Emission test failure help

[qsiguy]

Went to get my '94 G50 tested this morning and it failed. Here's what the readings were.

Hydrocarbons (HC) in grams/mile *FAIL*my reading 2.20 / allowed .80

Carbon Monoxide (CO) in grams/mile *FAIL*my reading 76.77 / allowed 12.00

Oxides of nitrogen (NOX) in grams/mile *PASS*my reading 0.12 / allowed 2.00

What should I check for? I do have a stage 1 NICO ecu and this is the first test since it was installed. Could this be an issue? I do have the original ECU still, should I just put it back in and see if it makes a difference or should I check some other things first?

One thing I've noticed lately, I've been looking for a good vacuum source to check MAP and haven't found one yet. At the EGR valve I only get a small vacuum when giving it a little gas from idle. At idle, constant higher RPM, or increasing RPM if not from idle doesn't provide any vacuum at the EGR valve. Is this a problem. Seems like there should be more vacuum there. Also, I don't seem to have vacuum at the fuel canister. FSM says I should have vacuum above 2000 RPM but I don't seem to be getting anything.

Plates expire end of the month, any assistance would be appreciated. Also, I'm scheduled to get my car on the dyno tonight, should I try and reschedule until I get the problem resolved?

[elwesso]

You can check manifold pressure at the fitting right behind the TB that feeds the PCV system OR the brake booser port.

Was the car fully warmed up when doing this. you always want ot take the car out on the highway for a while and see if this helps.

If you have to wait in line let it idle high while waiting.

The bottom line is it seems you have a bunch of unburnt fuel, which could be caused by bad cats or the car not being warmed up fully.

[qsiguy]

It was plenty warmed up, had about a 30 min drive to get from my house to the emission place. Hope it's not the cats, that would be a bummer. Well, one good thing is that I was concidering going to one larger cat when I redo the exhaust for the turbo. I had decided to just keep the two stock cats and join the pipes after that but if I have to replace the cats anyway I'll get the larger cat and do it now.

You don't think the NICO ECU could have anything to do with it?

[elwesso]

Robert said itd still pass emissions.. You might just try putting the other ECU in though, I guess...

He said that the parts of the ECU that they use to test emissions arent changed much from stock, if any (IE the low-load portions).

[qsiguy]

Hmm, so it's a good bet my cat's are bad...

[elwesso]

o2 sensors woudl be another thing to look at... Hows your EGR.

I wouldnt assume the cats are bad just yet! Have o2 sensors ever been replaced?

[qsiguy]

Not since I've had it. I'll do some testing today.

What do you think about the dyno issue? I'm scheduled to get it done at 5pm tonight. Will that mess up my dyno numbers? It doesn't seem to be running poorly. Seems to have plenty of power. Only strange thing I've noticed lately is that I can smell fuel at times after running.

[lakeq45]

One tale that I have heard...have not done any research, but some here will probably be able to verify/kill the idea. Add a can of HEET fuel line antifreeze to the tank before you go. Supposedly the alcohol helps with test. Admittedly, even if this works, it doesn't fix the problem, might get you past the test so you can fix at your leisure tho.

The construction company I worked at for a while used this on their trucks, most were carb tho, so it may not work at all with a more modern system. Just a thought. The only truck they ever had fail was because there wasn't enough tailpipe left to run the test.

[maxnix]

Add a can of HEET

Never HEET! Always ISO-HEET!

[lakeq45]

opps...That's what I meant. HEET is for diesels right?

[qsiguy]

Well, did some diagnostics and here's what I've found so far.

EGR tests OK. Valve works and checked the ECU output and all is well. I do have vacuum at the EGR between about 1800 and 2800 RPM. Above or below EGR vacuum shuts off. Per FSM this is good.

O2 sensors check out. Checked voltage input at ECU for both sensors and both are ok. Ran through Diagnostic mode 2 and O2 sensors check out ok per FSM.

When I entered Diagnostic mode 2 I did get a code 34, knock sensors , so that would cause the rich condition right? I still have to do the testing for the knock circuit to determine if it's the sensors or the harness/connectors. Does anyone know the actual resistance that a working knock sensor should have from the output to ground? FSM says sensor is good if you have continuity and then says your meter must be able to measure more than 10 meg ohms but doesn't say what resistance is acceptable for the ECU. If the sensors are just bad I'd like to bypass them for this dyno run I have tonight or my results will suck.
Modified by qsiguy at 3:50 PM 4/23/2007

[qsiguy]

Alright, just checked them at the harness under the hood and the Left bank is at .557 meg ohms and the right bank is at about 24 meg ohms. Guessing if I put a 24 meg resistor in place of the left bank temporarily that should get my ECU out of the knock map?

