Infiniti M reliability -- let's get better stats

[mkaresh]

I wanted more up-to-date car reliability information that included actual repair rates. So in late 2005 I started getting people together to make this possible. TrueDelta now updates actual repair frequencies, not just dots, four times a year, to report on new models sooner and then track cars closely as they age.

We've had excellent participation by Nissan and Infiniti owners, thanks to the very generous support of AZHitman and NICOClub. I'd like to cover every year of the M--just a matter of getting enough owners involved.

I'd especially like to provide quick results for the 2011.

Participants simply report repairs the month after they occur on a one-page survey. When there are no repairs, they simply report an approximate odometer reading four times a year, at the end of each quarter.

To encourage participation, participants receive full access to all results, not just those for the M, for free.

For the details, and to sign up to help out:

Car reliability research

Update: four 2011s now signed up... it's a start. We'll probably need about 40 for a full result--how soon can we get there

[scjconsulting]

You might want to check Consumers Reports. They do a pretty good job and the most recent report was very good for the M.

[AZhitman]

Actually, CR is a joke.

Guys, take a minute and drop some info on Mike's site... He's got a good thing going, and our participation is important.

[mkaresh]

Thanks, AZhitman.

CR has been doing what they've been doing for so long that it's easy to think they must know how to do it. But they've never had any serious competition, and organizations that don't have to compete generally don't innovate. They just keep doing things the same way they've always done them, right or wrong.

If CR was doing a good job with their reliability research, I wouldn't be doing this. But they aren't, so I am. You can read two of my critiques of how they collect data and report results here:

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/cr_survey.php

I'm a member of CR. The second editorial is based on my personal experience filling out their survey.

Now their reliability research and the road tests that have praised the M are two different things. I think they do a much better job with the road tests.
Modified by mkaresh at 9:16 PM 12/1/2006

[scjconsulting]

I have also been a CR member for many years. I have always been more interested in their car reliability ratings than their road tests. I read Automobile or Car and Driver magazines when I want to first find a car I would be interested in driving and then CR for their reliability ratings. CRs road tests spend more time talking about car features and features missing than they do about what I am most interested in.

CR did have high praise for the Ms road test and gave the M35X their highest rating ever for a luxury car. This rating also includes reliability. It was also nice that they rated the M35X and not the M45 Sport like everyone else does.

[mkaresh]

Actually, the rating your refer to, where the M scored highest, does not include reliability. That's only the road test score. The reliability score is separate.

The formula for deriving the road test score has never been published. Someone I know once asked them about it, and they responded that it was "proprietary information." Every other car magazine tells you how they calculate overall scores. But not CR.
Modified by mkaresh at 10:10 AM 12/2/2006

[scjconsulting]

CR does not recommend a car without a reliability score. The M was a recommended car.

The full reliability score is done once a year from information received from CR members. I think their numbers are done with more input than your reliability research will get.

All magazine car test scores are a mystery. None of the numbers add up.

I did join your Truedelta.

[mkaresh]

Thanks for joining.

Your are right that they won't recommend a car without a reliability score (though for many Hondas and Toyotas they'll provide a top score without data). But the reliability score and road test score are two different scores. To be recommended, a car must be above average on both and do reasonably well in safety tests.

Their major advantage is the one thing I have no direct control over, sample size. I don't know if I'll ever have a sample as large as theirs, but I think you'll see some pretty strong growth over the next couple of years. If every person who has thought "Your sample is too small" was participating in the research, my sample wouldn't be too small. Thanks for not being one of them.

But it doesn't matter how large your sample is if your methods have major flaws, which theirs do. The famous case was a poll back in the 1930s that incorrectly predicted Roosevelt would lose the presidential election based on a sample in the millions.

In CR's case, look at the article I have here:

http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/anomalies.php

With the large Chryslers, their ratings suggest you should get the V8 in the Dodge Magnum but avoid it in the Chrysler 300C. Similarly, this year they recommend getting the 2.0T in the Jetta, but avoiding it in the Passat. Same engines, different models.

