G50 Aftermarket Injector Alternative!!??

[Q45denver]

Don't know how to post pics. Might be able to email some.

[Q451990]

I got the injectors back from Deatschwerks with the test results. Here's a link to the reports as a .pdf

http://www.q45.org/gallery2/d/...s.pdf?

Heath

[elwesso]

i thought I remember seeing somewhere that deatschwerks could adjust your injector flow so that they were closer matched? Maybe it was just with phase 1 or something?

Either way, interesting information... 4% at 650 RPM might be around 20 RPM on the power balance test, surely that would be enough to notice however would that be enough to cause a rough idle? may not be OEM perfect but sounds close!

so if im understanding this correctly, the new phase 2 OEM replacements are seeing not so many failures? If thats the case, these injectors may not provide much over the OEM, especially since the cost isnt that much different?

[Q451990]

Either way, interesting information... 4% at 650 RPM might be around 20 RPM on the power balance test, surely that would be enough to notice however would that be enough to cause a rough idle? may not be OEM perfect but sounds close!

so if im understanding this correctly, the new phase 2 OEM replacements are seeing not so many failures? If thats the case, these injectors may not provide much over the OEM, especially since the cost isnt that much different?

There is no doubt that these are a slight compromise - and a major unknown for long term. But the OEM are a risk now as well, so who knows.

If you look at the flow rates and variance on the third page, the spread is much lower at low flow rates, so I don't think it would be 20 RPM at idle. The duty cycle at idle is lower than the tested rates even at 20%, so I would think they're well matched at cruise at idle, but not so much at WOT.

If these don't perform well, they're coming out and heading back to O'Reilly!

I also plan on matching them as well as possible per bank so that the ECU can adjust the pulse width if needed.

I may try to get in touch with BWD (or Standard Automotive's) engineer to see if these test results are what they would expect. Obviously #1 is the worst of the batch...

Heath

[maxnix]

When you do, ask for him to give you 48 and let you choose the best matched 8, with him knowing the other 32 can be grouped for best match.

I doubt anyone but Dennis would notice the 4% variation at idle, and none at WOT.

[Q451990]

When you do, ask for him to give you 48 and let you choose the best matched 8, with him knowing the other 32 can be grouped for best match.

I will ask, although I'm not sure that I want to spend the $$$ to have them matched by Deatschwerks - I'm assuming the free testing was a one time deal.

If they actually test each of them at the factory, I might be able to see if they could come up with a way of micro matching them as sets and selling them to us through Deatschwerks (if they would be interested) or another vendor channel. They don't sell directly to the public.

Heath

[Q451990]

Good news - the BWD injectors are in! After about 10 days of off and on work...

The job included all 23 (or was it 24) PCV and cooling hoses under the plenum... new plenum to runner gaskets, cleaning the runners, plenum, throttle body, EGR valve, etc. with about 15 cans of brake parts cleaner. I also used new fuel rails (to accommodate the phase II injectors), new fuel injector subharness, new knock sensors and subharness, new rail to runner spacers (phase 1 style) and replaced the rail hold-down spacers with two washers to pull them a little tighter to the runners. I also decided to drink the TexasOil koolaid and try some Stabilant 22 contact enhancer on all of the electrical connections.

The engine feels as strong as ever...the idle is very smooth. I tried to lug the engine as much as possible by gently pulling it uphill at 40-45MPH in 4th, without letting the T/C unlock - no bucking! Roars like a demon at WOT, but it always feels strong to me after a couple of weeks of driving the truck.

I have some idle tweaking to do... I removed the set screw in the AAC valve during cleaning, and just set it to 2.5 turns out when I put it back together, so it's idling a bit high. I will spend some quality time with it with the laptop tomorrow.

Of course, this doesn't speak to any longevity claims with the BWD injectors, but they seem to perform nicely in the 15 miles that I have driven them so far!