Comments?

[qsiguy]

OK, got the dyno done. I tried bypassing the knock sensor I thought was bad but I still have the code and couldn't reset it before the dyno. Not sure if my patch worked or not. Anyone have a good knock sensor they can get a resistance reading on for me? Maybe the other one is the bad one.

Another question, if you fix the problem but the code hasn't been reset yet, will the ecu keep using the knock map?

I'll put these dyno #'s on another thread but the numbers are pretty dramatically different between the NICO ECU and the stock ECU. I had them both and did a few runs with the stock one. Obviously there is a problem with something and most likely it's the knock sensors.

NICO stage 1 ECUMax HP=222.2Max Tq=221.3

Stock ECUMax HP=151.2Max Tq=198.7

I took some video and when I get some time I'll transfer it to the computer and post it.

[burijon]

Both of my brand new knock sensors also test out at roughly .550 M ohms. I would say that the one you tested is good. I was using a Fluke 77 digital so the reading was always moving a little bit. I thought that the NICO ecu only worked with good knocks?

[qsiguy]

Cool, I suspected that when the resistors I bypassed the other one with didn't work. So I bypassed the wrong one. Dang, that would have really changed the outcome of my dyno.

Thanks!

[maxnix]

HEET is for diesels right?

Technically, no. But we know better than to use methanol.

[qsiguy]

Just went out to change the the resistors and they are both reading different. The one that was 25 meg is now around .5 meg and the one that was at .55 meg is now at around .9 meg. I need to get my consult fired up and reset the computer and see where I'm at. Also, I can look at the knock sensors.

[Q45tech]

Common for cracked housing knock sensors to vary in resistance reading at the smallest touch or vibration............that is why they require replacement..

[qsiguy]

I know, I just need to get past emissions and that's the only code I'm getting. They didn't fail it for the code just the CO and HC's being off.

I just found an old thread where you advised someone that you didn't think the knock sensors would cause an emission failure. Do you have any ideas what it might be? Do you think I have bad cats and if so is there any way to check them or just have to replace them?

If my knock sensors have been out for a while would that cause the cats to fail early? Strange that the knock code doesn't trigger the check engine light. Only way I knew was because I pulled the ECU and checked because I failed emissions.

[Q45tech]

WE see so few 94 that fail HC/CO after new O2, we might have changed 4 cats in 4 years out of hundreds of customers. The KS won't affect idle emissions they might change 2500 rpm test.

[qsiguy]

They had it on the "dyno" and ran it up at various rpm's and speeds for a while. Past experience tells me that when they take a while on the "dyno" it's probably gonna fail.

[goody90q45]

I know, I just need to get past emissions and that's the only code I'm getting. They didn't fail it for the code just the CO and HC's being off.

What kind of gas mileage are you getting? Has it changed (gone down) recently? Are you idling smooth? Accelerating without missing? It sounds like you have one bad knock sensor but that in itself is not going to cause you to fail a smog test. I've had a dead KS on my Q for almost 2 years and it's passed CA emissions twice.

The high CO and HC are indications of unburned fuel or running rich. Could be caused by any number of things. So far you've ruled out the EGR system as the culprit since you've verified vacuum and are not getting a CEL or a stored code.

It could very well be (as Wes suggested) bad O2 sensors and if you've never changed them you're overdue. I'm not sure why they wouldn't throw a code to the ECU though. If you get 1-2 mpg better fuel economy they'll pay for themselves in a few months.

Have you ohmed your injectors lately? Replaced any injectors? How about replacing the spark plugs? How did the old set look? Did any one or two look different than the others? I'm asking because I think that one or two marginal injectors, a leaky injector o-ring, or fouled plugs will not throw a code but will definately send unburnt fuel out the tailpipe.

It's a pain now but you'll find that when you do get her tuned to pass emissions your Q will run a lot better and get better mileage. Good Luck.

[qsiguy]

The car runs great, idles smooth, feels powerful (with NICO ECU), nothing that gave me an early indication of a problem.

Since it runs smooth I doubt it's the injectors but I'll check them out. It wouldn't be rich if the injector(s) were bad tho, would it? One thing it could definitely be is plugs tho I would think it woul run rough. I've never changed them since I got the car about 5 years ago. Also my valve covers are leaking pretty bad so the spark plug holes may be full of oil I guess I need to dig in and check that out. Maybe at least pull a few plugs and take a look.

I think I metioned it earlier but I do, at times, small raw fuel....

[maxnix]

I think I metioned it earlier but I do, at times, small raw fuel....

Now that is a red flag. And it would explain the richness and the emission failure. Is this from the exshaust, or just a manifold leak (that is you will only blow up)?

