E85 Conversion and Tuning Thread

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Swedish Mike
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Chezedik wrote:Yes, Ethanol and Methanol both have 76K per lbs. But you actually make more power with methanol injection because detonation causes a severe spike and subsequent drop in combustion chamber pressures (spike before piston is on downstroke, and low press during downstroke) causing a huge power loss. While Methanol may not have the BTU output, it will prevent ping due to it's relatively high specific heat, and high octane. So by preventing knock, you may lose a little power to the Meth, but you are saving a ton due to knock.

I think the jury is still out that you can inject a more and get the same power (meaning to reach a stoich ratio). From what I am finding, there is a very slight power loss, which as everyone pointed out can be offset by more aggressive tuning measures. So it seems the principle drawbacks are lack of availability, and price per mile.

So I have said it a dozen times already, when it becomes available and cheaper than gasoline I will use it.

BTW, it's not about high boost for me, but higher compression and relatively high boost, FTW. <= Better Thermal Efficiency
Totally understand your price thought but I use E85 as race fuel in first hand, a lot cheaper than VSP fuel and we dyno the same numbers as race fuel.The big hp cars here ran VSP on the streets before and now E85 to a 10:th of the price per gallon (over here).

You only need to run really rich at boost and still possible to tune it cheap for daily driving. Some piggy back or standalone users got a gas program as back up for daily driving but not that common.

Another thing we noticed is the EGT, a lot lower and this will save both turbo, O2 sensor and manifold.

And last, feels good to help our tree´s live a few years longer. We need to start using other types of fuel soon and why not start slow now?Probably stupid to discuss nature with US guys but yeah..


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Chezedik
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Last one off topic, I promise! I interview for a job on the 3rd or 4th, but I leave the same day, depending on how that works out and what other offers I end up with AZ might have a new KA-T.

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Chezedik
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Swedish Mike wrote:
Probably stupid to discuss nature with US guys but yeah..
I don't want to hear about nature unless I am mining it, cutting it down, or pouring things in it!

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WDRacing
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HAhahahahahahaahahhahahaha

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Craving4Boost
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what are the downfalls of using toluene? also, with e85, how will this affect smog? better? worse? I live in CA and it's very easy to find someone to skip the visual. However, I can't say the same for every other process. Also, I heard toluene makes your exhaust stink like

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Swedish Mike
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Craving4Boost wrote:what are the downfalls of using toluene? also, with e85, how will this affect smog? better? worse? I live in CA and it's very easy to find someone to skip the visual. However, I can't say the same for every other process. Also, I heard toluene makes your exhaust stink like
Toluene is a great help for getting Cancer.

E85 will make your smog guys happy, very happy.

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WDRacing
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You mean aside from being $10 a gallon, toluene is THE best fuel to run in a car to make big numbers, aside from say, Nitromethane.

WD

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Swedish Mike
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Come on E85 maniacs, buy my KA! Please?

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C-Kwik
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Brian, funny you mention the nitromethane as I was just about to use it as an example. Ethonol is a viable option, but inthe bigger picture of mainstream autos, fuel economy is also weight. Requiring more fuel per energy output unit requires a consumer to either fill up moreoften or have bigger tanks. It's a bit of an inconvenince for many to fill up more often. Since the turbo S14 to the G35, to the Maxima and now the Titan, I get about 200 miles before I'm refilling again. I was getting closer to 300 before I went to much higher power and heavier cars. Larger tanks would reduce this issue, but add an issue of slightly less gas mileage (from a manufaturer's viewpoint, this small effect is very important), but also viability. Cars are packaged so efficiently nowadays, that finding/making room for a bigger tank is going to cause some level of compromise. The higher compressiont and advanced timing will help maximize the fuel's potential, but I doubt it's enough.

