Glock 21

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Mr1der
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Massive recoil on .45 acp?

Women are gonna tell you to stop being a p**** on that one.

The 21 is a fine pistol and .45 is a great round. It seems to be easier to get ammo for than some of the others. 9mm is just depressing to find at non gouged prices.

Greg, if you like the way the pistol feels in your hand, go for it. They're a solid buy. Most ranges will have a Glock of some sort to rent, likely a 21, 22 and 17 all together.


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Mr1der wrote:Massive recoil on .45 acp?Women are gonna tell you to stop being a p**** on that one.
lol - actually, a lot of police dept's, SWAT teams, defense contractors all "shop around" for the right calibers that their officers should have. its one of the most important topics because higher pressure rounds ARE harder to shoot.
most dept's use glock17 or the glock22 (same frame/size) just a different caliber 9mm or .40. did you know that the glock17 is the most widely used service/duty pistol world wide. wonder why that is :confused:
The 21 is a fine pistol and .45 is a great round.
their quality or effectiveness was never in question. i do think its a great gun, but its not the best home defense/carry weapon. 9mm, .40, .45 all almost perform the same.
It seems to be easier to get ammo for than some of the others. 9mm is just depressing to find at non gouged prices.
thats only now, during this ammo shortage crisis. (because most people own 9mm.) once s*** returns to normal, .45 will once again be more expensive. and why do you think 9mm is so popular now a days? ;)
Greg, if you like the way the pistol feels in your hand, go for it. They're a solid buy. Most ranges will have a Glock of some sort to rent, likely a 21, 22 and 17 all together.
the g17, g21, g22 will ALL feel the same - that is until its fired. lol

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Couple things, saying massive recoil is total fiction. My G21 has a barely perceivable difference in kick when compared to the G22 and slightly more than the G19, I fired them back to back. The G21 comes with a 10 rnd and 2 13 rnd mags. If you can't do it with 13 rnds, just reload, OR buy a magazine that holds more as they are available.

The muzzle flash will bigger, but any muzzle flash will be blinding at night with the lights off. As far as loud goes...are we really using how loud a gun is as a purchasing factor? 99.99999% of all the shots will be done with ear defenders on, at a range. The odds of Greg discharging a firearm in his house/car are extremely slim. But because it could happen, the 9mm and .40 are extremely loud without hearing protection, the .45 will be a little louder. What you'll notice most is air displacement. The .45 is a big dude.

Price is negligible. Even before the Obama chaos .45 was only a little more expensive than 9mm and not any more expensive than the .40. If you go to a range today, you're more apt to find .45 on the shelf than you are 9mm, because 9mm is extremely popular and is higher in demand. I'll note that I can't find any ammo anywhere and have been forced to buy online.

I don't dislike the 9mm, I have a High Power and I truly love it. No gun feels better in my hand and I've held hundreds. But if I'm going to put someone down with one round, I'll take a round of .45 ACP please.

Results from ammoseek are:
9mm a box of 50 for $37
.45 ACP is $24 for 50.


Just my .02. The great caliber debate will go on for as long as we're shooting hard rounds.

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WDRacing wrote:Couple things, saying massive recoil is total fiction.

its not. higher pressure rounds cause much harder slide recoil, more stress on the gun, which directly relates to the users wrist/arm/hand developing fatigue much faster.
My G21 has a barely perceivable difference in kick when compared to the G22 and slightly more than the G19
are you now resorting to comparing your glock21 & glock22 (full size) to the smaller sized frame of a glock19? really? how is that apples to apples? guess what - i have tried a g19 & my g17 (both 9mm) back to back, and the glock19 gave slightly more recoil/stress to my hands than my glock17! of course a smaller framed 9mm weapon is gonna feel similar to those larger framed weapons who have larger calibers - its basic physics. lets stick to g17/21/22 only since they are the same size/frame.
The muzzle flash will bigger, but any muzzle flash will be blinding at night with the lights off. As far as loud goes...are we really using how loud a gun is as a purchasing factor? 99.99999% of all the shots will be done with ear defenders on, at a range.
idk about you, but i buy guns based on how they will be when i really need them, versus how tacticool it will be at the range ;)
The odds of Greg discharging a firearm in his house/car are extremely slim. But because it could happen, the 9mm and .40 are extremely loud without hearing protection, the .45 will be a little louder.
even a 9mm will give you hearing damage if fired inside a car; maybe even permanent hearing damage! but a .45 will make it even more painful and disorienting during a time that will already be stressed. not cool.
you're more apt to find .45 on the shelf than you are 9mm, because 9mm is extremely popular and is higher demand.
gee... i wonder why? lol
But if I'm going to put someone down with one round, I'll take a round of .45 ACP please.
9mm, .40, .45 all show very similar results during ballistic testing, when conducted by the feds. they all passed the 12inches of penetration on ballistic jell. anything further simply over penetrates the body and exits uselessly.
its movie-talk if 1 round out of a pistol "puts someone down". its not uncommon that 1 round of a typical 9mm/40/45 doesnt put someone down. most of the time its the knowledge of being shot at, that causes someone to stop doing what they are doing, and flee. immediate incapacitation doesnt come into play unless your shot is along the spine, head, or heart. (sometimes even head/heart shots are not instantly incapacitating). shot placement is critical - and for that reason alone i'd rather have a 9mm with more ammo in its standard mag, then the less amounts offered by .45 (unless you have a mag sticking out the bottom)
Just my .02. The great caliber debate will go on for as long as we're shooting hard rounds.
:werd: its mostly perpetuated by those will small pee-pee's lol we all know of those who claim: if it aint a 45 its for my girlfriend to shoot.

