if they want to make a car that impresses me...

225 hp na 4cyl rwd 6-speed coupe/hb with a targa/t tops/sunroof optional or convertible light weight 22-2400lbs curb. LSD standard, with options ranging from bare bones no ac, no leather ect. for around 13000, and full loaded with every goodie for around 28000. at 28000 be able to have things like heated leather, and mabey a v-6 with a little better hp and mabey awd, with a autostick.

but by all means it must have a nifty azs HUD with all the guages old temo batt tach speedo eg AFM all of the guages u need. and programmable to have a boost gauge on windshieild.

why do you guys think they would lose money producing a rwd sports coupe? even if it did cost more to make (which it doesnt) people like us would pay the extra money for the rwd over the fwd. if they make a rwd coupe that costs a little more than other fwd cars in its class buyers like us will realize the advantage of rwd and buy it

id buy it if the hp was there to take its competition in the same class

but the thing is, only a select few would buy the RWD cars. most people like the way FWD cars handle. its an age where the middle class men and women, along with some upper class, grow up with FF cars. they dont know the true performance of a RWD cars unless they've used one before. hell, most of the people getting Zs are guys who know what the hell they are. then there is the large percentage of buyers getting them becuase they're trendy or cute, or they make the guy look good or daddy bought me one cause i like it. if any company came out with a RWD car, the only ones buying them other than kids looking to bastardize another import compact are the true enthusists who want a light RWD car with go hp and torque and great handling. but lets say they do. look at what car manufacturers are going for with cars these days. they're getting into that futuristic plastic, retro look. look at the crossfire. the thing has an interior like a video game. the steering wheel is huge and plastic, gah! we may get a good handling car but it will be nothing like the good ole RWD rexs, mr2s, 240s, and corollas. get ready for tons of traction control, tacky gauges and interiors, big bulky video game style steering wheels, funny *** manumatics, and gigantic wheels stock. if they did make a RWD car today, im not sure i'd want to buy it.

i think there is a LARGE select group that would buy cheap RWD cars. That is why we NEED drifting. The more publicity, the more people interested.

Only people who think they have no influence on production trends bend over and take what ever the market gives them, I vow to not be one of these people.

Saying only performance oriented people would buy isnt true. Most would agree here that the 240sx not only performs well, but its economical and practical as well.

I don't like the proliferation of it because of people. People are stupid. People will try to drift, they will wreck, they will kill me, my family, my friends. Simple as that. These things should be left to the professionals, not built for the masses. That's why we don't sell NASCAR vehicles to the public. You build more powerful RWD affordable cars, people will die. And you know whose fault it is? People.

true. i wish a car company would just hire me to design a car for them, just like homer did in that one simpson's. think of how much fun that would be to make a car completly the way you want it.

i still say they wont do as well as everyone says, but i hope they do make one.

trpower7 wrote:I don't like the proliferation of it because of people. People are stupid. People will try to drift, they will wreck, they will kill me, my family, my friends. Simple as that. These things should be left to the professionals, not built for the masses. That's why we don't sell NASCAR vehicles to the public. You build more powerful RWD affordable cars, people will die. And you know whose fault it is? People.

Do you want to know what the last car i saw trying to drift on a street was? A VW golf. Stupid people do stupid stuff regardless of the automobile they drive. a 2500 pound object heading in your direction isnt a good thing weather its RWD or FWD.

Just because one manufacturer starts making cheap RWD cars wouldnt change the national scene. The number one selling car would still be the ever boring toyota camery, steriotypical suburban people who want to feel big will still buy SUV's, people will continue to buy certain types of vehicles out of necessity.

