my comments on 248/240 s13 cam swap

Post by **drEameRvaJ** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:41 am

So I post a reply to the sticky up there but no one replied. I was wondering what's the best combo of S13 cams to put in a S14 head (I'm running KA-T if that makes any difference) and how are the chains suppose to be lined up? Is the JWT instructions for S13 cams in a S13 head or S13 cams in a S14?

Anyone with suggestions, let me know. THANKS! =)

Post by **Anto** » Thu May 24, 2007 2:06 am

Thank you sir, I appreciate it!

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:43 am

a great KA-T swap IMO is 240/232.

BUT 240/248 could be made to do the same thing.

OR, you could set up 248/248 to emulate the opening and closing events of the Crower V2's which i believe is 4ATDC and 12ATDC, i think.

so, in other words, there is no "best" setup

s13 and s14 cam set up is identical regarding the timing mark.

Post by **Kaze** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:06 pm

OMG ive read almost everything....my eyes hurt.....and im more confused now....

MY 93 S13 has the orange Exhaust mark (and engraved E on the cam) the ?Intake has a green mark and has an (I engraved),....what i wanted to do was get another E cam from a 91-93 S13, and put it on my Intake side......to have 248/248 (E/E) set up, all i have is a CAI, 2" straight pipping and an exhaust , for now......all i wanted was to have a little fun with the KA until either rebuilt or SR.........

Should i do the 248/248 E/E on my engine? please let me know.....

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:57 pm

nah, im not sure you'll be satisfied, liek i said 248/248 with stock gears sucks. it has a peak hp gain, but a loss everywhere in camparo to say a 240/232

drill your own cam gears, then try the "tre" set up as suggested for the stock 240/248 s13 cams. you'll do less work, get a better gain, and its free. all courtesy of me.

and then you can try 248/248 with gears

Post by **drEameRvaJ** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:11 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:nah, im not sure you'll be satisfied, liek i said 248/248 with stock gears sucks. it has a peak hp gain, but a loss everywhere in camparo to say a 240/232

drill your own cam gears, then try the "tre" set up as suggested for the stock 240/248 s13 cams. you'll do less work, get a better gain, and its free. all courtesy of me.

and then you can try 248/248 with gears

So how would the timing chain need to be lined up to run 240/248 on a S14 head? Or how would the cams need to face? I don't want to end up with bent valves.

Let me know. THANKS!

Post by **neverlift** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:03 am

at this point man I would like to ask you to step away from the cam stuff. But its up to you. IF you read what you should have already you would know how to set the cam for your s14,and how to check if you gonna bend a valve. RE~READ please. I'm worried you gonna mess you car upI recommend asking someone to show you or pay a shop to do it,and watch them closely.This is not a project that you can easily fix IF something goes wrong. IE you do bend a valve, wtf you gonna get one(or all of them) on the spot. no not everyone is like dj.

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:30 am

i shouldnt even say this because neverlift is right.

but 240/248 in an s14 head will have the cam gears in the exact same position as the stock 232/232 cams.

bending a valve sucks, and you wont bend a valve, you'll bend 6-12. and a set is around 200 bucks. then you need them cut and laped in, so you need the head taken off and disassembled. Which is a semi-daunting task.

Post by **neverlift** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:49 am

like I say man do I know

chase you ever gonna compile this stuff? I do give the people some "credit" its alot to go over to find stuff specific to you.

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:35 am

its a lot of complete **** to go over.

I should, but i need to know what really needs to be compiled. I have a balls load of time.

Also since i will be starting another all motor 240 soon, as soon as i get a camera i can do the DIY intake manifold vac and emissions removal writeup.

the things i do to find your guys free horsepower.

Post by **wannabe_drifter** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:27 pm

I wanted to give some feedback about the 248/232 cam swapI have done the swap on a S13 without the drilled cam and my car is completely stock.

The only thing I can notice is that the power falls off around 5900 rpm even more than before but other than that I didnt notice much, if anything I cannot feel it. So personnally I don't feel this is an improvement at all.

I might go back to the old setup unless I try to drill the cam gear wich I might do since I got alot of time on my hands these days.

I did it like this

EDIT: the pics are not from my car but the cams are setup like so
Modified by wannabe_drifter at 8:38 PM 6/12/2007

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:02 pm

well no of course not..... those are from the stcky.

and yeah 248/232 is as bogus as a 248/248 swap without timing gears.

try 240/232 and tell you how you like the low end.

i spent three hours today trying to figure out why the 4 tooth method works for 248s. All i learned as this:

while the stock cams are technically 173 degrees apart, or 187, depending on how you look at it (im still working on it) the four tooth method (technically 8 tooth, 4 to get the exhaust cam into place on the intake side, and then 4 more to get it into place) only rotates the gear to be 151.52 degrees. However, since the shims arent at a 90 degree angle to the normal it seriously complicates the calculation. this is where the extra missing 30 degrees is at, as each bank of buckets sits at around 15 degrees to the normal. However, without actually knowing the angle that they sit, the calculation is impossible.

and using a degree wheel and a feeler gauge isnt exactly going to be correct, especially with timing chain slack. So, im still working on exactly what setting needs to be used to get the 248 to 1 degree ATDC when used on the intake side.

its much more complicated than it first seems, i challenge anyone to figure it out with me, as all the previous theory offered by tloof and myself is HIGHLY questionable.

