hole pretty exact, otherwise the gear will sit lopsided on the cam, and I can't imagine that's very good for... anything.

Though, if you're retarding the intake (obviously for the purposes of a later intake closing), you might want to consider going back to 248/248. Most of the low-end loss of the 248/248 setup is due to the increased overlap, but retarding the intake cam will decrease the overlap.

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:28 pm

Psssssh ajax.... we're not all made of 150 dollars. or else trust me i would do it to it

Oh and insanity, i said this, but it was a page ago, but the point of redrilling the cam gear is to go back to 248/248. i wanna get my comparesons down flat. now that we are hearing the 248s are really 241 while 240s are really 227s....

i was going to do this for use in conjunction with my intake manifold. But it looks liek if we stay ENTIRELY on schedule, that wont be done for about another two to three weeks. step one should be this friday where im getting the alum plate milled.

i just want a good butt dyno feel of how 248/248 is really supposed to feel. but once again you assume right, thats exactly the idea.

and ajax, we need to get together soon too. till then take care tho

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby InsanityInc » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:56 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:
Oh and insanity, i said this, but it was a page ago, but the point of redrilling the cam gear is to go back to 248/248. i wanna get my comparesons down flat. now that we are hearing the 248s are really 241 while 240s are really 227s....
Well, people can pretty much call it whatever they want. All depends on where you measure.

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:01 pm

correctemundo.

its pretty much just Cam A, B, C, D. and i havent even got a hold of E, F, or G.

there's probably some more variables i cant afford.

but my point is: you're correct about being careful on the re-drill. this is a job that would be better left up to the professionals. its not something you can simply drill larger, because "larger," could be a degree or so different.

its still worth a shot though

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Postby InsanityInc » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:22 pm

Well, just remember to measure once and cut twice!

... or was that the other way around?

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:39 pm

i think it was like jb weld twice, something, something....

B33FST3W
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:57 am
Car: 1995 240sx

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby B33FST3W » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 pm

Ok, so I did the 248/232 swap today (by taking a s13 exhaust and puting it on my s14s intake) and the car feels slower now, and idles rougher? Is my timing off somewhere? I did the whole 4 teeth CCW for the exhaust and Im pretty sure the intake is still in the same spot. I dont know what else it could be. Thanks for any help.

Stew

User avatar
ORL240
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:34 pm
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby ORL240 » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:18 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:so.... say ive been thinking about producing this intake manifold....

it would be stock upper runners, with a plate of 6061 t-6 welded to the runners, with a radiused entry. then you would bolt on an 11 gauge (just shy of 1/8 inch thick) steel plenum. this would be strictly for all-motor. the only included part would be a throttle cable holder. you only get brake booster and fpr vacuum sources.
i'd be willing 2 pay $300 - $400 for a custom ka intake manifold.

i have spoken with mazworx in orlando and they quoted over $700 for a one-off manifold.

get on it dj, intake manifold along with our crappy oem tuning is biggest obstacles to top end hp on the ka

keep us posted on mani progress and thanks for bustin all ka cam myths n getting all of us some very critical ka enlightenment

User avatar
mmm240
Posts: 6587
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:22 pm
Car: 95 240sx KADE-T, 94 Toyota Pickup, 91 GVR4, 03 Toyota Matrix XR

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby mmm240 » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:39 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote: i can think of like 6 people who love N/A KAs
mark me down as #7! do it, DO IT!seriously though i would definetely get one!

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:19 am

Okay, well the wheels are in motion, but like i said im not gonna sell anything until i am sure its better for NA then the xcessive unit (which it will be...)

i could sell this as a much cheaper kit that would force you to cut your own runners and heve the plate welded on. this would make everything a lot cheaper, as there wouldnt be the cost for your to ship your runners to me.

i dont wanna say too much or write too many checks my butt cant cash, but i cant wait to get the new intake manifold on the car. I'm sick of not chirping into second and third anymore. stupid sticky tires and stock intake manifold....