I person buying a $19,000 NA 4 cylinder RWD car shouldn't scare you any more than that same person buying a $19,000 250hp turbo FWD car.

number one selling car is the Ford F-150

f150 is in the truck class im pretty sure

nope, overall its the number one selling vehicle. there are TONS of them out there. i see them all the time.

oh yeah i know, but the camery is still the number one selling car.

but thats all besides the main subject

many platforms are easily adapted for different drivetrains (porsche carrera, G35, a lot of trucks and SUV's) so it can't be terribley expensive

btw, it seems like everyone is forgetting this one little car people call the MX-5 Miata, it's affordable, can be had used for about 15 grand in great shape and loaded with goodies, or 22,000 or so base price, and it drifts and handles like no other

and theres the Mr2, i know its not waht it used to be, but still kinda affordable and RWD

the miata is a niche car, but it sells well enough to have been produce since the late 80's

J-Spec Tuner wrote:oh yeah i forgot, RWD cars have to have gold plated driveshafts and platinum U-joints. That must be why they are SOOOOOOO much more expensive to make.

Trust me, when putting a car together, It is MUCH easier and cost effiecent to drop everything at once. I'm not saying It's like 30k dollar price difference, but an extra say 1-2k per car times however many they make add's up. Many people don't understand that car company's don't make as much money as you think. It is a very risky job to be In. It's not really with fighting about because It won't happen

PS: Nice ride matt :ylsuper

I have not given an eduacated response to this great thread yet... doh tommorow maybe ill think about this during some of my not so fun classes.

The thing is, every general consumer can not be eduacated on every subject. Some people know books well, some people know how to buy cars, some people like home theater, in a sense there are audiophiles, makeupphiles, autophiles...

In the topic of cars, we have several things that influence the general ill-informed consumer to buy cars. A few of these are:Popularity (If everyone has one, I must get one)Brand Loyalty (My father has had a Chevy pickup for 20 years, those Malibus sure look intriguing)Peer pressure"eliteness" "Honda has the best reliablitiy in the world," "The Lexus...Looks (Those mini coopers sure look cute!)AdvertisementsMagazine reviews (Even an poorly written, poorly tested review can sway the opinion of an unsuspecting person)Past Experience (My last Explorer had a tire blowout and totalled the car, I should only go with imports now)

These things all effect the general consumers willingness to purchase said car. Manufacturer's will only add a RWD car to its lineup if it has a reason to do so. The general consumer has no idea what RWD is and how it effects car balance, performance and feel. Therefore mfg knows the consumer is uneduacted in this area and choses other options to spend money on. I could go on, and will later, but this has brought me to the same conclusion as Jspec and that is we need the Press to push the word "rear-wheel" and "drive" in the same sentence more often. This will cause people who have no ****ing idea what the are talking about to ramble on about how great said RWD is. MFG take notice and this feature appears in the car.

It has nothing to do with "Safety" and has more to do with what sells. If the drive wheel has little to do with the general consumers decision to by a car, the manufacturer takes the cheapest option and most popular option. More about this "popular" notion in paragraph below

Some things I have heard from some car enthusiasts (ricers in some respects) around my school is such things as RWD can only do burnouts, FWD can't, RWD can only drift. But this is pretty much all they think about it. They say that FWD handles better FWD is safer, FWD is more reliable, FWD is faster... From the more mature side I dont here much in this area. They choose their car based on looks, "performance," reputation, price... you know the economy concept.

BTW I had someone tell me that a turbo lowers the insurance on their WRX because it is "safer" They came to the conclusion that it is safer because it allows for better manuverability (wtf!!) I guess if you are going to get backended you can slam on the gas and avoid the collision ???

LOL, well Ill edit this post later It probaly needs it.

The miata is the number one selling sports car in the world according to the Guinness book of world records. The reason I won't buy it is its a convertible, and its a little bit too small. (widen the base buy 3-4 inches each way and it would be perfect.

