E85 Conversion and Tuning Thread

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Edub1
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WDRacing wrote:
Hey bro...I've defended you when it's come to bringing up various options that have gone against conventional thinking, don't be a hipocrit.

Honestly, I could give a crap about every other country on the entire planet. I'm an American...period dot. Am I prejudice...you bet your a$$ I am, I hate stupid. I think all stupid people should jump into a huge woodchipper and I'll throw the switch myself...hell you can send me the electric bill.

Give me a friggin break, DO NOT talk about BS like that in MY forum when we're talking about the cheapest race fuel to be offered in this country at the moment...thats just simple fact.
Man, did you read what I wrote? I said E85 is a good low cost race fuel. The other stuff speaks to the environmental / practical benefit of using E85 as an alternative fuel source. 99.9% of people who would consider using it would use it for these reasons, not for racing.

But even if you are a rotten SOB and don't care about causing mass starvation, an E85 only tune is still a dumb idea for a street driven car because there is a 100% chance you will strand yourself somewhere where it can't be found. Anyone who says different, I say "famous last words" and please post your story so I can have a good laugh. And if you get back to your car with a gas can and find all your sh1t stolen I'm going to laugh even harder.

Then I'm going to mail out your Darwin award.



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I'm a big fan of the SAFCII/MSD BTM combo man. Dual fuel maps and either timing retard or none at the flip of switch or turn of a dial.

E85 is a win win.

S13FX
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Im quoting Carl H from another thread on tuning and check this out.

Quote »map switching is easy, the moates.net 2timer module makes it a[/quote]So there you have it.

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PapaSmurf2k3
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Edub1 wrote:
But even if you are a rotten SOB and don't care about causing mass starvation, an E85 only tune is still a dumb idea for a street driven car because there is a 100% chance you will strand yourself somewhere where it can't be found. Anyone who says different, I say "famous last words" and please post your story so I can have a good laugh. And if you get back to your car with a gas can and find all your sh1t stolen I'm going to laugh even harder.

Then I'm going to mail out your Darwin award.
First of all, there are other things to eat besides corn, so let the mexicans do what they want. Second of all, saying one day you will get stranded from lack of E85 is like saying one day you will get stranded if you don't have a cell phone. People got along fine for thousands of years without them, they still can today. A little planning goes a long way.

Besides, I would think that the way foreign relations are, you have a bigger chance of getting stranded if you own a gasoline ONLY vehicle. What happens when OPEC cuts us off cos we pissed them off? The E85 guys laugh. I give that a better chance then "getting stranded because you couldn't find E85". Most people don't drive their cars cross country every week, they stay around home, where they know they can get E85.

Anyone els with me here?

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GTR PrYdE
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So how many people have had success with e85 on their 240?What did you use to tune?

pr240sx
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Well, if you dont find E85...why not just add normal fuel and drive safely and lightly home

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eazye2000
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B R I L L I A N T !! !! !! !!


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Alright, at work today I saw a report on energy or something, noticed it was in english, and started flipping through it. Aparantly it was published in October, but hey, what can you do.

Anyway, it says that MIT designed a motor specifically for ethanol capabilites. Using direct ethanol injection, which was kept in a separate tank from the fuel, they overcame the "knock limit" or something, which is basically what has been preventing gasoline engines from developing in leaps and bounds. Using their direct injection method, they somehow acheived the equivalent of around 130 octane. They strapped on a turbo, boosted the **** out of it, and acheived power levels of a much much bigger motor. So they cut the size of the motor in half, and continued using the previous equation. What they got was a motor that was 20-30% more efficient than a modern day (so, brand new technology) gasoline engine with the same power output. Best of all, it would only add about $1000 to the price of a new vehicle, opposed to the $3000-$5000 of a hybrid. It also reduces the weight of the vehicle because the motor is essentially half the size.

It also had a bunch of other stuff about ethanol in different articles too. I'll see if I can snap some pics of it (I copied it at work and took it home with me muaahaha).

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In a nut shell they are doing EXACTLY the same thing you and I can do, but with direct injection. It's simply alcohol injection but using a direct injector per cylinder. With direct injection you can lean out a pump gas air fuel mixture to around 18:1 because of the cooling effect that the fuel has when directed into the combustion chamber instead of the intake runner. By using ethanol, they are simply doing an even better job of increasing the effective Motor Octane Rating.

Ethanol is simply alcohol with a little gasoline in it.

If you were to take your KA and add one ethanol injector to each runner, you'd be able to 12:1 compression pistons AND boost. Or just a ton of boost.