User avatar
mmm240
Posts: 6587
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:22 pm
Car: 95 240sx KADE-T, 94 Toyota Pickup, 91 GVR4, 03 Toyota Matrix XR

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby mmm240 » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:34 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote: I'm sick of not chirping into second and third anymore. stupid sticky tires and stock intake manifold....
haha, how about stock tires and your manifold? that should get ya chirpin' or full revolutioning (ya i make up words)

User avatar
ORL240
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:34 pm
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx

Postby ORL240 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:08 pm

has anyone figured how to identify our cams once they are out of an engine?are there any way of visual distinguishing 240 cams from 248 cams or 232 cams?Let say i have a few ka cams sitting around but i don't know where they came from or I purchased a set used and want to be sure they are what I paid for b4 i throw em in my engine and bend a few valves.

don't kno if this means ne thing but when i swapped in my set of s13 into a my s14 head, one cam had orange stripe and other had a green stripe, but both of the cams had a # 4 stamped into the stem right at the middle of the cam.
Modified by ORL240 at 4:18 PM 9/19/2006

User avatar
InsanityInc
Posts: 2521
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:43 am
Contact:

Re: (ORL240)

Postby InsanityInc » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:11 pm

ORL240 wrote:has anyone figured how to identify our cams once they are out of an engine?are there any way of visual distinguishing 240 cams from 248 cams or 232 cams?Let say i have a few ka cams sitting around but i don't know where they came from or I purchased a set used and want to be sure they are what I paid for b4 i throw em in my engine and bend a few valves.
A protractor and a straightedge?

User avatar
ORL240
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:34 pm
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx

Re: (InsanityInc)

Postby ORL240 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:40 pm

InsanityInc wrote:
A protractor and a straightedge?
please elaborate

User avatar
ORL240
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:34 pm
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx

Re: (ORL240)

Postby ORL240 » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:48 pm

ORL240 wrote:
don't kno if this means ne thing but when i swapped in my set of s13 into a my s14 head, one cam had orange stripe and other had a green stripe, but both of the cams had a # 4 stamped into the stem right at the middle of the cam.

Modified by ORL240 at 4:18 PM 9/19/2006
heres a pic of the cams in my ka right now. im pretty sure they are a set of s13 cams but i dont kno 4 sure.

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:39 am

Okay, all this information is EASILY found, and im pretty sure its even in this thread somewhere.

so all im gonna add is this: dont trust green and orange marks... but i havent had any problems doing so. the nunmbers are not helpful

exhaust cams (excluding 98 cams) have the pin on the cam to the left of the centerline for the first lobe. intake cams have the pin in the same centerline as the first lobe.

once you've determined if you have an intake or an exhaust cam, you can use the colors. s13s exhaust cams are orange, and intakes are green. s14 exhausts are green, and intakes are orange, so its just the opposite.

i think someone was stoned as hell when they made that decision at Nissan. so with this info, you should still be able to figure it out. the pics you show are useless, you need to look at the pin location.

As far as my intake manifold, if anyone reads this, i will soon have some access to software for my work with FSAE called Vectis. this is a simulator that uses computational fluid dynamics to model intake and exhaust manifolds. as soon as i get my **** done on the FSAE car i can model my own manis.

only problem is this will be months away, after the proto-types hav been finished. good for future designs though.

User avatar
GlacierFreeze
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Car: '97 240sx (the tortise)

Postby GlacierFreeze » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:11 am

Any reason the intake mani you plan on making wouldn't be good in a turbo + better cams setup??

User avatar
Ajax
Posts: 1643
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:16 pm
Car: 1991 240sx SE
2010 Mazda 5

Postby Ajax » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:59 am

Okay, enough people seem to be on board. With my next paycheck, I will have enough to purchase the Xcessive unit.Then we can take DJ's car, dyno with both manifolds and we'll go from there.

