Lets discuss my CA18DET build..

[hydra]

Hey all,I'm in the process of gathering parts for my CA18DET, and I wanted to compare notes with those of you "in the know" about a few things. I've already purchased a GT2860R dash 5 turbo (almost the same as the RS) with a 0.64 A/R ceramic coated exhaust housing, and already have a nice Mustang/Taurus Electric Fan lying around. My goals are to make a genuine 320-340bhp @ no more than 20psi while maintaining the best throttle-response and lowest boost threshold possible. Since I have a 4.36:1 rear end, I'd also like to extend my powerband as much as possible, shifting at 7500-8000rpm. Here are the mods I have planned:

- 3" turbo-back exhaust with divorced wastegate elbow

- Custom water/air intercooler setup in place of the battery. The idea is to reducing intake piping volume as much as possible for better throttle response.

- N62/N60/E60/P60 MAF depending on price and local availability. Any suggestions input or feedback?

- I'd like to keep the stock exhaust manifold, and maybe ceramic coat it. Again, the idea is to maximize response. How much power would I be giving up compared to an "ebay special" manifold? More than a handful of bhp?

- Walbro 225lph in-tank, is it true that these things regularly bump up fuel pressure from 36psi to 43psi on our engines or can I not count on that when sizing my injectors?

- Speaking of injectors, a friend with a turbo CRX has a set of 444cc R32 GT-R injectors he's willing to swap with my stock 370s. Trouble is that I know these are too small unless I bump up the fuel pressure with an adjustable FPR, in which case I'd be better off buying a bigger set of injectors in the first place.Possible choice include 460cc RX7 injectors (still too small), 550cc RX7 injectors, and 560cc Mitsubishi Evo injectors (my first choice because I can source them locally)What, if anything, is needed to make these physically fit?

I'd also like to upgrade the intake cam, using either a CA18DET exhaust cam or a Tomei 256 Poncam intake with the stock DET exhaust. The difference may be only 8 degrees between the two, with the same max lift, but how much fatter/more aggressive is the Tomei grind than the stock 248 degree lobes?

- Custom short-runner intake manifold with secondary butterfly delete. From what I understand this will really make a difference between 6000-8000rpm without much of a penalty in midrange torque

- A nice water-injection setup to top it all off and squeeze that last 20bhp out of the engine

- Finally, a suitable ROM tune. Would I be better off with a mail-in tune or should I tune it myself?

I'd love to hear your comments/input on my proposed build. How reasonable is it to push 20psi and 8000rpm on a stock-block CA18DET? This of course assumes the engine is in good shape to begin with, and that the tuning is spot on...

[Nunook]

if u plan on that power range and shifting at that rpm, i would change the exhaust manifold or atleast port a little.

also dont go with the mail in tunes. every one Ive seen so far suck. except like a tomei tune but its still better to have UR car tuned.

[Ca_Silvia]

Injectors- go with the 550 no question

N62- simple easy proven

Save you money on the intake manifold

I do prefer the ebay manifolds so your call.

If you plan on spending the money, ecspecially with water injection DO NOT just get a rom tune. Go stand alone.

[jt15833]

pics of air-water IC setup? I am interested in this setup but debating as well. it's either that or a v-mount for me, i desire the short IC pipes.

anyone know if these are able to cool better than air-air setups? I have researched a little and for what i concluded, they do better for sprints but once the water heats up it is not as efficient cooling.

nice build though wish i could add more.

[Rin5]

pics pics pics...! hehe this sounds interesting i wanna take a peek

[ca18detgabby]

pics of air-water IC setup? I am interested in this setup but debating as well. it's either that or a v-mount for me, i desire the short IC pipes.

anyone know if these are able to cool better than air-air setups? I have researched a little and for what i concluded, they do better for sprints but once the water heats up it is not as efficient cooling.

nice build though wish i could add more.

Water cooled are generally less efficent and require a secondary pump and often a secondary source to flow the water(coolant or w/e) through the IC itself. The washer sprayer is usually the tank utilzed, but you are going to need a secondary pump. We debated using the stock MS6 pump and running a water cooled setup on the MS6 IC setup, but it isnt efficent enough to flow and try and redirect the radiator fluid. It also leads to a hotter fluid transfer.

they are pretty ideal for drag cars as you can then use ICE in the water source to make the water as cold as possible.... but street driving this isnt effective at all and the charge is not cooled as much as a similar setup with a FMIC would yeild.

N62s are a great choice but arent they only good for 300 or so WHP? or am I think of the N60s?

I have to P60 mafs sitting in storage. they are fing huge.

def want to go standalone with water/meth. going to be about the same price or even cheaper than just about any rom tune.

if 444s are free...... I would take them and run...... u can upgrade later, but might as well take them and run. The evo injectors tend to be all over the board on flow from what others have experienced....... I would shy away from those.

the stock mani is good for alot of HP, other than it is a bit of a pain to remove.

PS with proper tuning.... anything is possible. If you are really worried about lag, there is always cheater juice......

[hydra]

Sorry but you're wrong about a few things. Water to air intercoolers (with their own dedicated water supply and circulation pump) have HIGHER effectiveness in addition to lower pressure drops than even the most beastly of air/air setups. For instance the very largest intercooler cores you can buy on ebay have Effectiveness values on the order of 70-75% with an internal volume of over 15L for the IC alone, whereas a water/air heat exchanger would have an effectiveness on the order of 80% (this depends on the pump used) with internal volumes a third of the air/air unit. I should have mentioned that I'm building my car for hillclimbs/road racing so the usual drag racing tricks (e.g. NAWSS) aren't on the cards.