Q45Tech, if you are interested, I could take the Q to the inlaws for Thanksgiving if you want to try to meet up to run some Consult trials on the Wednesday afternoon before.

Heath

[Unnatural1]

I think BWD is owned by Standard Motors...

This is true. They are the same company now. Not sure who owns who but I think you got it right.

Regardless, for the price, I'll stick with the DeatschWerks injectors I'm currently using. They are much cheaper than anything else I've found, they come with testing results and a 12 month warranty.

[Q451990]

Regardless, for the price, I'll stick with the DeatschWerks injectors I'm currently using.

I have a great deal of respect for Deatschwerks! They did the testing on these BWDs at no charge - which allowed me to evaluate these injectors.

My only reason for trying the BWD injectors is that they are supposedly E85 compatible - while OEM phase 1 and phase 2 injectors are failing from E10. We have seen some repeat failures of OEM new injectors within a year or two... so my hope was to find something that is sustainable without pulling the plenum every time I change the oil... we'll see how it goes.

Heath

[Infinitiguy19]

Sorry if I skimmed the thread but, Are these injectors plug and play for us with phase 1 injectors or are they phase 2 only?

Will the manufacture make a phase 1 injector so we don't have to go cut our engines up if we do go this way?

[Q451990]

BWD also makes a Phase 1 injector... but the cost of the Phase 1 injectors is substantially more, maybe even more than Joe's price? The cost of the conversion even with new rails and subharness was less than the cost of the phase 1 replacements. All of my research for these injectors was for the phase 2 design.

Heath

[Infinitiguy19]

Do they have a website site so I can lookup the prices and compare them?

Is it this one: http://www.bwdbrand.com/web_ap...ID=92?

[VIP Q45t]

I would also like to know where I can get those BWD injectors?

I am also willing to try these injectors. Especially if the stock and other aftermarket injectors are failing from E10.

Since I owned my Q for about a month so far...I just need something cleared up. My 1994 Q45 takes phase 2 injectors?

Thanks.

[Infinitiguy19]

Yea same here 2 injectors ohm fine but are just clogged. I tried Redline S1, BG44K and ISO-Heet. and nothing

Is there anything else I can try?

I will see how much a BG44K fuel rail flush costs and go that route if no one has anything to suggest.

[maxnix]

Clean plenum too? That's great news for us yet to be force fed ethanol.

[Q451990]

The BWD Injectors are available at O'Reilly, AutoZone?, Advance Auto, etc... so check their web sites.

90-93 is Phase 1, 94-96 is Phase II - so VIP, you wouldn't need new rails or a new subharness unless yours is old and brittle. I would caution against mixing the BWD injectors with the OEM injectors, as their flow characteristics (at least the ones Deatschwerks tested for me) are a bit different than the OEM injectors... so I would only use them as a set or at a minimum in one rail (set of 4) so that the ECU can adjust for their differences. You don't want some cylinders running rich, and others running lean, and the ECU can only adjust them as a bank (left or right) since there are only two O2 sensors for it to see what's going on.

ppastos - If your injectors are ohming correctly - how do you know that they're clogged? In other words, how do you know if it's a fuel issue or a spark issue on that cylinder... I'm assuming you are looking at the power balance results with ScanTech. In any case I think you're right to start with a pressurized rail flush. Then check your spark plugs and coil packs on those corresponding cylinders... etc.

Heath

[Q45denver]

Good to hear you have it back on the road, Heath. Did you encounter any problems with the installation? Power and performance same as with phase 1's?

I'm recently replace the fuel pump on my 1995. These pumps also appear to have a issue with ethanol and other fuel additives taking them out. Fortunately it wasn't the fuel injectors this time.

Have you heard of any failures with purple phase 2 OEM injectors?

[3Q Jay]

Heath, thanks for the update and encouraging news---will be interested to hear the long term report.

denver- i have not heard of any 67u10 failures--but would like to know experience of others. I have 8 67u10 in silver with ages ranging from 3@ 4 years and 20k miles, to last 4 at 20months and 7 k miles. all on CA E10 crapgas.

