HELP: To4E turbos

[DriFt3r]

I was wondering which one of these will be better for the ka motor as in effiecency and all. Also what does do they mean my THRUST BEARING?

.60 A/R HOUSING

60 TRIM WHEEL

TURBINE SPECS:

.63 A/R HOUSING

STAGE 3 WHEEL

standard with 270 degree thrust bearing

60 A/R HOUSING

57 TRIM WHEEL

TURBINE SPECS:

.48 A/R HOUSING

STAGE 3 WHEEL

standard with 270 degree thrust bearing

[DriFt3r]

One more thing, I want to get the most power with the least amount of lag. which will be better for that?

[illspace]

most power with least lag isnt possible

buy a z28

[TopStreet240]

dont get the 57 trim wheel. All i have heard is bad things about that wheel.

[hannibal]

the second option with the .48 A/R turbine will give you less lag, but the first option with the 60 trim compressor should give you a better top end, and therefore more power.If youre looking to minimize lag, check out a T3/T4 turbo. It uses the samller T3 turbine with a T4 compressor.

Jay

[:: orion ::]

C'mon...lets stop tossing around bad info and hearsay...s***.

And I assume you are asking abut a T04E compressor, but specifically a T3/T4 turbo...

Look at the compressor maps - The 60-trim can give lots of flow, but sacrifices a little efficiency. The 57 can flow a lot, but isn't as good as a 50-trim.

But there's nothing wrong with a 57-trim - You give up 2 points of efficiency for more ultimate flow - Good if you need 420rwhp rather than 400rwhp - But it's better to have the 50 for 200-350 IMO...

The best KA turbo for 250-350rwhp is a T3/T4 with 50-trim TO4E compressor - .63 A/R hot side with stage III wheel will give full boost by 3200rpm.

Again, learn to read compressor maps, plot a KA at different RPM and boost points - You'll see what I mean.

Later - Brian

[C-Kwik]

Orion hit the nail on the head here...

I will add one thing though. A turbo is a big investment. Think about what your ultimate goal is. If you are going to want more power later, don't settle for the cheaper smaller turbo and look to upgrade later. It will take you even longer and cost you more money in the long run to get to the final result you wanted. Plan ahead.

[WDRacing]

Try to get a 360 thrust bearing if the option is available. Or go with a full ball bearing turbo. If you do decide to go with the TO4E I would opt for the .63 AR. It might lag a bit, but will be better for top end power. It really depends on how much boost your gonna run and what power your looking for.

WD

[DriFt3r]

My goal is to get around 400-450 rwhp. So what you guys are saying is that I should get the .60 trim with the .63 A/R. How about the 60 trim with the .89 A/R. Will that inprove in RWHP?

[:: orion ::]

That can improve flow due to less restriction on the exhaust side, and will increase top end considerably, but will kill spool. You'dd be well above 4000 for full boost with that large A/R.

If you really want 400-450rwhp, then go with a .63 A/R and a stage V wheel rather than the stage III...again, spool will suffer, but not as badly.

Max flow for a T04E 60-trim is about 47lbs/min, which is roughly ~450rwhp - Thing is, on a KA, ~25psi will probably net you a little over 400rwhp. So look at the map - PR of 2.8, and 45lbs/min at 6000rpm is off the map...

You need to pick a larger turbo...

Check out the T66 and shoot for ~20psi - That'll get you there I'd bet. And a PR of 2.44 and 45lbs/min will place you dead in the middle of the 76% range...awesome.

Or shoot for less power and run the T04E...

Later - Brian

[andrave]

you guys talking about a T04E or a T3/T04E hybrid? I saw both being tossed around, and I thought the T3 turbine housing was kinda small for a 2.4 liter.Just trying to clarify it since orion said T3/T04E but others just said T04E and some specified the compressor housing as a T04E. So which is it?

[hannibal]

theyre talking about the T3/T04E hybrid turbo.Most people (and most kits, XS and F-Max) use a T3 turbine cause it gives you faster spool up than a T4 turbine.I dont think the T3 turbine is too small for a 2.4L. Yeah the honda guys use T3 turbines, but the KA's turbo uses a larger A/R than say a B16 turbo would.

What are 270* and 360* thrust bearings?

How do you decide that a T3 turbine is too small and you need to step up to a T4 turbine? Do they have turbine maps??

Jay

[WDRacing]

Actually they're talking about the TO4E series when they're talking about lag problems. The T3 turbine section can be basically be any AR and still spool under 4000. But the TO4 is another story entirely. I had the TO4E on my RB20, it was a 60 trim stg III wheel with an AR of .81 which was way to friggin big for a 2.0. I saw full boost around 5100 rpm. But it would pull your teeth out on boost. Fortunately my redline was 8500 so I could use the slower spooling turbine.

I had the RB20 spitting out 498hp at 28 psi.

You can look into the TO4R as well. If you want a biiger turbine and decent spool your gonna have to go full ball bearing. Which is better anyway. Like Brian said, the T66 and T67 are also good turbos.

WD

[andrave]

I know this may be beyond the scope of our convo here, but I've read from people that switched from "T" series turbos to garrett "GT" series turbos that they get spool up in some cases thousands of rpm's quicker. But those turbos are often 3 times what a simple T4 or other T combo would cost.

[:: orion ::]

AFAIK, the GT series is ball bearing...and spool up will be quicker, but not by 1000rpm...no way.

And spool is mostly determined by turbine size (A/R) and wheel...so intial spool will be basically the same for similarly sized turbos, ball-bearing or not. But transitional response, such as shifting (off boost, the quickly back on...over your typical RPM spool point) will be better.

Later - Brian

[WDRacing]

I read a few articles on this awhile back, I'll see if I can locate them. The GT series was shown to come on boost anywhere from 570 to 700 rpm faster then the same trim turbo of non GT spec. And like Brian said, the transition between gears is better, which is actually a bigger difference then most people think.