Their sample is so large that with proper methods these anomalies should not occur. But they happen about as often as they don't happen.
Modified by mkaresh at 5:56 PM 12/2/2006

[Q45tech]

What one wants to know is the reliability from 100K-200k and how many thousand [$2,000 or $3,000] per year is necessary every year to maintain functionality and near new operation, when the USED purchase price has declined to [100k- 7 years and 20% of new MSRP].

Also the average amount [$2,000-$4,000] necessary immediately to fix a used car being sold back to near new performance...........before the $2,000-$4,000 per year starts.

Tires, tire maintenance, Brakes/rotors, rubber component replacement, when the AC fails, etc.

After all one can purchase an inexpensive Nissan Warranty until 100k.

The recent advent of $250 tires that only last 12-18 months, ultra performance fast wearing brakes, almost race car outputs from engines, stress on transmissions..................all change the expectation of reliability.

[mkaresh]

I will be tracking older cars. I'm already collecting data on a number of cars with over 100,000 miles. The survey asks about repair costs. I haven't decided how old I'll go yet, probably ten years like Consumer Reports. I require 25 cars to start with a model/model year.

However, I exclude wear items like tires and brakes, because of the number of variables involved, many of them related to how and where the car is driven. I might later ask about these, but in a separate survey.

[scjconsulting]

I think you will agree that CRs reliability or even Truedata is based on people's preception of what is good or bad reliability. Some people think that any problem is bad, but other people require a lot of problems before they report having any. Some owners don't want to think they ever have problems and don't want to admit they made a mistake when they selected a car. That can explain some anomalies.

[mkaresh]

As discussed in the editorial I linked earlier, the way CR's survey is worded leaves it up to respondents to determine whether a problem they experienced is serious enough to report. This amplifies the issue you raise.

My survey, in contrast, strictly defines what counts as a problem. While there will be some variation, as some people are more likely than others to get minor problems fixed, the raw data I'm seeing suggests this isn't much of an issue. The great majority of problems reported are severe enough that nearly any driver would have them fixed.

[mkaresh]

As discussed in the editorial I linked earlier, the way CR's survey is worded leaves it up to respondents to determine whether a problem they experienced is serious enough to report. This amplifies the issue you raise.

My survey, in contrast, strictly defines what counts as a problem. While there will be some variation, as some people are more likely than others to get minor problems fixed, the raw data I'm seeing suggests this isn't much of an issue. The great majority of problems reported are severe enough that nearly any driver would have them fixed.

[AZhitman]

Bump - We need more M owners to chime in, this is important research that will benefit folks like us in the future, let's help out!

[szh]

I added mine, but it looks like there are not enough 2003 /2004 M45's in there yet ... so no info yet!

Z

[mkaresh]

The older Ms are pretty rare, so it may be a while before I have enough.

Have been collecting data on the 2006 for some time, but still need more responses to post results. 25 currently signed up.

[mkaresh]

Have some preliminary results for the 2006 M: 0.8 trips per year. This is about twice what I usually see for a Japanese model, but still a bit below the 1.0 I see for many domestics.

I'll be checking the issue descriptions to see what's going on.

A few more have signed up recently, for a total of 31. Results are based on responses from 17 cars.

If you're one of the 2006 owners who has signed up but has not responded, I need that response. I only publicly display results when at least 18 cars have responded--so currently one short.

[sr79labrat]

I signed up as well...moments ago!

How many 03-04 M45 guys do you have? Enough to do info search on?

Something cool would be a list of side notes ect for cross comparing features/ pic/ performance/ price....things that an car guy would love!

You might be doing that already, but I thought this would be helpful when compiling data to pick a new-used car.Thanks for your help!Kyle

[spisam]

I was reading another Infiniti Forum and the issues with the M45. The M45 Sport, I ordered should be arriving next week but after reading the problems I'm now concerned about buying the car. Some problems discussed were the aiming of the headlights, bluetooth not working, the nav not working, the M45 not holding the line when highway driving, severe pull right when stopping, driver seats that are loose in the tracks, a rattling under the car, etc. These issues were not isolated as five or six people wrote in with the same problems of reliability. This is totally different than the auto magazines and Edmond portray. Have any of you out there had any problems severe enough that would have had you not buy the car in hindsight.