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The 21 isn't going to feel Tue same as a 17, the frame is a good bit bigger to accommodate the 10mm round. (the G20 was designed before they fit the frame for the .45 auto round.)

And yes, the big three are all going to penetrate 12" or better, but the 45 is gonna punch a bigger wound channel.

Any of them are gonna get it done, but I love me some .45 for its soft shooting nature.

And God I wish ammo would come back down to normal. The whole reason I got my 19 was to have a cheaper pistol to shoot and something easy to teach a new shooter on.

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On muzzle flash, any of the new modern self defense rounds use powder specifically designed to produce as little flash as possible.

They're all gonna be loud :)

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The .40 is a high pressure rnd, the .45 is not.

I used the Glock 19 because that's what was on-hand. Being that my G21 only kicked slightly more than the smaller framed G19, I would think my point about perceived recoil was even more on point, since the G17 has more weight to absorb more of the recoil. By your own words a G17 will have even less kick than the G19, which validates my claim about the G21 not having "massive recoil". I'm not saying it doesn't have recoil dude, I'm saying you're using extreme hyperbole in your examples. The .45 has more recoil, yes, but it's completely manageable.

Muzzle flash, I haven't fired the .45 and the 9mm back to back, so I can't say how much more one has than the other. Is more muzzle flash and more air displacement a bad thing in confined quarters, you betcha.

Why is the 9mm more popular, because it's more common. There are more 9mm pistols than there are .45. It's also very popular because of the higher capacity.

I happen to like the .45 ACP.

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Mr1der wrote:The 21 isn't going to feel Tue same as a 17, the frame is a good bit bigger to accommodate the 10mm round. (the G20 was designed before they fit the frame for the .45 auto round.)
your right, the g21 is 2mm wider, and 5mm longer.
PS: you do realize the 21 is a 45 auto right? the g20 is technically their 10mm pistol
And yes, the big three are all going to penetrate 12" or better, but the 45 is gonna punch a bigger wound channel.
true
Image
Any of them are gonna get it done, but I love me some .45 for its soft shooting nature.
soft? a 45 is anything BUT soft. its rough, loud, hard, and the recoil isnt fun. i think you are blinded by the "its the larger of the typical calibers carried". its funny but you see a lot of video's and talk in the gun community about how there is a select few guys that only want .45's. its like a Napoleon syndrome or something lol
The whole reason I got my 19 was to have a cheaper pistol to shoot and something easy to teach a new shooter on.
get a conversion kit. i got my advantage arms and love it. its perfect for beginner shooters, for me to practice with, and for cheap small game hunting.(no reason to waste center fire rounds on small game)

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Also, check out the Grizzly Extreme ammo, for both 9mm and .45 acp. I'm going to try out some of this ammo for personal defense.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBQSUn02KC8

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ImStricken wrote: soft? a 45 is anything BUT soft. its rough, loud, hard, and the recoil isnt fun. i think you are blinded by the "its the larger of the typical calibers carried". its funny but you see a lot of video's and talk in the gun community about how there is a select few guys that only want .45's. its like a Napoleon syndrome or something lol
I'll be doing having some more range time on Wednesday. The guy I usually shoot with has 4-5 Glocks. I'll pay particular attention to the recoil and flash and report back.

I prefer the .45 and I'm 6'2" 220...