WD

[illspace]

How much increased effeciency does the stage V wheel provide, at what expense of lag? Will the t3/to4e .50 trim with the .63A/R upgraded to a stage V wheel see full boost before 4k rpm? thanks...

[KApwr]

How much increased effeciency does the stage V wheel provide, at what expense of lag? Will the t3/to4e .50 trim with the .63A/R upgraded to a stage V wheel see full boost before 4k rpm? thanks...

Stage V will not give you increased effieciency in this application because it's teamed up with a 50 trim. Now if you go with a 60-1 or GT61 then it would help give you more peak hp due to the larger turbine wheel with a little more lag. Check out this graph:http://www.executivecleancar.c...o.jpg

Old turbo is with T3/T04E 50trim (.60 A/R), stage 3 (.63 A/R??)and is the jagged graph. Chris switched over to a stage V and upgraded to 60 trim compressor. Keep in mind that you can't really exactly compare the 2 directly because the old turbo was on his motor with ported heads and such but you can see the powerband differences between the two. Let's hear your interpretations of it. If you're aiming for 400-450 whp, you can achieve this with a 50 trim with proper engine management but prolly will be maxing out its effieciency. Pornflakes just made 410whp @ 1.2 bar on a t3/T04E turbo with a TEC3 but i'm not sure on the specs. If you really want a good turbo for >450whp go with the SC61 since it's GT61 wheel is one of the most effiecient around.

[C-Kwik]

theyre talking about the T3/T04E hybrid turbo.Most people (and most kits, XS and F-Max) use a T3 turbine cause it gives you faster spool up than a T4 turbine.I dont think the T3 turbine is too small for a 2.4L. Yeah the honda guys use T3 turbines, but the KA's turbo uses a larger A/R than say a B16 turbo would.

What are 270* and 360* thrust bearings?

How do you decide that a T3 turbine is too small and you need to step up to a T4 turbine? Do they have turbine maps??

Jay

Actually, both the XS and Nsport kits use T4 Turbines. Don't listen to what XS's website says. I have their kit. It's a straight T4.

As far as the T3 turbine being too small, it depends on your HP goals. A larger turbine will spool slower, but will have a lot less backpressure at high flow rates which makes it easier on the motor itself since the pumping losses will be lower and with a large compressor section, it will not have to spin as fast to reach a certain boost level. All other things equal and with a propert tune, the larger turbo wil make more HP overall. Keep in mind that the volume of exhaust air gets multiplied with boost since more air is going in. At Higher RPM's and boost, the turbine can start to choke the motor quite a bit due to high backpressure. Especially if the compressor is being overworked as well.

I've only seen turbine maps for the Garrett GT series turbos. The read differently than a compressor map and the math to figure out how to plot your points wil be significantly harder to do as there are a lot more variables. For turbine choice, I usually try to take in mind the comments of others who have certain turbines. Then you can choose depending on the results you want.

[canadians14]

If you are using the T04E setup with 50 trim .63 A/R and the stage three wheel AND a ball bearing turbo upgrade what kind of boost levels would be suitable ... i would be planning to run between 8 and 9 with stock internals ... would this low boost be choking the turbo too much ? i know you can plot the theoretical points on a compressor map but i was looking more for someone with first hand experience .. i saw nathans setup but he is planning on making 75 - 100 HP more than me ...

[andrave]

8-9 psi? you don't need a to4E for sure... I'd think a T04B or smaller could handle it. man this post is old...

[Nathan]

While we have this thread revived...I'm thinking seriously of trying to trade my whole turbo for a new one with the right turbine housing and a 60 trim compressor...OR stepping up to a T3/T04R, I'm only worried that the T3/T04R wouldn't spool up in time and would be a bit mismatched. It seems to be such a new turbo that I cant find compressor maps for it either What does team NICO think of this new badboy? http://store.yahoo.com/cheaptu....html

[SSS]

Is anyone here running a Turbonetics T3/T4 hybrid by any chance?

[Nathan]

Hmm, after more research the T04R compressor is frieking huge, straight T04R's have seen >6-700hp on Supras. I'm thinking it'd be mismatched if paired with a T3 turbine and would only really get efficient at HIGH boost. It's sorta like a T66 I believe, only maybe capable of a shade more power. I think I'll just see about switching to a 60 trim...although it WOULD be cool to have the huge turbo

[andrave]

I have always wondered just why people go with a T3 turbine on such a mammoth compressor, I don't know what the effects of that are, but it has always seemed mismatched...

[WDRacing]

I don't know personally, but I would wonder about compressor surge with the TO4R. Although, I've seen the T67 mated with the T3 exhaust side and do very well.

You should buy it and let me know...heh.

WD

[C-Kwik]

I don't know personally, but I would wonder about compressor surge with the TO4R. Although, I've seen the T67 mated with the T3 exhaust side and do very well.

You should buy it and let me know...heh.

WD

To clarify, I'm sure WD is talking about surge problems of running a T04R with a T3 turbine. Too small a turbine with too large a compressor would put some of the boost in front of the surgeline, where you do NOT want to be. Not unless you want to destroy your turbo bearings.

[WDRacing]

Yeah, sorry for that, with the T3 exhaust section. Thx againC-Kwik. Although, if you can run it without any surge problems, it would be a very nice turbo to use.

For drag I would go with the straight TO4R and the .70 AR housing.

WD

[Sil240]

most power with least lag isnt possible

buy a z28

Camaro's SUCK in anything other than Straight line performance

[Nathan]

Camaro's SUCK in anything other than Straight line performance

Don't be stupid, there are plenty of Camaros that can outhandle 240's...even stock for stock.