AS far as nitromthane as my example here, Top Fuel cars last I heard burn some 25 gallons of Nitormethane on each run. While this is an extreme case, the lower A/F requirement of nitromethane requires a lot of air as well. As you know, to make more power, or even comparable levels of power to gasoline, you need to pump more air through the motor. This lends these altrernative fuels better suited to forced induction motors and/or larger motors. Larger motors, would probably not be a great idea as the increased reciprocating and rotating mass would appear to work against itself and it's quest for better fuel economy. Leaving forced iduction as the better choice. Ethanol is cleaner is it not? If so, this may be an opening for turbos to make it back into the mainstream of automotive production. Perhaps less of the issues we have had with gasoline. From a racing perspective, ethonal appears it may have some advantages, but for passenger cars, getting less than 300 mile+ cruise range on long trips might be hard for many to swallow.

But this leads me to my next question. I know ethanol production is still in it's infancy compared to gasoline, but how viable is it to produce on the scale needed to fuel the US? I have heard of new technology to better use the corn stalk as well as the corn to produce ethanol, but how much of our land will have to be dedicated to corn to make this work on such a large scale? Is it even possible?

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Honestly, I could care less about gas mileage. I have a old 88 K5 Blazer that gets 10MPG when I drive it.

With all of the advancements in tech we have, fuel economy has the potential to be a non issue with any fuel. You guys should really look into this direct injection. We've only started to touch the surface on this. DI is expensive to do because of the cost of the injectors alone.

If we had a KA and it were running under DI with whatever fuel, we would be running AFR's in the mid 20's. The injector fires directly into the combustion chamber. This allows for way more precise fuel curves and very lean mixture.

So if mixed, Ethonal would be a great combo with DI. Huge leaps in ignition could be made, emmissions would go down and power would go up. Honestly I see it as a win win.

But thats years away. Until then I'll settle for tons of boost and 105 octane. I'm definitly not retarding my timing at all, even under 20PSI. Worst case, since 20psi will be a race only boost setting, I'll use water injection...

WD

S13FX
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HEY GUESS WHAT MY MSD PUMP IS HERE WOOO WOOO.

I will have the whole car running today, and I will have E85 running by next weekend and, whats best there is BP gas station lik 2 miles from my house and they have E85 AND Race fuel. Whats even better the E85 is a Buck 45. I already have a tune ready with stock timing, 550cc injectors, and a Z32 MAF. The Safc is allready to go. And my chips are burned. All im going to do is attach my knock sensor to my lower intake Manifold, Hook up the knock light and tune away. Guys I am so excited I could **** my car in the downpipe right now LOL.

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WDRacing
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If you do I want video...

S13FX
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You know it and then we will make a Video of the SOHC beating you DOHC, but it only goes for your DOHC not anybody elses lol

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Chezedik
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$1.45?!?!? Really?!?! Well, at that price, it blows away my economy arguement.

Well Done.

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Even at a 50% increase in stoich it blows away your argument...I need to see what it costs in Tucson.

WD

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crzycav86
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I've always known it was cheaper than gas, it just isn't as high in demand, so the stations that offer it are very rare.

There are only a handful in houston, and all of them are a good 30 minute drive from my house.

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Chezedik
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I still stand by the fact that it costs more than that to produce, but that will change when interest in it grows and processes get better.

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C-Kwik
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I'm with you on the gas mileage bit. But in consideration of this becoming a mainstream fuel, there has to be value in it from the manufacturer's and consumer's in general. I was just bringing more of a big picture viewpoint into this part of the discussion...