Knock and detonation are THE only thing keeping any motor from making huge numbers, aside from internal fatigue that is. So raise the octane and you effectively enable the increase in boost and or compression.

WD

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Correct, and with the increase of compression you also increase efficiency. From what I read they are going for the "efficiency" route of things rather than the "big power" route of things. Aparantly there is more money in the efficiency market, that and lots of people are already doing the big power thing.

Another article spoke about the whole "is ethanol really better than petroleum" debate. The conclusion was, that they are about the same if you don't take into effect the byproducts of the production process. Aparantly when ethanol is produced from corn cernals, it creates a byproduct of incredibly high protein cattle feed type stuff, so if you sell that, ehtanol does in fact come out ahead of the game (considering for that ammount of cattle feed, they didn't produce the same ammount of normal cattle feed). Really interesting article. I didn't read the whole thing so I could have something to read on the plane ride home on Friday.

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Direct injection alone is FAR superior then port injection. The bad thing is we've been able to do this for 40 years...We just never did because the money is in oil.

Crank the static compression and run direct injected Ethanol and you'll have a very efficient, yet very sporty, commuter car.

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Anymore updates? News articles, projects, etc?

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My car is one of the ones that elks was talkin about. I have been running full e-85 for almost a year and a half. The car is currently puttin out 410hp@ 18 psi. I am running a completely stock longblock, single walbro 255hp (that maxes out if i try to run more boost) 1000cc inj, fp 60-1, dsm ecu/harness/coil pack/cas/ignition transistor. My peak timing is 25*. Tuning is done with gm 3" maf and a maf-translater and a dsm eprom ecu. Best 1/4 time last year was a 11.59@120. My fuel pump wiring crapped out on me about 3 months ago due to my error in wiring it up. The car was hittin 15.8 a/f under full boost and the only reason I think my motor survived was because of the e-85. I recorded 0 knock at that a/f. So regardless what anyone says e-85 is the BEST fuel in my opinion. Since I rewired the pump I have had 0 problems. The car has been daily drivin from day 1.

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Just a quick comment, i've been running E85 on my CA18DET (yes, I know this is the KA forum) for almost a month now. My CA has VERY high compression. (approx 10:1). I'm running a very small CA T25 (smaller than the SR T25) and I was able to increase my total timing at 15psi from about 5-7° to 15-17°. I've now cleared 200RWHP with that turbo, which AFAIK, that's never been done before with that turbo on a CA.

As for it not starting below 60°F, that's not true either. It's been averaging in the mid to upper teens here recently and even been down in the single digits. The car is admittedly rough to start, but by no means impossible. I've never had to turn it over more than twice.

I'm very happy with E85 and have no intention of going back to petroleum.

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WDRacing
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Sweet, I didn't know you were even doing this Float. Got a link to a writeup?

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GTR PrYdE
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Sounds great. Do you know if your E85 stations are using "winter blend"? It's supposedly E70 for easier starting.

Kroger is really the only company that sells E85 in TX, but they still aren't close enough to home!!

A guy on this forum or another made a quick write up on using E85 if there are no stations near by.

He simply bought 55 gallon drums(I think 3) from a plastics recycling place for like 5 bucks each! Then every 3 months or so, rent a small trailer from UHAUL and tow it back home(about a 2 hour drive). Then he bought an inexpensive hand pump to use. Sounds like a little trouble, but I think it's well worth the hassle rather than using race gas...

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WDRacing wrote:Sweet, I didn't know you were even doing this Float. Got a link to a writeup?
Not much to writeup. I'm running an SDS, so I simply drained the tank, put in the E85, drove to the dyno and tuned it. I'm still working on the street map, and I need to disable the closed loop as it makes it keep the afr around 9:1 at cruising speeds. I think with the extra octane rating available, I can lean it out more at part throttle to improve my gas mileage and not loose much if any power.

I also think I can add some more timing back in. I tuned it the day I switched over and the way I tune ignition timing is to add advance until I sense knock or I quit making power. I started knocking, so I pulled out 2° and let it go. When I got out on the road it still knocked ever so slightly, so I just pulled the boost back. Well today I turned it back up and even with higher ambient temps it didn't knock. I think the ethanol has cleaned up my dirty combustion chambers and I'm not getting the hot spots I used to.
GTR PrYdE wrote:Sounds great. Do you know if your E85 stations are using "winter blend"? It's supposedly E70 for easier starting.

Kroger is really the only company that sells E85 in TX, but they still aren't close enough to home!!