[maxnix]

I'm recently replace the fuel pump on my 1995. These pumps also appear to have a issue with ethanol and other fuel additives taking them out.

It's the water the ethanol contains or attracts. Use ISO Heet every other tank. It'll save your tank too if it is not corroded yet.

[mattd1979]

I've been using a bottle of Isoheet at every fill-up. Is that bad? I know that each bottle treats up to 19 gallons and since it is a 22 gallon tank, I have been using the whole bottle unless of course the tank is half full, then I'd just use half of a bottle.

[Q451990]

Have you heard of any failures with purple phase 2 OEM injectors?

I thought I had, but then again I thought it was from you? So, maybe not...

Heath

[Infinitiguy19]

What about the plastic, How durable is it?

Only reason I ask is because 92Q45Guy up in NH was telling me that the knock sensors and injectors go bad because of the plastic gets brittle because of the heat.

Then again he used to change his oil by taking out the carbon canister, From which I have heard is as bad a hitting kids.

[Q45denver]

I thought I had, but then again I thought it was from you? So, maybe not...

Heath

Wasn't me, Maybe Q45Tech?

[Q451990]

I don't think so... until a few months ago it was very rare to see injector failures in the ATL area, so for the most part anyone in the area is just getting their first replacements now. We were the last to adpot the crapgas in the Southeast.

Heath

[Q451990]

Only reason I ask is because 92Q45Guy up in NH was telling me that the knock sensors and injectors go bad because of the plastic gets brittle because of the heat.

I think he's right on the knock sensors, but not the injectors. As far as we know, the injector failures are a result of internal seal failure from fuel additives - or possibly the case around the coil swells due to contact, causing the windings to stretch and break. In any case, the injectors are shown to be fine with real gas to 300K with regular cleaning.

As a side note the cases on both of my knock sensors were starting to crack at 91K miles and 18 years... They weren't throwing codes, but I'm sure they would have failed soon enough. Q45Tech once put some in an oven and checked to see at what temperature they cracked... but I think the repeated heat/cool cycles gets them as well, so I don't think it's necessary for an engine to overheat to crack the cases.

Heath

[Unnatural1]

The Dallas/Fort Worth area has been using E10 for at least a year now (same as everywhere I guess). I have not seen ANY increase in injector problems since. In fact, the only injector problems I've seen are from old Nissans . I've seen a few people fill up with E85 and wonder why their car doesn't run right or at all...but that's it so far.

Maybe we would better off if someone could build a custom fuel rail for top feed (cheaper!) injectors like I've seen done with the SR and KA engines!

[Infinitiguy19]

Hey just wondering are these injectors guarenteed to survive E10 and if so what is there warrenty?

If the injectors are good for E10 what about the o-rings don't they get eaten away by E10?

How much for the complete setup?

And I think it will take a couple of years till we know for sure if they are OK with E10, because mine were installed with the rails brand new I THINK in 2005.

[AlabamaDan]

Heath,

Are you running these in your Q yet?

DM

[Drake57]

...Maybe we would better off if someone could build a custom fuel rail for top feed (cheaper!) injectors like I've seen done with the SR and KA engines!

My feelings exactly, no maybe about it, and you forgot to mention the elimination of the chance of engine damage due to oring failure induced hydrolock.

I think an entire set of topfeed injectors may be had for the price of a single side fed injector, and connectors for same are cheap.

There are many, many flow rates available, there are bound to be numerous choices that will work, and work well. When/if the time comes, topfeed is what I'd like to go with.

[Denver90Q]

You could make a fortune if you could put a kit together for older Nissans. My #4 just went out on my 1995 (failed open) and dealer wants $1000 to replace it.

On a related matter does anyone know what the ohm readings (infinity?) are for injectors that fail open? The local infiniti dealer claims that usually the injectors fail open and that this can result in hydrolocking the engine.