Finally Going Top Mount t3!

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Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:45 pm

It's been a while since I've made a topic, but I figured I'd share my new setup. Hardware-wise I'm running a flipped t2 manifold with a t3 flange welded on, 550cc injectors, z32 mafs, and I'm pretty sure I'll be running a Precision 5457 with a .48 A/R. I originally planned on running a Holset hx30, but after doing some research I realized that it's too small for my power goals. I'll post some detailed pictures of the manifold when I get it back from my friend who is doing all the welding, but it looks like the CX Racing top mount t3 manifold.

For everyone that knows turbo sizes, do you think the 5457 in a .48 a/r is a good choice? It seems comparable to the Garrett Super 60, but Precision doesn't release compressor maps for their turbos so I can't tell where the KA would be on the map. It has a 54mm compressor wheel and a 57mm turbine wheel, pretty close to the Super 60 but it might spool sooner due to the billet wheel and Precision's new wheel design.

Here's a picture of it with the Holset on there, I was pretty close to having it running before coming across a compressor map for the hx30.

Image


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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Razi » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:03 pm

Bling bling! :yesnod

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:05 pm

What manifold is that teadstone/new ebay treadstone look alike or JGY??? Fitment looks pretty good! Still close to brakes but not too bad.

quoted form :http://www.homemadeturbo.com/showthread.php?t=56349

I found my notes, HX30 looked to be equivalent to .50 trim T3/T04E, but with Garrett GT-equivalent efficiency at 1.5+ pressure ratio. Basically, it's going to be about as good as a straight T3 "hp per psi"-wise until you go 10+ psi, and then it should start flowing pretty well. Expect 350 whp out of it, but you'll have to run some fairly high boost levels to get there. RJWaggs, keep in mind that hp is a function of tq @ rpm, and when Holset recommends the HX30 for 240 (crank) hp on a diesel... 2500-3000 rpm stationary diesel generator to be specific, which is what HX30 primarily come off of, that translates to a LOT of flow as tq is probably in the 400 ft/lb range at that point.


That might help i now rb guys love to run them. To say the least i know their are better options but you probly cant beat the price. Its kinda like the KKK turbos in a nutshell they are outdated to say the least. I have no idea if that applies here but eh GOODLUCK!!!!!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:41 pm

The manifold is the ssautochrome bottom mount t2, I just cut the flange off and had a t3 flange welded in it's place. Turbo placement is really good, my downpipe will be near the brake lines but I'll still be able to get a heat shield in between them.

I've heard a lot of varying info about the hx30, but the compressor map looks like it won't flow enough for my power goals. I have everything to run the hx30, but I'm afraid once I run it I won't be able to sell it as a brand new turbo and I won't get what I paid for it. Either way I know the 5457 will flow what I want it to and have the ability for more power in the future, so I'll probably stick with my plan to sell the hx30 and go with something different. Thanks for the info though, anything is better than nothing.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:44 pm

Here are some pictures of my manifold, like I said it's just a flipped bottom mount t2 with a t3 flange and external gate added on.

Image

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Image

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby sx moneypit » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:58 am

Nice work Chris!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:47 pm

i like the power steering reservoir location! good idea

I just got done finishing buddies car runnin a t3t4 fmu only so needless to say power comes on like a hurricane after 5k. He does have a slight manifold leak tho so that is most def. hurtin spool up time. Its like a slug out of boost because retarted base timing(fmu) and low compression forged pistons. Almost too much of a slug like not really streetable i guess ill see if exhuast leak fix helps later.

Just so for reference after running a t25 then driving a t3t4 on 8psi WOW big difference never knew. I just hope that 8:1 fmu is enough....... it seems most are getting away with 6:1 t25 set ups....


Whats the update on your snail search ive been intrested !

I picked up a thunderbird t3 decided a little too small for my goals right now waitin on your results! :dblthumb:

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:42 pm

I've decided on the 5457 with a .48 exhaust housing, all I want is quick spool so I'm going with the .48 over a .63. The thunderbird turbo is pretty similar tot he 5457, if I recall correctly it's a 60mm 60 trim compressor wheel with a .48 exhaust housing, spools decently and supports around 300whp. That turbo was on my list but I decided on the Precision because it has a billet wheel so cuts down a little on spool time (and sounds boss), it's brand new, vband turbine housing, and I can get it with a 3" inlet 2" outlet so I can keep my current intake and hotpipe setup. I'll be ordering it sometime next week, I'll post pictures when everything gets here.
Last edited by Chris28 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby WDRacing » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:41 am

I was going to do that same thing several times. The external wastegate weld was the only one that scared me, lots of angles. Yours came out great, love the support rods. Should spool pretty well, did you clean up the flange ports at all?