A guy on this forum or another made a quick write up on using E85 if there are no stations near by.

He simply bought 55 gallon drums(I think 3) from a plastics recycling place for like 5 bucks each! Then every 3 months or so, rent a small trailer from UHAUL and tow it back home(about a 2 hour drive). Then he bought an inexpensive hand pump to use. Sounds like a little trouble, but I think it's well worth the hassle rather than using race gas...
Yes, they're using the winter blend, so we'll see if I need to change things in the spring, but I doubt it.

I've got plans to build a still that will consistently produce 198 proof alcohol. I also have a compound available through my work that will allow me to get it to full 200 proof. That will let me mix it with gasoline at that point if I so desire.

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GTR PrYdE
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With a little more eth in the summer, hopefully you'll have more to gain!

Either way you're making good power. What injector size are you running?

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Could someone please help me out. I have read a few e-85 tuning threads on various forums but am a little confused. First i have read that you have to run a special or external pump because a electric arc from a internal pump such as a walbro 255 could cause an explosion?

Second:When tuning with a gas calibrated wideband what afr would you tune for. I heard 9:1 at idle and 7:1 under boost but i have also hear 12:1 idle and 9:1 under boost. I want to figure out the equvilant to 14.7:1 gas for E85 and what 11:1 in gas would be for E85. This way i can write a tune to be on the safe side. A little bit on the rich side under boost.

Third:Around what hp level or boost level would i have to start to retard timing with e-85. I read it is good up to about 7-10psi.

Thanks

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How do you like the SDS? I helped a friend tune his on a 3 Rotor over in JDM Land. But it was tuned with a EGT and narrow band. No knock sensor, no real AFRs. It was pretty user friendly though, I have the LM1 which is compatible with the SDS so you can see the AFR's for every rpm etc.

When you're talking about tuning the timing, do you mean total timing and then retard with the MAF or MAP? Can the SDS retard .5 degree's per psi or is always a full degree?

Did you use the handy little fuel mixture knob thing? We had to because when we started to tune his car, he was running 100lb injectors and had no idea how much fuel to add for a base map. The enrichment knob totally helped with startup.

I know this is a tad off topic, but not many people use the SDS for some reason. What size injectors are you running?

WD

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GTR PrYdE wrote:Either way you're making good power. What injector size are you running?
NISMO 555cc Injectors
nelson8708 wrote:First i have read that you have to run a special or external pump because a electric arc from a internal pump such as a walbro 255 could cause an explosion?
I heard this as well, but I emailed multiple companies that sell or perform ethanol conversions and none of them have ever had problems with fires from the fuel pump. The most common problem with the conversion is that the ethanol cleans all of the crap out of the gas tank and can plug up the sock on the fuel pump and plug up the fuel filter. Both easily fixed.
nelson8708 wrote:Second:When tuning with a gas calibrated wideband what afr would you tune for. I heard 9:1 at idle and 7:1 under boost but i have also hear 12:1 idle and 9:1 under boost. I want to figure out the equvilant to 14.7:1 gas for E85 and what 11:1 in gas would be for E85. This way i can write a tune to be on the safe side. A little bit on the rich side under boost.
Stoich. for STRAIGHT Ethanol is 9:1 vs. 14.7:1 for gasoline. The e-85, especially the winter blend, tends to be leaner than this. As far as idle AFR's go, don't tune for a particular number. I tune my engines to run as lean at idle as they can tolerate and still idle well. Any extra fuel is a waste.

Under boost 7:1 is about right, but once again, you should be tuning on the dyno, and tune for whatever makes the best power. If you start tuning a car based on what it's SUPPOSED to be at, you'll be disappointed. The beauty of the E-85 is it's octane will let you run leaner AFR's w/o det. If the car makes better power and doesn't det. at what is supposed to lean, who cares?
nelson8708 wrote:Third:Around what hp level or boost level would i have to start to retard timing with e-85. I read it is good up to about 7-10psi.
I start with 1° retard per 1lb of boost. If I don't get any det. then I start to add timing back in until it does, then I pull out 2°. IMHO, timing is the hardest part of an engine to tune and is also the most important. You'll just have to play with it and see what makes power. Remember though that more advance isn't always better. If you add timing and it doesn't make power, then go back to the previous timing advance. Anything more just starts to wear the internals.
WDRacing wrote:How do you like the SDS? I helped a friend tune his on a 3 Rotor over in JDM Land. But it was tuned with a EGT and narrow band. No knock sensor, no real AFRs. It was pretty user friendly though, I have the LM1 which is compatible with the SDS so you can see the AFR's for every rpm etc.
I LOVE it. I'm tuning a haltech for a local shop right now and I hate it. It's awesome if you have a gazillion different things that you want to control, but IMHO, it's overkill for most street cars.
WDRacing wrote:When you're talking about tuning the timing, do you mean total timing and then retard with the MAF or MAP? Can the SDS retard .5 degree's per psi or is always a full degree?
The SDS has 3 settings that effect timing. Base timing as set per each RPM point, MAP timing that either adds or subtracts timing from the RPM point's timing, and then knock timing which subtracts timing under knock (obviously). For tuning purposes the knock timing is irrelivent as it's a safety measure, so that just leaves RPM and MAP. I have about 10° from 500-1000 RPM. Then it increase to about 32° at 2750-3000 RPM (I don't remember which off the top of my head) From there the MAP either adds timing in the vac ranges to help fuel economy, or retards timing in the boost ranges to prevent det.