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Re: (GlacierFreeze)

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:39 pm

yes sir, it would be less than ideal for turbo. xcessive motorsports has already handled the turbo manifold. it even says on their site that they tested something like three plenums, and two or three runner lengths. But they said they tested this on a stock and a built KA-T.

the site didnt used ot say that when it first debuted. xcessive already handled the turbo plenum, it looks to be about 2.4 liters, which is what you want for a boosted motor. i'll designing something for natural aspiration, so it originally was around 67% of that volume.

so, you'll throw down twice the money, but you'll get a much better product. sheet metal plenum vs cast aluminum, i cant possibly offer that.

Ajax, you got plenty of time with that, so no need to rush. my friend who is doing the milling cant measuremy template well enough, so im going to have to model it in ProE, then i'll be able to print it out in full scale, and see if it fits the runners correctly. I need another week at a minimum unfortunately. so please take your time with buying that Dave, we got all the time in the world, almost.

User avatar
mmm240
Posts: 6587
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:22 pm
Car: 95 240sx KADE-T, 94 Toyota Pickup, 91 GVR4, 03 Toyota Matrix XR

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby mmm240 » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:08 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:As far as my intake manifold, if anyone reads this, i will soon have some access to software for my work with FSAE called Vectis. this is a simulator that uses computational fluid dynamics to model intake and exhaust manifolds. as soon as i get my **** done on the FSAE car i can model my own manis.

only problem is this will be months away, after the proto-types hav been finished. good for future designs though.
i'm still on board and very interested. i don't mind waiting for a good product!

User avatar
DjPantsSpecR
Posts: 1711
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Car: 93 MS13 92 RMS13

Postby DjPantsSpecR » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:07 am

Okay good, because even in this cold weather (39 degrees) i still cant chirp this yokohama avs es100s.

We had no problem doing this with two people in the car and my JB weld manifold. There is clearly a serious amount of power to be made with this new manifold.

i appreciate the amount of inquiry im getting. i also realize that with putting time into the race car, it's possible i will only have time to make a limited amount of these manifolds.

now, im not looking so much as to profit from the KA community, but rather to raise a few eyebrows. for this reason i'm considering producing the directions, as well as ProE models and fully dimensioned machinists drawings. This would give people the ability to get the runners cut at a specific length, and then have the adapter plate milled independantly. they would also be responsible for having it welded. However, you could do do all of these steps here for around 50-70 dollars including materials i imagine. i know it would cost me a lot less.

then the plenum can be made by literally anyone with any amount of sheet metal experience. Then instead of paying Xcessive motorsports 115 dollars to upgrade to the Q45 TB, just drill the sheet metal to fit. i would give my specific plenum, but it'll be easy to see by the plate that you could make almost any size plenum that you want to fit. your limitations are the strut tower and the hood support. which i must mention i had to cut away a small amount to clear the TPS. i currently used the stock tb cable holder, but i cut alot and drilled a hole. it bolts through the manifold, but i am designing one that bolts to the TB.

the only problem i have with giving it away is someone who is more capable with jsut start producing these for sale.

User avatar
mmm240
Posts: 6587
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:22 pm
Car: 95 240sx KADE-T, 94 Toyota Pickup, 91 GVR4, 03 Toyota Matrix XR

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby mmm240 » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:24 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:the only problem i have with giving it away is someone who is more capable with jsut start producing these for sale.
i'm sure that will happen. seriously produce the product and sell it for a profit. you put in the work and time, you deserve not just the respect you will get from us (also if and when this someone produces these because of your info you will no longer be mentioned for coming up with it first) but a profit as well! to you buddy!!!

User avatar
spank044
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:56 am
Car: 1992 240sx with a Supercharged 350Z VQ for a HEART!

Re: (DjPantsSpecR)

Postby spank044 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:25 am

DJpants, when you figure out the drilling on the 248 cam gear I want to be the first one to buy it or have the info. I am currently running 248/232 cams and anything t make it work better I would love to have.

Keep up the great work.

One other question. Do I need to adjust my exhaust cam any. No problems yet, but are there any gains anywhere else?


Return to “KA24E / KA24DE Forum”