[qsiguy]

Havent' been able to figure out where it's coming from.

[qsiguy]

I doubled up on this thread in the Q45 section and tech posted this so I thought I'd move it over here.

MAF, O2, coolant temp sensor, cats are where to look. In that order.

Not warmed up enough, fast idle at 2,000 rpm until the very last second.

Were those readings from idle or how was 2500 rpm portion?

Don't you have to take it to a shop for repairs and then they must sign a document showing what components and cost they replaced to bring into conformance?

My MAF plug's been known to give me grief at times but it runs rough when that happens. O2's checked out. Coolant temp sensor didn't throw any codes but haven't checked it. If all else fails I guess I'll replace the cats. Just the rear cats I assume, correct? No need to replace the precats right?

Car was plenty warm, drove for 30+min. to get to the emission place. Idle is fine, no fast idle. Test was done at idle and then they ran it up on their "dyno" thoughout the RPM range speeding up and slowing down.

No, in AZ I've never had to bring in something from a mechanic. Since I usually do my own work, I think I had to sign the sheet, can't remember. It's been a few years. Actually, my wifes van just failed but it was just because I had just cleared a check engine light and the ECU wasn't ready yet so they wouldn't test it.

[qsiguy]

I just came across this old thread regarding the gas smell. I will be checking this out when I get a chance.

zerothread/203341

[qsiguy]

I got my consult working with both my '93 NICO ECU and my stock '94 ECU. Is there any data I can get for you guys to help me figure this emission issue out?

Here's a screenshot of ECUTalk. The O2 sensors were all over the place jumping up/down and I did increase the rpm to around 1500-1800 and I could feel it fluctuating a bit as the O2 readings jumped.



Sorry this is a little long, does anyone know how to read this log from ECUTalk?

