Concerns about CVT Trans

Nissan Rogue forum - Includes Nissan Qashqai and Nissan Dualis as well.
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kerrton
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (cdmuile)

Postby kerrton » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:37 am

Really cool technology to own for sure, BUT the thing that confuses me is that repeatedly the real world mpg fuel efficiency numbers of the Rogue are equaled by the RAV4 4cyl, and are very close to being equaled by the big 230 hp RAV4 V6 engine. It seems that in the real world the CVT and all of its interesting technical aspects designed to increase efficiency, don't really amount to much of a savings over the RAV4, if any at all, and the CRV is right there within 1 mpg too. It is kind of frutstrating to me, I don't like to get beat by everybody's favorite the RAV4, especially when the Rogue is supposed to excel in fuel efficiency.


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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby EddNog » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:58 am

kerrton wrote:Really cool technology to own for sure, BUT the thing that confuses me is that repeatedly the real world mpg fuel efficiency numbers of the Rogue are equaled by the RAV4 4cyl, and are very close to being equaled by the big 230 hp RAV4 V6 engine. It seems that in the real world the CVT and all of its interesting technical aspects designed to increase efficiency, don't really amount to much of a savings over the RAV4, if any at all, and the CRV is right there within 1 mpg too. It is kind of frutstrating to me, I don't like to get beat by everybody's favorite the RAV4, especially when the Rogue is supposed to excel in fuel efficiency.
It really depends on who did the comparison. Most magazines test and drive aggressively or in a performance setting, where the Rogue's effectively shorter (with heavy throttle application) gearing makes the Rogue faster than the I4 RAV4 at the cost of only achieving equal fuel efficiency. As I said before, because of the nature of the CVT, if you're a leadfoot driver, you're going to use more fuel than even a conventional auto will. If a much more conservative test were run, say, by somebody like Consumer Reports, where both cars are driven just as slowly, the Rogue would certainly deliver superior efficiency.

Compare the 0-60 and quarter mile figures of the Rogue vs. any of its 4cyl competition--it blows their doors off. For it to do that and still deliver the same or slightly better fuel efficiency is a testament to the advantages of the Xtronic CVT. In fact, compare it even against cars in its class with V6 power; it's even faster than some of them! It definitely delivers better fuel returns than any of those!

-Ed

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EddNog)

Postby kerrton » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:02 am

Great response to my comments - you blew the doors off my argument, and I'm glad you did!!!! Agreed, The Rogue is awesome!!!

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby philipa_240sx » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:29 am

Gentle acceleration and staying below 115kph (70mph) makes a huge difference in fuel economy. I have been getting consistently higher mileage as a result. I credit the high overdrive ratio of the CVT. I now make a conscious effort to let the CVT go into higher overdrive ratios by easing off the gas early. I save the high rpm acceleration runs for highway merging... or when I want a bit of fun.

A good freind of mine has a Versa hatch with CVT. He also keep the revs low by easing off. He averages 7.5l/100km or 31.3mpg... not bad considering he drives mainly in the city.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby bllbrs » Sat May 17, 2008 6:05 am

I have the same issue with my new 07 Murano with less than 1,000 miles. It has decreased (or maybe I have gotten used to it) but I was hoping it was part of the CVT break-in period. It is always between 30 and 45 mpg under light driving pressure and you feel it most through the pedal, sometimes just pronunced enough that a passenger can also feel it.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (bllbrs)

Postby philipa_240sx » Sat May 17, 2008 8:09 am

The vibration at city speeds (20-30mph...ish) is well documented. This is completely normal. As noted before, the Rogue CVT operates in overdrive with the torque convertor locked much of the time to maximize fuel economy. The downside is some additional noise and vibration as the engine is turning very low rpms under moderate load.

I was speaking with the Service Manager at the local dealership, and many have commented how agressive acceleration decreases your fuel economy on many CVT equipped Nissan's. If you are light on the gas, you would be suprised how good the fuel economy is.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby roguetoad » Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:13 pm

FWIW this "vibration" nearly went away when we ditched the flimsy (6/32/ tread on new tires!) Continental 4x4 Contacts for Yoko Avids. If we try we can still detect it, but have to really try. Perhaps a harmonic coupling of some sort with the sort of chunky shoulders of the Contis. Anyway, much more pleasant now at low RPMs on smooth surfaces.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (roguetoad)

Postby ilinimud » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:24 pm

I found these statements on a review of the Rogue. A Nissan Spokesperson had this to say:

A Nissan spokesman, Brian Brockman, said the vibrations, and sometimes a booming noise, were associated with the way the torque converter lockup clutch, which works to increase an engine’s efficiency and fuel economy, is tuned. Some people are more sensitive to these than others, he said.

“Lucky me,” I thought — though my husband also found them annoying. Since fuel economy is important to buyers in this segment, Nissan thought customers would be happier with better fuel economy than they would be with eliminating a vibration that some people may not even detect, he said.