Post by **wannabe_drifter** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:53 pm

I haven't spent any time yet looking at all the technical stuff about the cams, I mean the exact degrees the valves open at and how to get it for the best result. I may sometime but I don't feel like thinking real hard right now I just finished school for summer so my brain wants to take a little break at least!!

Anyway, just went for another ride with the 248/232 setup and it does feel like its got a little more midrange but I think I'd still like to have the top end it had before.

Gotta try to drill that cam gear soon see how it feels after

Post by **struckinc** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:47 am

DjPantsSpecR wrote:and using a degree wheel and a feeler gauge isnt exactly going to be correct, especially with timing chain slack. So, im still working on exactly what setting needs to be used to get the 248 to 1 degree ATDC when used on the intake side..

so that is what we are shooting for? that is optimal ign. cam timing? and is that for all setups or is it because that is where nissan puts all of their intake cams? are you trying to get the intake to 1 degree so you can start tuning cam timing from there or just get it there and leave it?

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:24 am

The problem that I notice through out this whole thread that is pissing me off is that no one has cared to adjust fuel or ignition with the changes of the cam.

If you look at 1995-1998 engine and OBD2 ecu that use a 232/232 set up ignition timing is advanced and the engines run slightly leaner at higher RPMs than the 91-93KA24de's. I don't even care to mention the difference in compression ratio's that a 91-93 engines have compared to 95-98 engines.Really it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when you switch cams you have to adjust fuel as well as ignition. Changing the duration of a cam means you will need to change the fuel curve it's that simple. It changes the scope of CFM and Dependant on RPMEven on TRE's set up no matter how Archaic that it is for a setup he used an SAFC and ran 14.9 in the 1/4 mile, with a stinken' header and CAT back exhaust with the 7retard on INT, and the 5retard on to EX!!!!!You can't just swap cams possibly thinking you are going to make power. It doesn't work like that.Sorry but this thread has gotten ridiculously retarded.

So while you guys d!ck around swapping and switching cams for a 3HP gain there are others that change there fuel curve and ignition to make 10HP gains..

Really when you guys swap and mess around with cams you should get a wide band so that you can see the difference in your A/F ratio's and then make proper adjustments in fuel with an SAFC or an ecu tune what ever you prefer.
Modified by Bigvinnie at 11:17 AM 6/13/2007

Post by **struckinc** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:04 am

actually i have a bikirom that is getting installed and tuned as we speak. i wanted to have the cams set correctly so when i bring it in for the tune its a one shot deal. also installing 440 injectors and a q45 afm at the same time. anytime you change anything over a few horsepower it needs to be retuned to operate properly

Post by **neverlift** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am

part of my reasons for not mucking with it yet..... but now I got the dohc running on ec1 sohc code you best believe if my turbo dream falls off I'm jumping in.but yes tuning is a must after mods like this.

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:52 am

I just don't understand the point of this thread??? I've been trying to keep my fat mouth shut for quite some time about the issue hoping some one would come across vital information as to a/f ratio's. Checking and swapping cams to see there power output is kind of null and void if you think about it especially when you don't have important collected data, your not going to be exceeding any high exponential dyno numbers past stock HP output.Even Brian Crower cams recommend properly tunning there cams to make power.PDM has yet to show any net gains for there cams without the addition of a header, pulley, and exhaust modification. Who really knows what the NET gains are just for there cams that they charge almost $700 smackers for...

Really without any doubt my 240/248 combo stock shows more net gains just advancing the distributor and adding more fuel with the SAFC. KNOCK and PING is up like a son of a bi$CH (at about 50KNOCK points in 90 degree weather) but thats why when you step up to modifications like this you have to use the correct octane rating as well. Which here in california I can't find more than 91 octane at the pump, when I should be using 96 octane or better for my advanced timing and A/F ratio's.

This whole thread is bull sH%T without proper documentation of A/Fr's, and timing adjustments as well as dyno results... Thats it in a nut shell....

Sorry if you guy's think I'm an A$$hole but none of this information is relative, sure a couple good points were made by DJ and Tloof but there are some pages of rambling non sense.....

Modified by Bigvinnie at 2:37 PM 6/13/2007

Post by **neverlift** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:30 pm

I agree your an a$$hole and I even got off topic a few hundred times.... j/k

another reason I am not too willing to try/doc this stuff is my dohc swap is kinda funky(wiring is done by a tool) and its running off a stanza ecu yes 8 bit sohc runs like a raped ape. So I'm gonna figure this out first(probably before I boost as well)....

one day I'll talk chase into composing this but life is so busy these days....

out

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:43 pm

well obviously, youre right Vin....

but is it better to keep all this information bottled up? If no one has any idea what cam swaps are out there, or how to do them, or even how to use adjustable cam gears, how are they going to know how to change their fuel and timing curves as well?

i mean seriously, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? few people are going to be able to just do both at the same time. i'm only putting the information out there, i'm not suggesting what is best.

i've ONLY encouraged people to try different things. Do you also go around insulting people who just tune with SAFC on stock cams, and critcize them for not swaping to make greater gains? trust me, if i had the money for an SAFC and a wideband, id do it. But for now, there is no problem with finding free horsepower.