[mkaresh]

Note that even though I say the repair rate appears to be about double what I see for most Hondas and Toyotas, it's still under one trip per year. So many people have no problems with the car, and few people have multiple problems. The Internet will make problems seem more common than they are, just like watching the nightly news might lead you to think bad stuff is happening to people all the time.

[szh]

Note that even though I say the repair rate appears to be about double what I see for most Hondas and Toyotas, it's still under one trip per year. So many people have no problems with the car, and few people have multiple problems. The Internet will make problems seem more common than they are, just like watching the nightly news might lead you to think bad stuff is happening to people all the time.

Exactly right! One of the reasons many people seek us out and ask questions - on any forum, not just on NICO - is when they have a problem. So, there is a tendency for the number of "problem" posts to outweigh the others!

Of course, one of the things we try to do here at NICO is provide information on problems as well as other topics - modifications, fun times driving the car, speeding stories (I have to admit to that ), etc.

For many people, NICO has become a place to hang out on the Internet too. It is the only forum I visit regularly - mostly because I enjoy talking to people about the cars we drive. And, yes, even though I also own an Acura, my post count on that forum is tiny fractions of what it is here.

Because of the people!

So, anyway, to make a long story even longer, I would still recommend the M in a heartbeat. Yes, there have been some problems, but, all in all, the good more than outweighs the bad! What you get in the M (either the M45 or the M35) is a lot of performance and luxury ... for quite a bit less than comparable cars from other manufacturers.

There is a reason it is Consumer Reports highest ranked car! Replacing other, more "reliable", cars.

And, yes, there have been some teething problems with the model, but nothing that I would consider being something that would make me not get it again in a heartbeat. Sure, this is not true for everyone who has purchased an M35 or M45, but the same could be said for any other car and mftr in the market!

Z

[mkaresh]

Thanks for the confirmation.

Currently have 31 2006 Ms in the panel. More is always better. And where are the 2007s?

[ProvidenceLeaf]

Are you on acurazine.com?

[szh]

Mod: can we change the title to "Infiniti M35/M45 reliability - how does it compare?"

Done!

Z

[GJEMD]

100,000 miles. Seems unlikely for a Japanese GTO. Be clear High performance carsshould not be expected to be reliable after being thrown around for 100,000 miles.Thats why there are not any matching numbers 'muscle cars" with over 60,000 miles.Check barrett/Jackson next time. Also most any High Performance cars that are driven hard or raced use oil.

[mkaresh]

Are you on acurazine.com?

Not much these days. They're one of the few forums that have not been supportive of my research. One of the mods even deleted my sig (which the other mods had been okay with). So I rarely go there any more.

I've been active in an Acura RL thread recently, but only because someone started a thread about one of the posts in my site's blog.

[vzuptnguyen]

how bout reports for the 03-04 m45

btw, im on acurazine as well. i also think the mods are dictators with biased views. hope its not the same here. you cant blame them though. they are just normal people as well.

[mkaresh]

Not nearly enough 2003 and 2004s signed up yet.

[szh]

how bout reports for the 03-04 m45

btw, im on acurazine as well. i also think the mods are dictators with biased views. hope its not the same here. you cant blame them though. they are just normal people as well.

There is always a fine line between too little and too much moderating.

I try to err on the lenient side, but will enforce what is in the FAQ (see button above) when it becomes necessary. Our "General Chat" forum is a bit more on the wild and woolly side ...

Z

[mkaresh]

Great to see traffic in this forum picking up.

On the M, the most recent results were recently posted and detailed here in a separate thread. Still short of the minimum needed for an official result, so there was again an asterisk. With more participants, there won't be one next time, in November.

For the details, and to sign up:

Vehicle reliability research