how to supercharge a ca18det?

Discuss topics related to the CA18DE and CA18DET series engines.
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ska69
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I've been looking around and found that Chevy Cobalt M62 SC has its map sensor placed on top of the unit. Idk if they suffer any turbulance issues but I'll just consider your info and place the MAP sensor as far away from the SC outlet as possible. Any idea if turbulance issue same for air temp sensor?

lol, gotcha. so TB will be as close as possible to the inlet.


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ska69
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So I might be able to get a Ford TB 3.8 Eaton M90 SC...from what I've found googling, spinning such big SC at lower speeds causes more parasitic (?) heat, rather than spinning at 14k rpm...is that correct?

I'd really like to try it out, hence M90 displacement is only 1.5 lt/rev compared to 1.0 lt/rev of M62.

btw, it's a pretty compact SC too... so is there any way to set it up correctly on a 1.8 engine?

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The bigger charger wont make more heat, it'l take more power to drive.

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ska69
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even with custom sized pulleys?

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ska69
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no one want to sell me a nissan m62 s/c other seem to require lots of fabricating. decided to postpone this idea.

dash
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don't see much point in bangin ya head against the wall, reinventing the wheel.... when miata gang figured it all out for ya long ago

u can find a few fine examples detailed on their forums... like this?
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=395416

basicly stock 1.8, SC m90 . 12.75s et on street tires seem pretty strong to me
says 3" exhaust thru suv junkyard muffler too quiet tho - lol

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themadscientist
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Braket, belt, done.

Image

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ska69
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and such procharger cost more than my whole car + extra parts + spare engine lol

also it would perform in a manner similar to turbo opposed to standard roots type s/c

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themadscientist
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More linear I would expect than a turbo being mechanically driven.

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ska69
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yeat not as linear as a roots style and it can't beat the price of a root style :)

Vetal
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Guys what do you think I could ON A BUDGET together with my turbo to give me decent torque from 1500 and before 3500 when turbo starts to blow? Is there any small/cheap OEM charger that I could use for low-down torque?

1200ute
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Vetal wrote:Guys what do you think I could ON A BUDGET together with my turbo to give me decent torque from 1500 and before 3500 when turbo starts to blow? Is there any small/cheap OEM charger that I could use for low-down torque?
I would suggest using a lower gear....

jcd06
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The Eaton M45 like one can find on the smaller Mercedes Kompressor models (1800cc M271 engine) is well suited for our beloved CA.

It gave me about 180Nm at 2000rpm and a max of 206hp at 6800rpm.

It simply can't give more air than for producing a solid 200hp but that is not the issue if your turbo takes over at 3500rpm.

There have been models with and models without integrated bypassvalve.
That valve is there to bypass the charger at idle and cruising.
If you use it for bypassing the charger while feeding a big turbo, you will inevitably create a restriction in front of the turbo.

Have you thought about how you want to realise the switch-over between charger and turbo?

A supercharger is not less a compromise than a turbo :)

dash
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Vetal wrote:Guys what do you think I could ON A BUDGET together with my turbo to give me decent torque from 1500 and before 3500 when turbo starts to blow? Is there any small/cheap OEM charger that I could use for low-down torque?
or better yet, the m62 like from the earlier buick 3800 v6. Same displacement as the sc12 on the toyota 1.6L 4agze
Some have had very good results twincharging, achieving your goal precisely. Google "twincharge"
Gives an added dimension of torque and response that u just wont see otherwise,
Definitely worth the 'headache' if you're up to it
Pretty clever how this dude sorted his: http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/67 ... e-in-ae82/
I'd go with a bigger turbo than an evoIII 16g tho

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Izento
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Honestly, on a budget I don't think a supercharged turbocharged CA18 can be done unless you can fab up your own piping and miscellaneous stuff.

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float_6969
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Budget and twin-charge never go in the same sentence together. Also, if you're going to do it, the sensible way is to use a larger, laggier turbo, and use the Supercharge down low where it's at its best. But this is going to require A LOT of fabrication from scratch.

dash
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it can and has been done "on a budget".... the key ?
unless you can fab up your own piping and miscellaneous stuff
sc12, mp62, holset, etc.. can all b found for very reasonable money, and fit the bill perfectly

I like how that link he used a junkyard drive-by-wire throttle body @ x-over. Very cool

Vetal
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Why would built-in bypass cause restriction to the turbo? too small?

Among Mercedes M45 and M62, Toyotas SC12 / SC14, Mini SC (Eaton M45 too?) and Aisin AMR500, which is more desirable? I guess the efficiency is comparable among them? For low-end (1500-3000rpm) should I try to go smaller size like AMR500, or is M45/M62 equally suitable?

P.S. This is going to complement my turbo and IS supposed to be a budget add-on, but I don't think making some charge pipes and SC bracket will be expensive. Other that that 2 problems are - some bypass valve, and how to control the SC, right?

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M45 sized out pretty well the last time I looked into twin charging. I actually purchased a clutched M45 at one point, but once I actually had it setting in the engine bay and saw how large even a small M45 was, I realized there was no way to keep A/C and have the supercharger (and I didn't want to run them in series), so I gave up on it.