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WDRacing wrote:I used the Glock 19 because that's what was on-hand. Being that my G21 only kicked slightly more than the smaller framed G19, I would think my point about perceived recoil was even more on point
not a fair comparison in my opinion. we are talking about full sized 45 vs a smaller sized 9mm. of course the smaller framed will give you a higher recoil shock. so the comparison between the two is kinda a mute point if you are simply comparing the recoil of the rounds.

By your own words a G17 will have even less kick than the G19, which validates my claim about the G21 not having "massive recoil".
idk why the g19 even made it into the discussion- its a totaly diff beast, being a smaller frame. the larger of the two, the g17 will have less kick because both the g17 & 19 are 9mm. but how can you compare the two against a full size 45? greg is looking at a full-size, so thats why i am only bringing in a g17 into this. bringing in a g19 is worthless since, he is not looking at a compact/smaller frame.

just like the g27 will have much more recoil than a g22 - yet both have the same .40 cal round. see my point now? the smaller the firearm - the large the recoil. so in this discussion of larger frames- the smaller g19 has no place.
The .45 has more recoil, yes, but it's completely manageable.
absolutely it is. i never said its unmanageable. i am simply saying that its a rougher round in general to shoot/carry as a ccw. its a much harder recoil, louder, and you end up having less ammo to shoot if you are in a scenario of multiple attackers(thats the scariest & most important part of it all)
Muzzle flash, I haven't fired the .45 and the 9mm back to back, so I can't say how much more one has than the other. Is more muzzle flash and more air displacement a bad thing in confined quarters, you betcha.
to be 100% honest, that also depends on the type of ammo being used. so i agree that muzzle flash can be slightly altered to your liking.
Why is the 9mm more popular, because it's more common. There are more 9mm pistols than there are .45. It's also very popular because of the higher capacity.
i agree. now ask yourself why its more desirable, acquired, and used?
I happen to like the .45 ACP.
dont get me wrong, if i find a great deal on a used 40 or 45 - I WILL BUY IT lol... its just not something id want to invest in if i was buying a new/first gun. and since greg is buying his first gun in a long time - i think this discussion we have going in is super valuable.

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WDRacing wrote:I prefer the .45 and I'm 6'2" 220...
im 5'11" and 200lbs, with smaller hands, followed up by girly for-arms arms LOL (shut up, im half jewish, and working with what i got LOL)

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You're missing the point with the G19. It's in the conversation because it's what I had to shoot at the time. It's NOT useless or mute, why, because the smaller framed gun had slightly less recoil, so the larger one will be even less noticeable. Get it? The G21 will barely have more noticeable recoil than the full size G17.

Putting holes in your massive recoil statement. Which, like I said twice now, was my only point. Yes it has more recoil, but it's NOT a lot.

The only added benefit the 9mm has over the .45 is the capacity...that's it.

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WDRacing wrote:because the smaller framed gun had slightly less recoil
the smaller framed gun had less recoil, because it was a smaller round(9mm)! you are not comparing apples to apples.
  • large gun @.45
    smaller gun @9mm
thats why i view your point about the g19 as worthless

you cant judge two different sized guns - that also have two different calibers. and then claim that the rounds are almost identical- so i might as well have the larger sized & larger round(45).

if you want a true test/comparison on recoil, one must compare (near) identical weapons:
G20, G21, G17 (certainly don't involve a g19 - because the smaller frame on the g19/9mm will give you near identical recoil as a full sized .40)

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for example: i qualified with a duty issued g22 (.40) and an off duty G27 (40). the smaller frame g27 gave me a considerably larger recoil than the full sized g22; even though the round was the same. this is why i am dismissing your g19 point- when we are talking about full size frames such as the g20/21/22/17

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Dude...

Does the G17 have less recoil than the G19? Answer = yes
Baring that in mind the G21 had a barely perceivable difference in recoil compared to the smaller framed G19. So in relation to the G17, what's it going to have? = Even less of a perceivable difference.

How do you not understand what I'm saying here? Dismiss what you like, but you're doing so because you're failing to comprehend.

Lets take 3 cars. We'll call them the G21, G19 and G17. The G21 runs the 1/4 in 20 seconds. It barely beats the G19 which runs it in 21 seconds. The G17 is faster than the G19 but slower than the G21. Is the difference between their times measurable or not? If it is measurable, is the difference going to be more or less than the difference between the G21 and the G19?

We're not talking about frame size, we're talking about recoil. You can compare different firearms in the same category you know as long as the test is the same. In this case, the test is perceived recoil.