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:45 am

The head flange matched the ports pretty well, the collector area was cleaned up a little bit after welding but not too much. The flange was welded on at an angle for bmc clearance, but it left some decent gaps around the corners of the flange. Once it was all welded we ground down some areas so there weren't any crazy obstructions to the flow.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby SiDwAyZ240 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm

Real nice looking manifold. When you were first talking about that manifold I thought you were doing a SR cast manifold with a KA flange on it. Swear I was reading someone doing it with a wire welder. Your looks way better tho, with the vband and nice clean stainless.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:43 pm

Ive seen the sr cast manifold converted its pretty wicked looking! I did some digging on the cast welding and its preached that it should never been done and that it will never hold together. People put her in an oven/grill 500F (ive read) and go at it with some gloves on of course. I believe it needs to be documented on how to do it but it remains a grey area. Its kind of like heading aluminum cylinder heads then torquing them to a machined plate(called something....) with shims to counter the warp. This is "cannot be done on DOHC cylinder heads most machine shops claim but you can buy reman heads online......how do they get them back to usable condition. Yet another two reasons why i love the automotive field!

Back to the amazing manifold you've created along with what sounds like a great paired turbo size. Ill bet corky bell agrees although i lost my frigen book :facepalm: .

My thunderbird turbo is actually the IHI one used in 86 its the little brother. From thunderbird forums with their 2.3 they claim right in the ball park of 250hp from it. I called a local turbo shop and sadly parts are dime a dozen and they can only do a rebuild/balance. If a part needed replacement id be up the creek. I priced them and indeed its a diamond 1300$ on ebay....... so id never opt to use it just because if it ever blew id have to rework and im lazy. S15 t28BB is my next choice! Just stackin that cheddar!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:47 pm

I was looking at the pictures close and those welds look so AMAZING! What kind of set of was used to get that finish. Ive only used a harbor freight and we always burned thru trying to make nice big beads....... Of course we were using advanced auto exhuast piping junk. I wouldnt imagine ebay being to thick? OVER MY HEAD!!!!!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:41 pm

Haha a friend of mine did the welding, he has a TIG setup, he's also using argon to shield the weld so it doesn't splatter. The ebay steel is about 2mm thick, thick enough to weld to if you have the right welder/settings.

As far as welding cast iron, as long as you heat it up enough to get good penetration it's not a problem. It's a great option for people that want to go KA-T without attracting too much attention.

I haven't read all of Maximum Boost, but the chapters regarding turbo sizing and compressor maps really helped me get an idea of what size turbo I want to run. I'm ordering the turbo next week, I'll have some updates once everything gets here.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby WDRacing » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:35 am

If you need to weld Cast you should use muggy weld, google it if you're not familiar. Muggy Weld is awesome for DIY guys. You can even bond dissimilar metals, like alum to brass.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:26 pm

Ordered the turbo today, a few setbacks. Turns out Precision doesn't make the 5457 anymore so I had to order the 5431E. Still has the .48 exhaust housing, the billet 54mm compressor wheel, and a 57mm turbine wheel, it's just older technology and only comes with a 4 bolt exhaust housing instead of v-band. I went ahead and ordered a 4 bolt to v band adapter so I can keep my downpipe, it might still even bolt up. Either way everything to get it running has been ordered, expect an update in the next week or so.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby WDRacing » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:42 am

Nothing wrong with old tech...

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:47 pm

True, not like I'm going to be missing out on spool time with a relatively small exhaust housing.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:11 pm

Spool time even when BB and journal are concerned is very overated for shur. If i remember right its something like 3-7% differences! For drag application numbers like that wouldnt even matter because you dont really car about spool time because your on the gas the whole time. Now coming out of a turn "auto cross" or preping for a surge of power "drifting' i guess spool time may come into play.

There are ways around it ive been reading about rally and time attack teams creating an extreme rich condition when letting of the the throttle to create backfires decreasing spool time....... id imagine if variable valve timing is availible they could provide even more "stimulation".



Standing by for results!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby WDRacing » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:07 am

Hey Chris, ask your buddy if he can weld me up a replica of that manifold, accept keep the T2 flange. I may go with a 2870 and about 12-15 psi.

Side note, how difficult is it to swap out the subframe bushings if I use those 270* ones that slip around the bolts. I was thinking about knocking those dudes out when I installed some lowering springs. At least I think its the subframe bushes. Something clunks pretty loud out back when I unload the rear end at times depending on the conditions. Car has the same shocks/suspension it was built with back in 95...lol.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby SiDwAyZ240 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:11 am

I got a 95 too and just did my entire rear. I did my subframe bushings, diff bushings, suspension arms and painted everything included the subframe in a weekend. If I was you I would get the prothane bushings, their like the energy suspension but a few bucks cheaper. Now my rear doesn't sound like I have a basketball back there every time I shift. Just make sure when you do them you don't remove both sleeves from the subframe. On s13s you remove both on s14 you only remove the inner one.

http://www.prothanesuspensionparts.com/

ps. did some research on those inserts on collars and found that a lot of people began to hear the noise again after the bushings deteriorate more. The collars can only help if the bushings are not that bad, not if they are shot. Ended up not being that bad, except when I was putting it back together I put my RUCAS on backwards and bent my rear struts :slap:

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 am

How much was all the stuff from prothane ive also heard of using 300zx bushings from energy?