I personally don't like the idea of ANY car company trying a to make a niche car specifically for drifting. Think about it, Toyota wasnt thinking "lets build a car with the most amazeing drift handeling possible" when they made the 86 hatch carolla, they just so happend to accadently make a really good drift car, the same with s13's or s14, or rx-7's they were all made to be enthuiast cars, but then again firebirds are enthuiast cars as well, car companies won't create a car that for specifically one thing beacuse they want a wide range of appeal, and becides, you can't force passenger car design to follow enthuiast trends, it's up to us to realize the potential that's already there

Tachyon, i still dont see how you get even $1000 out of that. Theres still a tranny, still half shafts and still a differential (integrated into the tranny, but its still there). The only extra component really is the driveshaft and some mounting hardware. If you can sqeeze a transmission into 1 cubic foot of space on a transverse motor, you can do the same for a RWD vehicle. The physical components are not as different as people think. Car manufacturers make plenty of money, that is what allows them to fund multi-million dollar reseach projects, produce crazy one-off vehicles to showcase to the public, fund racing teams that cost millions to run annualy and pay millions of dollars to advertise durring the superbowl.

Pat89XE wrote:I personally don't like the idea of ANY car company trying a to make a niche car specifically for drifting. Think about it, Toyota wasnt thinking "lets build a car with the most amazeing drift handeling possible" when they made the 86 hatch carolla, they just so happend to accadently make a really good drift car, the same with s13's or s14, or rx-7's they were all made to be enthuiast cars, but then again firebirds are enthuiast cars as well, car companies won't create a car that for specifically one thing beacuse they want a wide range of appeal, and becides, you can't force passenger car design to follow enthuiast trends, it's up to us to realize the potential that's already there

It wouldnt be a niche car, there is no such thing as a niche car. Just because Drifting gives them an excuse to move the drive wheels to the back doesnt mean thats all the car will do. Do all the people who buy EVO8's go out and "rally"? Most dont...

You could just move the transaxle to the back and change the position of the engine. Stick a driveshaft in between and your good to go!

front engine rear transaxle cars are weird :p

Although i guess that would make changing the clutch alot easier

TachyonS14 wrote:RWD cars cost a lot more to make. Car companies look at It from the money aspect, and they would have to sell enough RWD cars to make up for the time and money to plan new designs, and the extra cost of building them. I highly doubt honda/acura will because they like to pump as much as they can out of their engines to put more power to the wheels, which means FWD. I think It would be cool If car companies started doing It, but I really doubt It.

From an economic standpoint he's right. Cost dictates everything. It's cheaper to build ff cars. Consider Honda and VW. Both of these manufacturers make ff cars. To build fr cars they would have to make new tooling dies and plants, differentials, driveshafts, etc. and that's assuming that the cars will sell. competition is too fierce for an automaker to take blind risks. Honda has, however taken a step in the right direction with the s2000. But look how much it costs: $30-35k. VW's new beetle is ff but the old one was fr. Why? Costs. Most car makers switched over to ff cars in the late 70's/early 80's to lower costs.

J-Spec Tuner wrote:Tachyon, i still dont see how you get even $1000 out of that. Theres still a tranny, still half shafts and still a differential (integrated into the tranny, but its still there). The only extra component really is the driveshaft and some mounting hardware. If you can sqeeze a transmission into 1 cubic foot of space on a transverse motor, you can do the same for a RWD vehicle. The physical components are not as different as people think. Car manufacturers make plenty of money, that is what allows them to fund multi-million dollar reseach projects, produce crazy one-off vehicles to showcase to the public, fund racing teams that cost millions to run annualy and pay millions of dollars to advertise durring the superbowl.

Their pockets aren't as deep as you think. Those million dollar research projects are well thought out bets. If they flop it could put a serious dent in their piggy bank. No company can afford to sit on its laurels and expect to survive . These projects are calculated marketing risks.

Doriftomodachi wrote:From an economic standpoint he's right. Cost dictates everything. It's cheaper to build ff cars. Consider Honda and VW. Both of these manufacturers make ff cars. To build fr cars they would have to make new tooling dies and plants, differentials, driveshafts, etc. and that's assuming that the cars will sell. competition is too fierce for an automaker to take blind risks. Honda has, however taken a step in the right direction with the s2000. But look how much it costs: $30-35k. VW's new beetle is ff but the old one was fr. Why? Costs. Most car makers switched over to ff cars in the late 70's/early 80's to lower costs.

Actually the old RR beetle was incredibly cheap to manufacture, thats why the old style stayed in production for over 50 years until 2003 in mexico, and is the most selling car ever, with the ford model T coming in second.