Time, RPM, Throttle, Air Flow, AAC, O2 Sensor, Injector, Duty Cycle, O2 Sensor RH, Duty Cycle RH, Water Temp F, A/F Base, A/F Base SL, A/F Base RH, A/F Base SL RH12:13:26.616, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.09, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.007, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.157, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.307, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.09, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.477, 750, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.07, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.637, 750, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.07, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.788, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.06, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:27.958, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.05, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.118, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.07, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.278, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.11, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.439, 725, 0.52, 1.15, 10, 0.04, 2.09, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.609, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.09, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.769, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.06, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:28.939, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.07, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.110, 738, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.06, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.270, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.07, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.430, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.590, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.09, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.761, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:29.931, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.091, 700, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.1, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.251, 725, 0.52, 1.15, 10, 0.04, 2.12, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.421, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.12, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.582, 725, 0.52, 1.16, 10, 0.04, 2.11, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.742, 738, 0.54, 1.18, 10, 0.04, 2.12, 1, 0.02, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:30.902, 750, 0.56, 1.22, 26, 0.04, 2.29, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.082, 838, 0.56, 1.25, 26, 0.04, 2.29, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.243, 900, 0.56, 1.26, 28, 0.04, 2.28, 1, 0.03, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.413, 975, 0.56, 1.26, 28, 0.04, 2.15, 1, 0.06, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.573, 1050, 0.58, 1.27, 29, 0.04, 2.08, 1, 0.1, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.733, 1062, 0.58, 1.28, 29, 0.04, 2.02, 1, 0.09, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:31.904, 1062, 0.58, 1.3, 32, 0.05, 2.01, 1, 0.05, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.064, 1100, 0.58, 1.3, 32, 0.05, 1.99, 1, 0.04, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.234, 1100, 0.58, 1.3, 32, 0.05, 1.98, 1, 0.04, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.394, 1112, 0.58, 1.31, 32, 0.06, 1.99, 1, 0.04, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.565, 1125, 0.58, 1.31, 32, 0.09, 1.98, 1, 0.04, 0, 167, 113, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.725, 1125, 0.58, 1.33, 33, 0.25, 1.94, 1, 0.05, 0, 167, 118, 90, 109, 9012:13:32.895, 1150, 0.6, 1.35, 35, 0.49, 1.99, 1, 0.06, 0, 167, 118, 90, 109, 9012:13:33.055, 1162, 0.6, 1.37, 36, 0.59, 2.02, 1, 0.2, 0, 167, 118, 90, 109, 9012:13:33.226, 1212, 0.6, 1.39, 36, 0.57, 2.03, 2, 0.62, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:33.396, 1238, 0.6, 1.38, 36, 0.54, 2.03, 2, 0.73, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:33.556, 1262, 0.6, 1.4, 36, 0.4, 2.02, 2, 0.75, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:33.716, 1275, 0.6, 1.39, 37, 0.31, 1.99, 2, 0.68, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:33.876, 1288, 0.6, 1.42, 40, 0.22, 1.98, 2, 0.56, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:34.057, 1312, 0.62, 1.42, 40, 0.17, 1.97, 2, 0.27, 0, 167, 118, 90, 114, 9012:13:34.217, 1338, 0.62, 1.43, 40, 0.12, 2.04, 2, 0.16, 0, 167, 117, 90, 114, 9012:13:34.377, 1338, 0.62, 1.44, 40, 0.1, 2.03, 2, 0.09, 0, 167, 117, 90, 115, 9012:13:34.537, 1388, 0.64, 1.48, 41, 0.09, 2.15, 2, 0.07, 0, 167, 117, 90, 115, 9012:13:34.708, 1438, 0.64, 1.5, 42, 0.09, 2.17, 2, 0.06, 0, 167, 117, 90, 115, 9012:13:34.868, 1488, 0.64, 1.51, 45, 0.09, 2.16, 2, 0.06, 0, 167, 117, 90, 115, 9012:13:35.038, 1500, 0.64, 1.54, 46, 0.18, 2.2, 2, 0.44, 0, 167, 117, 90, 114, 9012:13:35.198, 1550, 0.64, 1.53, 46, 0.37, 2.09, 2, 0.69, 0, 167, 116, 90, 114, 9012:13:35.369, 1550, 0.64, 1.54, 46, 0.6, 2.06, 2, 0.73, 0, 167, 116, 90, 114, 9012:13:35.529, 1550, 0.64, 1.54, 46, 0.62, 2.04, 2, 0.52, 0, 167, 116, 90, 114, 9012:13:35.689, 1550, 0.64, 1.54, 46, 0.51, 2.03, 2, 0.13, 0, 167, 116, 90, 114, 9112:13:35.859, 1562, 0.66, 1.54, 46, 0.29, 2.05, 2, 0.09, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.020, 1562, 0.68, 1.58, 46, 0.16, 2.18, 2, 0.38, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.190, 1612, 0.68, 1.59, 46, 0.12, 2.23, 2, 0.72, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.360, 1638, 0.68, 1.6, 47, 0.14, 2.25, 3, 0.78, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.520, 1650, 0.68, 1.59, 46, 0.45, 2.16, 2, 0.74, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.680, 1688, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.71, 2.14, 3, 0.67, 0, 167, 116, 91, 114, 9112:13:36.851, 1688, 0.68, 1.59, 46, 0.73, 2.1, 2, 0.32, 0, 167, 116, 91, 112, 9212:13:37.011, 1712, 0.68, 1.6, 47, 0.73, 2.06, 2, 0.17, 0, 167, 116, 91, 112, 9212:13:37.181, 1738, 0.68, 1.61, 46, 0.73, 2.05, 2, 0.2, 0, 167, 116, 91, 112, 9212:13:37.341, 1738, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.71, 2.04, 2, 0.75, 0, 167, 116, 91, 111, 9212:13:37.512, 1712, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.66, 2.02, 2, 0.8, 0, 167, 116, 91, 111, 9212:13:37.672, 1700, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.58, 2.01, 2, 0.71, 0, 167, 116, 91, 111, 9212:13:37.832, 1700, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.39, 2.02, 2, 0.35, 0, 167, 116, 93, 110, 9312:13:37.992, 1688, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.21, 2.09, 2, 0.14, 0, 167, 113, 93, 110, 9312:13:38.173, 1738, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.14, 2.11, 3, 0.1, 0, 167, 113, 93, 110, 9312:13:38.333, 1738, 0.68, 1.61, 46, 0.14, 2.11, 3, 0.3, 0, 167, 113, 93, 110, 9312:13:38.503, 1750, 0.68, 1.6, 46, 0.29, 2.11, 3, 0.76, 0, 167, 113, 93, 109, 9312:13:38.653, 1738, 0.68, 1.61, 46, 0.59, 2.03, 2, 0.82, 0, 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[Q45tech]

Injector msecs are too high too much fuel shows up also in adaptive learn [o2 sensors?] MAF ok coolant is not 176F [167F thermostat?].

Ignition timing not shown on print out is it 15 degrees, dials show 45+ degrees? CAS adjustment?

[qsiguy]

I don't think it was up to operating temp, was sittin in garage at midnight trying out the consult.

The timing thing I think is a bug, most of the time shows "50" for some reason and most people have said that's what they get.

What conditions should I get a log in? Up to operating temp, idling or go for a drive and record for a minute?

Oh, and which gauges should I have running? If I can eliminate some that aren't needed it'll be easier to read. What is "AAC"?