And btw vin, are you trying to say that s13 DEs and S14 DEs have different compression ratios?

Stuckinc, yeah what i was working on was jsut getting a 248 to the stock 240 setting, so adjustments could be made from there.

But i guess since this thread is so entirely ridiculous, i'll jsut keep any new findings to myself. good luck people.

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:55 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:
And btw vin, are you trying to say that s13 DEs and S14 DEs have different compression ratios?

Yes they do the heads even have different I.D numbers for the model years.91-93 have a 9.2:1 CR95-98 have a 9.5:1 CRPistons went unchanged, the pentroof design is shrunken on the 95-98 heads. This was actual information collected from Nissan. This is one of the many reasons why the cam profile changed, and the ignition timing was significantly advanced on OBD2. You might as well say that the 232/232 cam combination on the OBD2 KA24de's is maxed out, and the OBD2's show larger HP increases as the Octane rating is improved.The only thing I cant confirm for sure is if 1995 OBD1 engines still used a 91-93 head type.

I've taken a lot of time compiling the information and looking at spare parts.

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:01 pm

ha, then its yet another instance where the FSM is wrong. I'm sure you know what im talking about

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:14 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:ha, then its yet another instance where the FSM is wrong. I'm sure you know what im talking about

The FSM doesn't even clarify what CAMS are in the 1993 engine.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why scv's are used on lower compression engines either. Lower compression engines such as the KAe and KA24de until 92 that use scv's don't react very good to cold weather on start up, it would of caused idle issues until the engine would warm up.
Modified by Bigvinnie at 4:29 PM 6/13/2007

Post by **DjPantsSpecR** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:59 pm

just for anyone reading this im positive Vinnie means the MANUFACTURING date for the motors, not the "year" of the car.

I too am very curious to know what cams the 94 Verts had... I've heard conflicting information, even so far as to say that the first half of production had early OBDi cams and SCVs, and the second half had the late OBDi stuff like early 95 motors. It actually makes sense in a way, if they were trying to use leftover stock.... But it doesnt explain the 95 obdi to obdii thing.... why would they be doing this for two years?

thats very interesting about the SCVs i hadn't even thought about that.

One of my favorite instances of a FSM error is on the 91-94 edition on the cam durations page. All the info is correct about the opening and closing events, but in the total duration they switched around the 240 and the 248.... I'm sure that caused some confusion in the early years of 240dom.

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:33 pm

DjPantsSpecR wrote:just for anyone reading this im positive Vinnie means the MANUFACTURING date for the motors, not the "year" of the car.

Thats correct if you look at the production date of the convertibles they were anywhere as far MARCH and august of 1993 and sold by NOV~DEC of 1993 for the 1994 model year. It's weird that it took time to switch production to the the S14 chassis, since all the DE engines were built in fukuoka Japan there is a time when I believe that some 95 s14 OBD1 used a 91-93 head type since Nissan doesn't waste production efforts on there parts bin assembly's.

It's also not to clear if 93 productions are all 232/232 or 240/232.

I would also like to add that if infact the data is correct and the 93 production year KA24de does use 232/232 this is what makes it the slowest KA24de 240sx to date, not to mention that HICAS KA24de 240sx's are the slowest of them all because of the additional power steering fluid that they have to pump. If in fact the 93 production year uses a 9.2:1 CR ratio head and 232/232 cams, it is perfect reasoning as to why it is slower than the 95-98KA24de's that use a 9.5:1 head with 232/232 CAMS.

Modified by Bigvinnie at 9:58 AM 6/14/2007

Post by **WI_S14_Goldie** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:02 am

just did the S13 cam swap not to long ago and yeah...u can tell a difference...I ran my buddies 95 civic coupe with a GSR motor on the innerstate and He didn't pull on me at all...that car ran 14.3 with semi-slicks out at the tracks....but then again my motor's pretty damn healthy....LoL prettty good bang for the buck!

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:01 am

WI_S14_Goldie wrote:just did the S13 cam swap not to long ago and yeah...u can tell a difference...

Would that be 240INT/248EX?Or 248INT/240EX?

240/248 makes more power on the OBD2's without much tuning involved. The 248 on the exhaust picks up the exhaust pulse, and helps scavaging IMO.

Post by **WI_S14_Goldie** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:33 pm

240/248

Post by **Bigvinnie** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:24 pm

WI_S14_Goldie wrote:240/248

YES!!!! Just as I thought!!!!

Post by **wannabe_drifter** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:56 am

How can I know what year is my motor from ?!?!I bought the car and the guy told me the engine had been changed but I got no clue from what year it is ...

The car is a 93 but the motor ... I only know it has been taken from an automatic car ...

also does the 93 engine really have 232/232 cam setup !!

That is getting quite confusing

my comments on 248/240 s13 cam swap

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How to know motor year

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