KA24DER Intercooler Questions

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KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Sun May 01, 2011 3:01 pm

I plan on supercharging my kade with a knight supercharger kit and an eaton m62. I have heard of sandwiching intercoolers between the sc and the intake manifold on v8s. I would like to run a water to air intercooler core welded into the intake runners just after the sc flange, the core would be 4x4x11, can i get enough cooling out of this setup to lower the air charge temps?


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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Sun May 01, 2011 6:09 pm

You'd probably be getting into uncharted waters there... but you might be better off with a water or alcohol injection at that point.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Sun May 01, 2011 7:24 pm

Your plan is exactly what is done on LSX blowers...most of the good kits use a separate coolant loop to keep the intercooler fed.

Before I sold my GTO I was looking into a Magnuson Supercharger Kit... basically has two small water to air heat exchangers sandwiched between the blower and the left and right intake ports. The kit mounts a separate coolant resivoir /bottle with a small electric pump in the passenger side wheel well similar to the wiper fluid bottle.

There is def more than enough room in the KA intake tract to make something similar work.

I am posting this response because I also might be purchasing a TK kit, and thought of the exact same thing...If I actually get the parts, I might throw it in my build thread.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Sun May 01, 2011 8:50 pm

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:You'd probably be getting into uncharted waters there... but you might be better off with a water or alcohol injection at that point.
I love uncharted waters, and there are a few reasons that i dont want to go water injection. like the idea of running out of water, or the constant filling of the system. this will be a daily driver so the system must be self sustaining, as little maintenance as possible.

superDorifto wrote:Your plan is exactly what is done on LSX blowers...

....... I also might be purchasing a TK kit, and thought of the exact same thing...If I actually get the parts, I might throw it in my build thread.
yea that is definitely the idea I am trying to replicate on the 240, the question was more about the cooling ability of that size intercooler and its location being so close to the sc. I would also like to point out that if your in the market for a sc kit the kae24der kit is nicer than the tk kit.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Sun May 01, 2011 8:58 pm

Granted the KA24DER kit is better, but I might be able to get the TK kit for ~500 bucks with a rebuilt M62.

Back on topic tho...

Check out the HEX (Heat Exchangers) on the edlebrock E Force kit for an LSX

Image

Look at the cross sectional area of the core to the blower...granted no one has done the heat transfer calc to size the thing properly, but a creative fabricator could cut a bit more out of the KA intake runner and squeeze a HEX of this size inline with the charge flow.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Sun May 01, 2011 9:35 pm

that picture pretty much sews this one closed. I was worried about the intercooler becoming a heat sink being mounted so close to the sc. that is obviously not the case as this picture shows nearly no space between the two. the only other question I can think of is do you know if they are using glycol in that setup?

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Sun May 01, 2011 10:04 pm

Yes, they specify norrmal GM antifreeze in the set up...granted they are not pushing greater than 10 psi, but a simple set of heat transfer calcs could solve this problem...I'm not going to do them, but someone should.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby ss82480 » Sun May 15, 2011 3:26 pm

Fyi if you are planning on using the Thomas Knight kit you would quickly find out there is less than an inch of clearance between the supercharger and the oil filter already. No go.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby Razi » Sun May 15, 2011 5:14 pm

An oil filter relocation kit could help create clearance, but I don't know by how much.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Sun May 15, 2011 5:37 pm

the idea was to shorten the intake more and place the intercooler where the runners were. reality is that the runners are already being shortened about 4 inches and shortening them any more couldent be good for the motor. now i have moved on to running the supercharger remotely and using an inline water to air intercooler with the shortest intake piping possible. the problems i am running into with this design are intake length and how to keep the intercooler from heat soaking being located between the radiator and the motor. i think the answer is in heat shielding, i want to use fiberglass blanket wrapped with aluminum. with this i believe i can get low intake temps with very low boost loss and very little lag.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby ss82480 » Thu May 19, 2011 12:24 am

Well if you are planning on chopping the intake manifold the thomas knight kit will not work.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby WDRacing » Thu May 19, 2011 12:17 pm

Yup, sounds like a custom job all the way. Which imho is a waste of time and money unless you use a m90 or bigger. I was going to remote mount a M62, the damn thing is just to small to invest that much time and effort. Now the M90 or M112 on the other hand. They will flow plenty of air for the KA and can handle more boost without becoming a heat pump.

WD

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Mon May 23, 2011 6:30 pm

You would need to hack a good 2-3 inches extra out of the upper intake runners, and seal the entire area off. I priced out a cooler that size, and it would be in the 50-150 range depending on brand. You would need two block off plates to seal against, similar to the sc to manifold adaptor plate.

all told with a pump and hoses/couplings/machine work/misc hardware I figure it will cost somewhere around $6-700 bucks...

A good meth kit like the sno-performance one will run much less. I might still try to take a swag at the plates, I have like 2 extra manifolds lying around, but my focus for the rest of the summer is getting my own kit up and running.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Mon May 23, 2011 7:45 pm

again i have abandoned the intercooler in the intake for a remote mount sc. however i still believe this is a good way to intercool the tk/kader kit although i wouldn't be worried about making plates, i would probably just weld mine in place. personally i was trying to stay away from the meth just to keep it daily but if you dont mind refilling the water/meth then its a good route to go.

oh and WD i have been looking at an m90 which is another reason i will be going remote.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby ss82480 » Wed May 25, 2011 12:28 am

If you are going to remote mount + add intercooler you are better off just going turbo IMO. A t-25 setup will make just as much power down low.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Wed May 25, 2011 6:09 am

that may be true if your running an m62 but for the m90 you would need a gt2871r just to keep up and its gonna need to spool before you make power, the m90 wont need to spool.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby ss82480 » Wed May 25, 2011 11:57 pm