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Spike240SX
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Well after doing tons of research on E85 Fuel and compatibility ive decided to convert my 240sx to run on E85. Luckily living in Iowa gives me a great opportunity to do this. E85 is readily availible and is actually inexpensive. Plans for the 240sx include complete turbo build up mostly supplied from AMS and Greddy. Since its a full Street/Race build up E85 just makes sense. So ive made a list of what I need:

1: Alcohal approved fuel cell2: Alcohal approved External Fuel Pump3: Alcohal approved fuel lines and filter4:Greddy E-Manage ultimate5: AMS Gt32 Turbo6: AMS pro kit internals7: Complete upgrade in the valve train8: Bottom mount turbo mani9: All the othe various crap thats gonna cost big $$$10: Worlds Largest Bottle Of Asperin for all the headaches im gonna have11; Unlimited dyno time <---- gonna get pricey

Sounds simple <---- ha yeah right

well ill keep everyone posted on how it goes. car should be up and running by march hopefully.

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Spike240SX
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Well after doing tons of research on E85 Fuel and compatibility ive decided to convert my 240sx to run on E85. Luckily living in Iowa gives me a great opportunity to do this. E85 is readily availible and is actually inexpensive. Plans for the 240sx include complete turbo build up mostly supplied from AMS and Greddy. Since its a full Street/Race build up E85 just makes sense. So ive made a list of what I need:1: Alcohal approved fuel cell2: Alcohal approved External Fuel Pump3: Alcohal approved fuel lines and filter4:Greddy E-Manage ultimate5: AMS Gt32 Turbo6: AMS pro kit internals7: Complete upgrade in the valve train8: Bottom mount turbo mani9: All the othe various crap thats gonna cost big $$$10: Worlds Largest Bottle Of Asperin for all the headaches im gonna have11; Unlimited dyno time <---- gonna get pricey

Sounds simple <---- ha yeah right

well ill keep everyone posted on how it goes. car should be up and running by march hopefully.

S13FX
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yeah if my stupid ECU didnt crap out on me Id be pretty much done with my E85 conversion heh. Now I have to wait for the new ecu and eprom burner to come in.

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Swedish Mike
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I normally use the stock steel fuel lines in E85 cars but if I need bigger I use plastic hose. Legris got a polyurethane hose for alcohol, gas and diesel.Really nice and pretty cheap to buy, 8 mm (inside) will handle at least 600 hp and easy to fit.

Most fuel cells will take E85, it wont dry out the plastic like methanol do.

I´ve use both Walbro and Bosch pumps to E85, no problemo. Bosch got a great external pump called -044, you might need two!

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Spike240SX
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love the input. it will always help. keep it coming

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Swedish Mike
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Spike240SX wrote:love the input. it will always help. keep it coming
Got one more, you can use a fuel filter from Volvo 940.They can flow well over 600 hp and got beefy connectors with threads, with an adaptor you can screw it right on the fuel pump. p0rn...

You can wipe off the Volvo text with some paper and E85.

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Spike240SX
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so im assuming that you ave already gotten one to run on E85. oh and ill keep the volvo filter in mind

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Swedish Mike
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Spike240SX wrote:so im assuming that you ave already gotten one to run on E85. oh and ill keep the volvo filter in mind
Yeah, my last CA had E85 for lunch. Worked fine and impossible to get warm at winter, bigger cooling system and E85, bad combo.

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Spike240SX
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ya im gonna have to figure out what im gonna do with the heated fuel line crap. did you heat your lines at all?

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Swedish Mike
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Spike240SX wrote:ya im gonna have to figure out what im gonna do with the heated fuel line crap. did you heat your lines at all?
Nope, I used it at summer. Took it out a few times at winter but not in really cold weather.

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Spike240SX
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hmmm supose you wouldnt really needed heated fuel lines then. did you really have that many heating issues? like what though? not being able to reach opperating temp? too hot or too cold?

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Swedish Mike
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Spike240SX wrote:hmmm supose you wouldnt really needed heated fuel lines then. did you really have that many heating issues? like what though? not being able to reach opperating temp? too hot or too cold?
I had heat problems at hot track days before, when I switched to E85 I kept the bigger radiator system but the engine already ran colder, no need to go bigger system with E85.

About the heated fuel lines, this is a OEM thing, nothing for real men! Ïf you live in Iceland and need it, mount it later.


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