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WDRacing wrote:We're not talking about frame size
actually we are. greg asked to get a review on the g21 (so that tells me he wants a FULL sized handgun). i offered an alternative to the g21, which is the g17 (another FULL sized handgun). its the same size (minus a mm or 2) but it is chambered in 9mm, which gives some advantages/disadvantages (in my opinion more good, than bad).

by you bringing in the g19 into this FULL SIZE gun convo, you are already bringing in a whole new category. you are trying to prove that a 9mm is almost the same recoil as a 45, by stating you compared a g21 to a g19. bringing in smaller frames(g19), which have harsher recoils than their fullsize 9mm counter parts, isnt a fair comparison. you brought in the g19, in some way to claim that because you compared a g19(compact) to g21(full size) - that the recoil was so similar, so according to you, a 9mm round will give the same feedback as a 45 - when thats false (because the two guns were different in size, thus skewing the results). each gun gave back different feedback due to the size differences. the smaller frame g19 WILL give greater recoil feedback, thus being very comparable to the full size g21. so you cant conclude that a g19 & g17 will/should feel the same.

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if you told me you compared the g19 to the g38(.45GAP) then you'd have a point - because both are 187mm long and 30mm wide, and 127mm tall

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Are you really recoil sensitive?

If you wanna have some fun debating calibers, look st the current trend with police departments. There's A LOT going to .45

I don't mean that as an attack or anything, but some people are more sensitive than others.

Good stance and grip will go along way in controlling the pistols as will nice ergonomics in the pistol (this a bit more subjective as no ones's hands are the same.)

All this being said, Greg won't go wrong with a 21 as long as it's comfortable for him.

I DESPISE .40 S&W.

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ImStricken wrote: i have tried a g19 & my g17 (both 9mm) back to back, and the glock19 gave slightly more recoil/stress to my hands than my glock17! of course a smaller framed 9mm weapon is gonna feel similar to those larger framed weapons who have larger calibers - its basic physics.
You made the statement that the .45acp has massive recoil. I'm just trying to say it doesn't and that you're exaggerating.

Here's some basic physics for ya smaht guy. In your own words, you said the G19 gave slightly more recoil than the G17. I said the G21 had slightly more recoil than the G19. So regardless of frame size, the G21 will have an even less perceivable recoil when compared to the G17. I didn't have a G17, but because I'm not an idiot, I can make the leap that a full size model will be even easier to control, making it very similar to the G21.

You either agree or you don't. Period.

Would a better comparison be between the G17 and the G21, of course it would. But I'm simply refuting your recoil argument. That's it.

Have a nice day.

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yes i have smaller hands/arms and i can tell/judge recoil a lot more than same some guy with larger hands/arms. recoil is a big deciding factor as to what weapons dept's buy. and currently in my area many dept's are going to .40

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Did you check out those Grizzly rounds? Have you ever tried them?

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WDRacing wrote:So regardless of frame size, the G21 will have an even less perceivable recoil when compared to the G17.
if you say so lol

45acp: 185 gr - 1,225 ft/s - 616 ft·lbf - (835 J)

9mm: 124 gr - 1,200 ft/s - 382 ft·lbf - 518 J

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I don't have dainty little b**** hands though :poke:

JFWY

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WDRacing wrote:I don't have dainty little b**** hands though :poke:

JFWY
LOLOLOLOL i do!
as stated before, i'm half jew - so im working with what i got lol :facepalm:

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WDRacing wrote:Did you check out those Grizzly rounds? Have you ever tried them?
try them on what, paper targets? lol

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It's important to know where they place and feed before you carry.

For anti personnel, it's hard to beat federal hst as long as they cycle.

One thing to consider, when we talk about what round a department buys, it's a compromise.

Same with the duty weapons.

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Mr1der wrote:It's important to know where they place and feed before you carry.
i know i was mocking, about how NJ doesnt give you the ability to have an outdoor / private range where you can shoot stuff (water jugs, wood, etc) and see the damage a round creates.

if i lived in a more free state - id shoot tons of crap before coming to decision as to what i carry. hell, even H.P.'s are disputed as legal or not. it all depends how the law is interpreted. and many guys find it so scary - that they simply dont even bother with any HP's and settle on FMJ's and call it a day

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Meanwhile, they're settling for a round that will travel through twice as much sheet rock after it plows straight through a person. Sometimes people are stupid. FMJ is great for animals, not so much for people.

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WDRacing wrote:Meanwhile, they're settling for a round that will travel through twice as much sheet rock after it plows straight through a person. Sometimes people are stupid. FMJ is great for animals, not so much for people.
i agree man - but we in New comuJersey are afraid of the cops. just a few months ago someone got arrested and charged for "discharge of a firearm" for shooting his bow & arrow in his backyard.


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