“It’s a condition we are aware of and keeping an eye on,” Mr. Brockman added. “But that was a decision that was made during the development process.”

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby Roguemonster » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:47 pm

The "vibration" you're feeling is perfectly normal. It's just the CVT and motor working at very low RPM's.

Frankly, I find it kind of soothing.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby Couz » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:12 pm

Hi all.

I just got my new Rogue three days ago and am not liking the vibrations I feel at about 1200 RPM and about 25-30 mph.

Its the CVT

Is this normal ??

Nissan tech guy says so and the Nissan sales guy said it too.

Will I get used to this?

I can't enjoy my new Rogue because this is bugging me.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Couz)

Postby kerrton » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:19 pm

Completely normal for this vehicle, just read the above posts, they discuss this exact issue in detail and give all the technical information to explain the vibration....

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby Couz » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:23 pm

kerrton wrote:Completely normal for this vehicle, just read the above posts, they discuss this exact issue in detail and give all the technical information to explain the vibration....
Thanks for the reply.

I can take the fact its normal...

What worries me most is if I can get used to it and not let it bug me.

I mean its really ruining my new car experience.

I hope I adapt because other than that I love it.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Couz)

Postby kerrton » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:34 pm

It bugged me at first but now I'm used to it, don't even notice it.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby Couz » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:41 pm

Yeah I'm assuming I'll get used to it...I'll have to anyways.

As long as I know its not a defect or hurting the car in any way I'll get used to it.

If I thought it was a defect I'd be sleeping in my car in front of the Nissan dealership to be the first one at the service counter tomorrow.

Glad I found this site and helpful people to re-assure me.

Thanks

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Couz)

Postby kerrton » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:10 am

Here's a positive story that illustrates how durable and reliable the CVT can be. Fifteen SanFrancisco City Ford Escape Hybrid cabs, which use the exact same CVT as the Rogue (manufactured by Jatco) have recently hit the 300,000 mile mark and are still going strong.

That is what I would consider harsh driving conditions, stop and go city driving, and 300,000 miles is incredible for city-only driving, and in only a matter of a few years. As a side note, they said the hybrid components including the batteries are still original and working great as well, far exceeding expectations - way to go Ford and JATCO/Nissan!! Here's the article if you're interested.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2...cisco/

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby Couz » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:45 am

Went to the dealership today.

Had a technician road test it and he said he may think the vibrations are a little excessive....but noted that as the car warmed up the vibrations became less.

He's gonna road test a couple of other new Rogues to see if he finds the vibrations there.

Any possibility that this issues improves over a break in period ? I only have 300 km on the car..its brand spankin new.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby duanekimball » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:00 am

I have the exact same problem. If I drive conservatively, then I get a shutter around the speeds you mention. A quick downshift and the problem goes away. It's really annoying for me, but I'm glad I have the paddle shifters.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby stephenpl » Thu May 28, 2009 7:32 am

I also purchased a Rogue 2 months ago and noticed the same vibration problem at 40 mph, have note gone to the dealer yet, I would think they would have a recall on this as it's an acceptable problem to have in a new car, and should be told to prospective clients at purchase time.Stephenpl
heidi wrote:I have had my new Rogue for about 3 weeks now and love it except for one thing. I have noticed a sort of vibration when I am between 20 and 40 mph. I took it back to the dealer to get this checked and they told me it was normal and that the CVT was just doing it's job. They told me if I put it in manual mode the vibrations should disappear. So, for the last week I have been monitoring the vibrations as to when they occur and I've found that if I put the CVT into manual mode during the vibration I can see that the gear is too high for the speed the car is going. For example, during one of these vibration periods at 30mph, when I put the car into manual mode, the car was in 6th gear, which, being a stick shift driver for 30 years, is too high a gear. The car should be in 3rd or 4th gear, not 6th. Once I down shift to a lower gear, the vibration goes away. If I just leave the car in automatic mode during the vibration, the vibration will go away once the car downshifts on its own or I increase the speed. Obviously speeds 40 and above don't have this problem. I will be taking my car to the dealer again next week to better understand how this transmission really works, but I am not happy with this vibration and it seems to me that the car can't be performing at it optimal level if it's vibrating, no matter what the dealer tells me. I didn't notice this when I test drove the Rogue. Has anyone else been experiencing this problem? Your responses would be greatly appreciated!