MSRP for the S2000 is $32,000 and invoices at 29,000. It is slightly expensive because of the design: wringing 240 NA hp out of a 2.2(or 2.0) liter motor adds ALOT of cost, as well as the lack of a Honda RWD parts bin to source cheaper peices from.

Also bear in mind that we're already seeing a new RWD trend. The 350Z and more notably it's G35 cousin have been a huge hit, Infiniti dealers still can't keep G35's on the lot. The up-and-coming replacements for the Chrysler mid-size cars are going to RWD as well. Modern traction control devices are taking away a lot of the fear of RWD, people are waking up to the fact that RWD does handle better in most situations. Also, I think we're seeing people who have been driving FWD cars who are now driving SUV's and have gotten re-acquainted with RWD, when SUV's finally go out of style I think some of these people will want RWD cars.And though they might be more expensive to produce, they are less expensive to maintain. They lack troublesome FWD CV joints, their transmissions, clutches, and differentials are more easily accessible, and their engine bays tend to be less jam-packed.I think as manufacturer warranties get longer and more robust, these maintanence costs are becoming a bigger consideration towards a car maker's bottom line.Also, let's face it, the carmakers never really figured out how to effectively channel large amounts of power and torque through the front wheels. VQ35-powered Altimas and Maximas are notorious for torque steer. Carmakers have really improved their ability to create clean, efficient engines that still produce a lot of power, but their FWD drivetrains are in many cases inappropriate to these engines.I'm actually surprised that when they made the new Maxima they didn't stick it on the RWD G35 platform. The Maxima was RWD in the early-to-mid 80's. It might cross-compete with the G35, but it would at the same time differentiate the Maxima from the Altima.

But then the 350Z-to-Maxima comparison would be sour.

The 350Z is hot, whether you like the styling or not, it's still a winner. The G35, perhaps becoming an even bigger hit?

IMO, the Z will be the cheapest RWD Nissan you will be able to buy new.

They sell now. Why would Nissan undercut it's profit margins by selling comparable performance for less money? They won't.

The Z is still considered the flagship performance Nissan car for our market. I think they intend to keep it that way. We won't see anything cheaper than $30k for rwd performance. I've typed these exact words a couple times before, and I'm sure many of you have already done the same. This topic comes up from time to time, about affordable rwd performance cars. The Z is affordable, by today's market standards. Selling well, too.

PHIL:)

I understand, but see it like this:

The FWD 4 door sentra doesnt kill sales of the FWD 4 door maxima or the FWD 4 door altima. I dont see why a inexpensive RWD sport compact would ruin sales of a RWD sport car.

Im specifically talking about the sport compact car market, which is right now filled with the likes of the civic Si, mazdaspeed protege, sentra SE-R vspec, dodge SRT-4, ford SVT focus and others, all of which are aimed at affordable "performance" as well as providing practical transportation. My main beef is that all these cars are made with the notion that young people really dont know or care that it is FWD and that all we really want is a cheap car to put aluminum wings, a sound system and body kits on. Drifting might opens their eyes so that they see that a large portion of this market are interested in motorsports and taking their cars to the track and would prefer their cars to be RWD like all the more expesive cars they dont have the money to buy.

Of course this wouldnt happen instandly, but it could be easily phased in over the course of 5 years. This is why the quicker drifting becomes a national sport, the quicker this process will start.

If drifting actually becomes a national sport, it could easily get infested with mustangs and camaros, which are plentiful, RWD and dirt cheap like the 240sx and Corolla AE86. And the 6 cyl versions of those cars have sufficient power to break loose the rears. Heck there are tons of old cheap Caprices/LTD's floating around which could work too. You also could have a whole bunch of low end pickup trucks doing it too. I say be careful about wishing for Drifting to go mainstream, as the 240sx could easily get pushed to the background again.Food for thought.

thats a very good point. drifting will no longer be the cool, late night, sport it once was, but a mainstream over commercialized and abused sport. i mean, c'mon, DD1 was sponsored by APC!! what does APC make that drifters use???