Vetal
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float_6969 wrote:M45 sized out pretty well the last time I looked into twin charging. I actually purchased a clutched M45 at one point, but once I actually had it setting in the engine bay and saw how large even a small M45 was, I realized there was no way to keep A/C and have the supercharger (and I didn't want to run them in series), so I gave up on it.
So, maybe Aisin AMR500? It's tiny.
My 16G is low-mounted so I might have enough space on top (above P/S pump), not sure.
Is there any rule of thumb for what should see fresh air first - turbo or SC? I haven't read much on this yet. On 1 hand, for turbo it would be easier to blow through bypass than to suck through. On the other, I will not put second IC, so supercharger will not like hot air from the turbo...

jcd06
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The stock bypass valve on the M45 that I used is a Bosch electronic throttle valve.
It is already pretty large compared to these on the Gen V Eaton chargers with built-in vacuum-actuated bypass valve.
But, the cast aluminium inlet and outlet manifolds which also hold the bypass valve are designed in order to optimise the airflow through the charger, not through the bypass valve.

Be aware that any pressure drop upstream of your turbo (and the charger too) will show up at the turbo outlet, amplified by the factor of the turbo pressure ratio.
Your waste gate and boost controller will compensate for this but this will not be for free. The air leaving the turbo compressor will be hotter and the turbine the pressure ratio will increase, decreasing overall efficiency.

If building pipes and flanges doesn't scare you, then this is the way to go.
Actually you will rather start from scratch which is a different approach.
You're not going to build a budget add-on but you're going to make it right, using cheap components.

This looks like a good idea for a bypass valve
http://youtu.be/-bS3SgjB-eg

I replaced my PS pump by an electric one from a Toyota MR2 and I used that space to put the alternator.
It's more complicated but it leaves some space for a turbo :)
You can see the built on the British board
http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/showthread.php?389879

Vetal
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Looked at M45 charger from Merc C200. While it's not very large, I still can't fit it length-wise. It would need to be moved forward some 4", and I'm trying to figure out some intermideate pulley to do that... Any ideas?

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All this work, time and expense to try to do the same thing as a properly sized turbo? Why?

Back when aftermarket turbos were hard to get and expensive, the redtop SR20 turbo was a great upgrade for the OE CA18 one, it had a better compressor and the AR .63 hot size was a great balance for low down response without choking up top. Hell, the S14 turbo was more drivable than the stock CA18 turbo and it was huge by comparison, but it was ball bearing.

Another angle is, if low RPM torque is what you crave, crank up the compression. Put some CA18DE pistons in it and make sure your boost, timing and intercooling are up to snuff.

Vetal
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themadscientist wrote:All this work, time and expense to try to do the same thing as a properly sized turbo? Why?

Back when aftermarket turbos were hard to get and expensive, the redtop SR20 turbo was a great upgrade for the OE CA18 one, it had a better compressor and the AR .63 hot size was a great balance for low down response without choking up top. Hell, the S14 turbo was more drivable than the stock CA18 turbo and it was huge by comparison, but it was ball bearing.

Another angle is, if low RPM torque is what you crave, crank up the compression. Put some CA18DE pistons in it and make sure your boost, timing and intercooling are up to snuff.
Are you saying it is possible to have 200Nm from 1000rpm and 400HP up top on single-turbo CA18, pump gas?

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Now you are doubling down and pushing it down 500rpm? You want 150 ftlbs at 250rpm above idle? How much crack do you smoke in a day? A brand new GTR with an entire SR20 of displacement extra and a second turbo doesn't make that much torque at that RPM. You could overdrive the hell out of a supercharger as high as you want shooting for that arbitrary number only to discover for every two steps forward you ar being pushed back a step as the drag created to build that air flow fights against your teeny, tiny little four shooter.

Assuming for a second that you could reshape physics and get the first number, you cannot then, also, get the second number. Add that to you deciding to build torque in one of Nissan's smaller engines and being on a tight budget and the whole thing is deliciously ludicrous so I don't want you to stop. I love a slow moving train wreck. Even if there was a way to get those two numbers in the same engine, and i am saying there's no way in hell, it would not be done cheaply. 400hp, pfft, trying doing just THAT on a budget. Forget all this twin charge voodoo BS. Just try to build a 4 large 18 on a shoe string that doesn't have the fuse time of this before it does what these do.

Image

I am saying that you are creating a "problem" that doesn't exist so you can then try to fix it. If I can street a CA18DE and harass RB20DETs all night, you can drive a CA18DET without whining about torque. :facepalm:

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If you want to twin-charge because you think it's cool and you have the means, then I say go for it. If you really think you could hit 200Nm @ 1000 rpm with ANY supercharger, you're on the wrong path. That kind of low end torque requires leverage that you're only going to get from a long stroke or lots of cylinders. You can't throw boost at something turning that slowly and compensate. Have you ever tried to run in 5th gear at a really low rpm, like 1500? Do you remember what the engine sounded like? If you then threw 7psi of boost on top of that situation, the engine would grenade itself, VERY quickly. We're not being contrary or negative here. The issue is physics. Torque comes from leverage. Leverage come from the length of the lever, and some force acting upon it. The easiest way to make lots of torque is to have a really long lever. The lever in the case of a piston engine is HALF the stroke. Let me repeat that, HALF OF THE STROKE. If you have a really short lever, and you're trying to make a lot of torque, then the only option you have is to use A LOT of force. When you use that much force, you can start to have issues with the materials you're using for the lever. Steel and aluminum and only handle so much bending action before they start to fatigue. To help you get a feel for what we're dealing with here, lets do some math.