I threw some collars on my old s13 and it did help a little but they are def. not a FIX still very clunky especially with welded rear diff. maybe a hair less often of a clunk.

My buddies s13 had nice fresh oem rear subframe bushings and you couldnt even tell it was welded!!! (besides the little occasional chirp in a parking lot)


I came across a magazine ad from a driveshaft company with carbon fiber driveshafts saying the carbon fiber shaft puts ~30% less shock load on drivetrain and increases traction. I figure in theory it would flex more than steel and provide a "smoother" surge of power. What i was getting at was solid bushings wouldnt be such a good idea for drag. application maybe? I've read a little here and there on drag suspension set ups but its kinda all over the place. I just gathered that 240's arent gonna get good traction compared to solid rear axle cars in a stright line. Maybe a carbon fiber driveshaft and some fresh new prothane's back there would provide a superb traction solution.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:54 pm

WDRacing wrote:Hey Chris, ask your buddy if he can weld me up a replica of that manifold, accept keep the T2 flange. I may go with a 2870 and about 12-15 psi.
I'll check, I'm sure he won't have a problem doing it. I assume you want it clocked towards the engine for downpipe clearance like mine is? PM me with exactly what you want and I'll ask him.

lexcrob wrote:I came across a magazine ad from a driveshaft company with carbon fiber driveshafts saying the carbon fiber shaft puts ~30% less shock load on drivetrain and increases traction. I figure in theory it would flex more than steel and provide a "smoother" surge of power. What i was getting at was solid bushings wouldnt be such a good idea for drag. application maybe? I've read a little here and there on drag suspension set ups but its kinda all over the place. I just gathered that 240's arent gonna get good traction compared to solid rear axle cars in a stright line. Maybe a carbon fiber driveshaft and some fresh new prothane's back there would provide a superb traction solution.
The only place you want "give" in a drag setup is in the active suspension components, anyplace else is going to give you wheel hop which will mean less traction. I think you're over-thinking the driveshaft, at that point it's all about how you release the clutch for m/t and how high your stall is for a/t. I'm not very interested in drag racing so I haven't done any research, but when I took my car to the strip the only issue I had was wheel hop, and that was due to my shot subframe bushings.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:41 pm

I agree I just read it the other day thinking its probly just a sales pitch. Id say thats a great statement on their part id say they'll sell more driveshafts even if its not "proven". Maybe it would make it a little more forgiving on the launch for a m/t on skinny sidewalls. Of course i suck at launching so i need all the help I can get!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby WDRacing » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:10 am

The biggest issue I had to over come when learning to launch was the initial slip of the clutch off the line. This is especially stressful if you're racing with another person in the lane beside you, makes concentrating on the launch real hard...for me at least.

Anyway, the slip is what is most important. You have to avoid the initial shock load.

If you're drag racing and using a manual trans, you really should have some sort of launch control. I've driven cars with both, and the launch control rocks. I prefer the slushbox anyway. Give me an auto with a stall and color me happy all day.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby SiDwAyZ240 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:35 am

Oh man WD, you feelin OK. Not use to you sayin stuff like that. Automatic Transmission = :weak:

Couldn't find the Gay 1

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby lexcrob » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:27 pm

Yea i actually had a bee-r* but read so much hate about it i ditched it which i now believe was a bad move. Although it intermittenly would cause my car to stumble just out of no where at idle....... Guess ill have to wait till i get into fuel management on my new build. Nistune is looking better everyday watch couple you tubes they got posted up seems i misjudged its potential. First i gotta bugar with this vafc i picked up just to get the handle on it all my buddies want someone to tune their set ups. Well attempt to dial in their set ups i dont know if you could call it "tuning" more less F'n with stuff trying to trick it the ecm.

*OP you get that turbo strapped up yet?!?

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Turbo gets here today, it was shipped to my home address instead of my school address so I had to figure out where it was then coordinate having it shipped to me. Hopefully installation will go smoothly, I'll be running open downpipe for a few days but other than that everything should bolt up just like the Holset did. Pictures/video will come soon!

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby biggie » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 pm

You down in NC still? Need to hurry up, having a meet on March 31st in Raleigh.

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Re: Finally Going Top Mount t3!

Postby Chris28 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:37 am

Yeah I'm still down here, I'll definitely try to make it.

The car runs! I drove it around a little last night but apparently my neighbors didn't appreciate the open downpipe at 11:30 pm. It spools really fast, I start building boost around 2500 rpm. Not sure when I hit full boost, I don't want the wastegate to open until I have a dump tube on it. I also don't have my wideband hooked up yet since I'm open downpipe so I want to see what my AFR's are like before really getting on it. I think I'm going to head over to my welder's place tonight to get the downpipe and dump tube finished up, then I'll really be able to see how this turbo performs.


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