I understand the whole wanting to try something different route because I went there. I was a little underwhelmed with a supercharger setup, given it was only an m62. I now have a big turbo and would never go back. Besides N/A, or supercharged KA's for that matter sound like poo.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Thu May 26, 2011 6:35 am

sorry your m62 didnt work out, maybe you should have gone for a m90 or m112. FYI I will not be turboing this motor.....EVER, so drop it.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby WDRacing » Thu May 26, 2011 6:52 am

TURBO!!!! :poke:

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Thu May 26, 2011 7:14 am

Grrrr lol

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Tue May 31, 2011 4:42 pm

superDorifto wrote:You would need to hack a good 2-3 inches extra out of the upper intake runners, and seal the entire area off. I priced out a cooler that size, and it would be in the 50-150 range depending on brand. You would need two block off plates to seal against, similar to the sc to manifold adaptor plate.

all told with a pump and hoses/couplings/machine work/misc hardware I figure it will cost somewhere around $6-700 bucks...

A good meth kit like the sno-performance one will run much less. I might still try to take a swag at the plates, I have like 2 extra manifolds lying around, but my focus for the rest of the summer is getting my own kit up and running.
I stand corrected by myself. With a little bit of searching...literally putting "water to air intercooler," into google I found the frozenboostDOTcom.

Pretty reasonable priced, and their $275 kit is the perfect size. You would still need to do some fab to mate it to the intake, but for the same price as a meth injection kit you can have a custom set up that will not need to be refilled/run dry and wreck your motor.

I just picked up an EMS for my build, and I am seriously considering trying to fab this thing up...I've never welded aluminum before, but I have friends that have. Any thoughts?

I think with this mod pushing past 300whp with a supercharger is a reliable daily option...assuming the tune is dead nuts on. :bigthumb:

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:38 am

now your pickin up what im putting down, with an intercooler it shouldent be any more risky than running a turbo.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:52 pm

I talked to one of my friends with a decent welder, and hes down to try and fab the 3.5" x 3.5" x 9". This is gonna be my first time actually welding aluminum, so I'm really just gonna concentrate on the alignment of the runners.

This is the only example that I've been able to find so far, I'm not going to go as far as creating a cast section with a removable core, but the concept is exactly the same:

VF M5 supercharger manifold
Image
Image
Image

A version that would work with the KA, and both the TK and KA24DER kits would just need someone to sandwich the heat exchanger between the four runners. Water to airs are damn efficient too, the kit I was looking at claims only a .1psi drop across the core. If I do get this project moving I am going to add 2 temp sensors to monitor the effective temperature drop across the core.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:46 pm

they aren't lying about the pressure drop and its no typo those things just don't flex and are quite small therefore will show no pressure drop. personally i was going for the 12.25x4x4.5 as its rated to 700cfm (the smaller is rated to 450cfm) and the s/c maxes out at 450cfm so if you plan to overdrive the s/c in the future you will need the larger intercooler. I think now would probably be as good a time as any to tell you that i also intended on mounting the radiator for this setup in the stock smic location just to make it super stealthy. I also intended to rebuild the snout of my s/c with ceramic bearings and new seals just to ensure that overdriving it wouldn't kill it. It was only after all this planning that i finally decided that the m62 just wasnt big enuff for all this fab work, but if you already have the kit then i say go for it.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:40 pm

The M62 will work, but I've been thinking about an M90. People say that it wont fit in the stock lower manifold's location, but if I am fabing a manifold/intercooler it might be possible. even if the snout is not in line with the accessory axis whats 1 more custom pulley?

When you say overdrive, how far are you planning to go? anything past 14 psi and any roots blower is pretty much useless.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:03 pm

FYI guys, Sean (Username MagikDragon here on NICO) is also in CT, is a great TIG welder, and is offering his services. Tell 'em Large Marge sent you.


...then when he looks at you all confused, tell him I sent you. :couch

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:18 am

I've met Sean before, sold him a nearly complete rebuilt SR for his time attack car. I spray painted the valve cover gold because it was pealing anyway. I was to the point of sizing bearings after completely rebuilding the SR, unfortunately my old s14 got totaled by someone running a stop sign...I sold him the complete set up minus a turbo/manifold and bought a bike instead.

Anyway, I just sent him a PM, hopefully he'll pop his head in and comment. Even if he doesn't want to help with the Fab, I plan on buying the cooler core later this month.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby PapaSmurf2k3 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:48 am

I THINK something ended up happening with the SR (bad valve, piston, rod perhaps?) and they ended up rebuilding it. I know lately "life" has hit him, and he's been traveling a lot for his job (as well as just bought a house), so I'm not sure as to the progress on the time attack car.

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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby superDorifto » Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:23 am

Off topic, but just saw his 190 Merc in the 2011 Carlise thread. Looked pretty good. I just watched the topgear where they comment on that car. I didn't realize those were available in the US.
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Re: KA24DER Intercooler Questions

Postby moso » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:09 pm

I would say you could overdrive the m62 a few thousand rpms so long as its not sustained and the snout has been rebuilt with upgraded bearings and seals however if you plan on doing that you should look into a larger intercooler as that one is only rated to 450cfm. if you decide to go with the m90 then your tk kit is pretty much a waste and you should start from scratch and sell the kit. that being said the m90 is larger all arround, tip to tail, side to side, and top to bottom. the m90 also has a rear inlet unlike the nissan m62 with its unusual side inlet. I plan on remote mounting my m90 over the exhaust manifold, if i were to put it on the intake side you can expect to completely redo the intake, i would cut the runners just after the injectors and reroute the entire thing. you will need to put in additional support for the m90 as well. the plus side to all this is that the supercharger can be mounted in any orientation as long as you can supply drive to it.


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