200Nm~145 ft/lbs of torque
The stroke of the CA is 83.6 mm, which is equal to 0.2742782 feet.
The leverage used to create torque is only half this distance, so 0.2742782/2=0.1371391 feet.
To create just 1 ft/lb with a lever that long, you would have to place a 7.291866433424166 lb weight on the end of that lever.
So to re-iterate, a lever of 0.1371391 ft with 7.291866433424166 lbs placed at the end of it and the other end of the lever attached to a rotating shaft will create 1 ft/lb of torque. The length of the lever is fixed (0.1371391 ft), so the only thing we can do to change torque is to increase weight. So create 145ft/lbs, we simply multiply our weight by 145.
7.291866433424166 lbs * 145 = 1057.320632846504 lbs.

You would have to place a weight of approximately 1057 lbs on a lever 0.1371391 ft long to create 145 ft/lbs of torque. That's a MASSIVE amount of weight. Honestly, the idea that it's possible at any RPM is amazing. Now to be completely fair here, I'm assuming that we have 0 (zero) RPMs and only one cylinder. In reality, we have multiple cylinders and RPMs, which changes things a bit because once you start spinning something, it has energy in it from the combustion cycle before, so we don't have to make the full power every time, and the faster you spin it, the more energy you have from before you pass on to the next cycle. That's the important part. Making 145 ft/lbs on a CA given any RPM isn't hard to do. Making 145 ft/lbs given any number of cylinders, or stroke on the crankshaft isn't hard to do. But if all you have to work with is an engine with a short stroke and not very many cylinders and lower RPMs, that number becomes VERY hard to achieve. And the more you lower the RPM, or raise the torque, the worse the problem gets. Eventually you hit a limit where the properties of the materials that you're using are not capable of supporting the force that's applied to them, and they fail.

Honestly, if you're REALLY set on lots of low end torque, you should look into a custom hybrid electric system. Electric motors make 100% of their torque at 0 (zero) RPM and don't have the inherent limitations that all piston engines carry.

Vetal
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OK guys, I'm sorry I was too enthusiastic, let the task be:
200Nm at 1500 rpm.
I hope this IS more than doable without rocket science? :)

P.S. In reality if adding SC to my system would get me just +50% torque at low rpms, I would be more than happy.

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jcd06 wrote:The Eaton M45 like one can find on the smaller Mercedes Kompressor models (1800cc M271 engine) is well suited for our beloved CA.

It gave me about 180Nm at 2000rpm and a max of 206hp at 6800rpm.

It simply can't give more air than for producing a solid 200hp but that is not the issue if your turbo takes over at 3500rpm...
This is basically everything I'm saying. I tried to fit the exact same supercharger, but gave up because I didn't want to give up my A/C. Based on his experience, 180Nm @ 2K rpm is about the best you're going to get. Trying to get another 20Nm 500 rpm lower is too much to ask.

I would imagine that if you asked him, he was likely very happy with the low end performance.

Vetal
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VW manages to get 220Nm out of it's tiny twincharged 1.4L at 1500, so 200Nm should be double on 1.8 (yes probably VW blower is more efficient etc.)
But as I said, even +50% down low would work fine for such [seemingly] small amount of fabrication. I just want to find smth. clutched like Eaton M62, also it looks much much shorter so would fit in line with crank pulley

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Vetal wrote:VW manages to get 220Nm out of it's tiny twincharged 1.4L at 1500, so 200Nm should be double on 1.8 (yes probably VW blower is more efficient etc.)
But as I said, even +50% down low would work fine for such [seemingly] small amount of fabrication. I just want to find smth. clutched like Eaton M62, also it looks much much shorter so would fit in line with crank pulley
Why not source a complete 1.4 TFSI system then, and adapt it to the CA? It definitely has every element you need, since it does exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Probably will need to up the supercharger speed a bit for the 1.8.

If you can fabricate, and not dead set on SC+turbo, do something like this: http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7446
BMW used a system operating on the same principle on quite a couple of I4 and I6 diesels, up to 3.0l . Maybe they still do. It's goes by the name of KKK R2S. Google it.
I looked on german ebay some time ago, there were plenty complete setups for sale, and price wasn't through the roof, either. Get one from the biggest 4 cyl, with manifold, and have an adapter plate cut. Or get one from a bigger 6 cyl, and weld your own manifold. IMO, it would be cleaner, no fooking around with a belt setup, SC bypass valve, etc. Some simple pneumatic control would probably suffice.


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