Timing can only be adjusted in 1° increments.
WDRacing wrote:Did you use the handy little fuel mixture knob thing? We had to because when we started to tune his car, he was running 100lb injectors and had no idea how much fuel to add for a base map. The enrichment knob totally helped with startup.
That knob is awesome. It helps with startup and tuning. It makes it very easy to make fuel changes and see the effect on the dyno and then tune accordingly. Yet another reason the SDS is so easy to tune.
WDRacing wrote:What size injectors are you running?WD
NISMO 555cc CA18DET specific injectors.

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GTR PrYdE
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I hadn't ever heard of SDS until today, and I read a little bit about it. Seems like pretty sweet stuff. Now if only I could tune...

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http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.htmlTheir Tech section has A LOT of great, general tuning info.

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float_6969 wrote:
Stoich. for STRAIGHT Ethanol is 9:1 vs. 14.7:1 for gasoline. The e-85, especially the winter blend, tends to be leaner than this. As far as idle AFR's go, don't tune for a particular number. I tune my engines to run as lean at idle as they can tolerate and still idle well. Any extra fuel is a waste.

Under boost 7:1 is about right, but once again, you should be tuning on the dyno, and tune for whatever makes the best power. If you start tuning a car based on what it's SUPPOSED to be at, you'll be disappointed. The beauty of the E-85 is it's octane will let you run leaner AFR's w/o det. If the car makes better power and doesn't det. at what is supposed to lean, who cares?
ok for idle i just tune it to so it can hold a steady idle but what about cruising speed like interstate driving? Since straight ethanol is 9:1 should stoich for E85 be around 10:1?

If you run a lean afr but dont detonate dont you need to worry about the egt's? Possibly melt a piston or something of that matter or does ethanol burn cooler?

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When tuning with alcohol or an alcohol mix you can use Lambda instead of AFR's. That is if you're wideband reads lambda. Lambda is the same with all fuels..well almost all. What I mean is 0.8 Lambda is about 12.8:1 AFR when measuring pump gas. But 0.8 Lambda is also slightly richer then stoich for Methanol. Yet when reading the AFR for methanol at that Lambda you'll see 5.7:1.

Laymen terms, Lambda stays constant even when the AFR changes.

Here are the 3 most common ones, bare in mind this is tuning for power.

AFR at the motor / LambdaGas = 12.8 / Lambda = 0.87E85 = 7.9 / Lambda = 0.80Meth = 5.7 / Lambda = 0.88


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nelson8708 wrote:ok for idle i just tune it to so it can hold a steady idle but what about cruising speed like interstate driving? Since straight ethanol is 9:1 should stoich for E85 be around 10:1?

If you run a lean afr but dont detonate dont you need to worry about the egt's? Possibly melt a piston or something of that matter or does ethanol burn cooler?
I would try aiming for about 12-12.5:1 and see how that feels. If it feels like it's bogging down, then add more fuel in. Since you're only at light/partial load, you don't have to worry about excessive EGT's.

Also remember that peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry. Click HERE to read more.

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What would you prefer, meth injection, or E85(if it was near by)?

Both have very similar qualities, but E85 seems safer(no meth failure possibility).

Which makes more power?

They seem to cost about the same to set up.$400 for meth + tuning, $200-350 for bigger injectors + tuning.

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I would choose E85 because it's alot cheaper by the gallon.

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WDRacing wrote:I would choose E85 because it's alot cheaper by the gallon.
Plus I have 3 stations in town that carry it, and more are popping up in the cities around me.

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Last time I checked Meth was over $5 a gallon.


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