N60 MAFs are supposedly good for anywhere between 310-350bhp, and they're readily available where I live hence my interest, although a N62 would be more of a known quantity...

What's so crummy about romtunes and/or emulators (Nistune, Moates Ostrich, etc...)? I'd like to install a small auxiliary mechanical water pump, shared between the W/A IC and the water injection system, in place of the fan clutch. This way pump output is proportional to rpm and not fixed like with an electrical pump. This is much better and should make tuning a lot better without the use of funky controllers and such... I should add that I'm a Mechanical Engineer by training so the design/specification of such a system wouldn't be all that difficult

PS CA_Silvia, I'm interested in hearing what makes you think the short-runner intake manifold is such a bad idea...

[ca18detgabby]

higher effectiveness........ this is assuming you can keep the water source cool enough. at best the water is no cooler than that of the air passing by the sealed tank(which I would assume to be placed in the front air duct). to run w/o utilizing ice seems to be a total waste.... IMO.

Most, road race cars also run an air to air(some with a sprayer bar for N20 or C02). wouldnt the excess weight of the pump, a radiator, and fluid also hinder the whole advantage of the setup?

I suppose you can do as you wish.

this was a good reference I read up on when we were debating using it on the MS6.http://www.key-ideas.com/AirWaterIC.htm

[turbo-sil40]

For instance the very largest intercooler cores you can buy on ebay have Effectiveness values on the order of 70-75% with an internal volume of over 15L for the IC alone, whereas a water/air heat exchanger would have an effectiveness on the order of 80% (this depends on the pump used)

It seems to me to be a huge waste of time to do all of that for 5% better efficiency, why dont you do it the old fashioned way big turbo, big intercooler and forge the bottom end and call it a day, im with ca18detgabby it seems like you are going to go so far out of the way for nothing, but what do I know, you will just tell me i dont know what im talking about, but to me life is to short to waste that much time. I would stick to what works and is the easiest.

[hydra]

Its not about that added 5% efficiency at all, but more about the improvement in response for a given turbo size. A lot of users on here have commented about how turbo lag goes through the roof when a monster FMIC is installed and I wish to avoid that. But enough about intercoolers, I'm also interested in hearing what you guys think about my manifold, cam, etc.. choices. Also if the stock CA18DET internals should have any problem with this setup...

[boost_boy]

Sorry but you're wrong about a few things. Water to air intercoolers (with their own dedicated water supply and circulation pump) have HIGHER effectiveness in addition to lower pressure drops than even the most beastly of air/air setups. For instance the very largest intercooler cores you can buy on ebay have Effectiveness values on the order of 70-75% with an internal volume of over 15L for the IC alone, whereas a water/air heat exchanger would have an effectiveness on the order of 80% (this depends on the pump used) with internal volumes a third of the air/air unit. I should have mentioned that I'm building my car for hillclimbs/road racing so the usual drag racing tricks (e.g. NAWSS) aren't on the cards.

N60 MAFs are supposedly good for anywhere between 310-350bhp, and they're readily available where I live hence my interest, although a N62 would be more of a known quantity...

What's so crummy about romtunes and/or emulators (Nistune, Moates Ostrich, etc...)? I'd like to install a small auxiliary mechanical water pump, shared between the W/A IC and the water injection system, in place of the fan clutch. This way pump output is proportional to rpm and not fixed like with an electrical pump. This is much better and should make tuning a lot better without the use of funky controllers and such... I should add that I'm a Mechanical Engineer by training so the design/specification of such a system wouldn't be all that difficult

PS CA_Silvia, I'm interested in hearing what makes you think the short-runner intake manifold is such a bad idea...

Some of you guys kill me with your fancy engineering talk, but allow me to interject. Have you ever owned a CA18DET engine before? If not, I suggest you put it in your car and shove some air and fuel down the throat of one and determine which way you want to go afterwards. There's nothing anyone can add at this time that can equate to your own experience with the CA18DET engine. I agree that the use of the kind of intercooler system you're talking about is bunch of leg-work, but do whatever you want to because it's your engine and will be your experience. There's enough info on this forum that will surely make you not want to create such a thread because most of what you need to know has been discussed a bunch of times over. Again, don't worry about what other people think because half the folks' cars around here doesn't appear to run all that hot, so go through your own experience and we can help you from there. Good luck my engineering friend .

Dee

[turbo-sil40]

I agree turn the boost up and have some fun, and believe me you will definitely love it, your not having fun unless your messing something up. good luck.

[float_6969]

For a daily driven car a water/air is actually a better setup. If you watch the intake temps you'll actually see LESS of a climb in intake temps when passing/climbing hills/etc. The reason being that you dump that heat into the water, it then slowly dumped back into the air going past the cooler AND back into the intake air when you're off boost.

The reason they're not used in racing environments is that you're in boost so much that you'll actually start to increase the temp of the water, and once that starts to happen, then the advantages of the air/air take over.

Think of the water like a surge tank for soaking up the heat of the air when you're in boost, and then when you're back off boost, the heat goes out to the cooler for the water and into the intake when you're off boost.

[meminto]

Too me I see at as a one more point of failure risk in comparison to the air to air style...

I understand the throttle response reason, but I am unsure how tangible the effect would be...

Wouldn't moving the afm to the cold side of the intercooler be a more effective modification for what you want to achieve?