Modified by heidi at 11:48 AM 11/27/2007

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Couz)

Postby EPDinic » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:53 am

I fuly agree with you. I recently purchased a Rogue and had it in the dealers shop for 10 days,so far, because of the vibration.It has completly turned me off. I'm not doing to let up. I have heard that other Rogue owners have had trans changed and it reduced or eliminated the problem. I may be normal but I feel that some cars are worse that others and mine is a bad one. If Nissan know of this it should have been pointed out. I test drove my Rogue and just wanted to see how fast it was not how it would act at low RPM's. The wool was pulled over our eyes.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EPDinic)

Postby EPDinic » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:43 am

I just had the car in for the CVT recall. I must admit that there has been a 50% improvement in the ride. Has anyone else had the recall work completed?Ed

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EPDinic)

Postby kerrton » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:09 pm

Hey EP,

Glad to hear you've had some improvement in your driving experience.

There is a current thread devoted specifically to the CVT upgrade, here is the link.

zer...age=2

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EPDinic)

Postby heidi » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:11 am

I also took my Rogue in last week for the CVT recall and found there was an improvement in performance. I would periodically hit "dead spots" during exceleration.....car felt like it wasn't getting any power. I also experienced the vibrations at lower speeds. During the first few months of ownership I took my Rogue back to the dealer a few times to have them check the vibration but they kept telling me it was nothing and that it was normal for the CVT engine to perform like that. Apparently, many other people also had the same complaint, so I assume it finally let to this recall. At least the the warranty on the transmission was doubled. At least if anything goes wrong, it will be covered. It's just a shame that it took so long for the engineers to finally realize (or admit) something wasn't right.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby kerrton » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:40 am

I've stated this in the other thread, and I think it's important so....

The CVT reprogram was meant to "reduce a subtle rattling noise that may come from the transmission at low speeds", or presumably prevent this from occuring in the future. It does NOT mention anything about addressing the vibration you are talking about, in fact the vibration is a fuel-saving feature that Nissan purposely designed into the car.

That vibration occurs because of the high gearing of the CVT at "around town" speeds (40 - 60 km/hr). This programming was a result of Nissan choosing fuel efficiency over performance, HOWEVER, in my experience on this forum Rogue owners experience this effect in varying degrees, and I think it has to do with driving style and the learing function of the CVT. If you are a conservative driver, the CVT learns your habits and chooses more efficient gear ratios, creating a more pronounced vibration. If you're a lead foot, then your car will always be selecting a slightly lower gear ratio which renders the vibration non-existent.

This is supported by the fact that when you're experiencing the vibration, you can eliminate it at any given moment by simply pressing a little harder on the throttle, which prompts the CVT to slightly gear down, eliminating the lugging of the engine.

Your vibration may have disappeared simply due to the fact that your ECM and TCM memory was erased and you're starting from scratch, not necessarily because of the new programming. If you drive conservatively, the vibration may come back, which is what happened to my Rogue. I believe this is still normal operation for the CVT.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but just clarfiy that the re-program had nothing to do with the vibration you're referring to, and on my Rogue at least, the vibration is very much there and I accept it as normal.

Please report back after a few weeks of conservative driving, and let me know if your experience is the same as mine.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby kerrton » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:16 pm

There is a great resource online at JustAnswer.com (Nissan category) where you can access Nissan Master Technicians for answers to specific questions. They charge you like 9 bucks if you get an answer you're satisified with, and through a google search I discovered that someone had asked about the CVT vibration at "around town" speeds due to the high gearing of the CVT. The Tech's answer was really interesting, so I thought I'd share it:

"I would have the dealer loosen the sub frame and realign it , we had a rogue with a vibration this is what fixed the vibration, the front engine support was on a bind , I have also seen a few with bent exhaust hangers brackets, bent that can also cause this type of vibration, let me know if you have more questions, Thanks ROY!"

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I too have the vibration.........

Postby patdeeee » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:27 pm

Since I have the problem of vibration in a Maxima CVT transmission, I took the time to read all the posts on this subject to date. My My MY. What am I hearing?

Well for one thing, the fact that a given person has not felt it, does NOT mean others do not feel it. And the fact that it does not bother some is NO reason it does not bother others. And there is nothing wrong with a person who is bothered by something.

That skirts the issue. The problem IS real. Those of us that ARE bothered by it in most cases felt it from the beginning. The following are some facts:

1. You will NOT feel it if you take off quickly. Since MOST drivers do this, they are not going to feel it EVER! because it does not do it then. But if you are a conservative driver or find yourself in stop and go traffic MOST will feel it.

2. It is a subtle vibration that CAN be felt in the steering wheel, the gas pedal; AND in fact the enire car IS vibrating slightly. Some of course will not feel it. other don't care, but for those who do care and/or are bothered, it is not right.

3. It does NOT occur after 35-40 MPH. In most cases it does not happen until you have reached 17 to 20 MPH; and in almost all cases the vibration stops above 30MPH, IF, you accelerate slowly. Again, if you accelerate quickly you are not going to feel it.

4. While the CVT is causing the vibration, the vibration does NOT originate in the transmission. IE: the vibration is coming from the engine. And this is caused by the ratio of input/ouput speeds IN the transmission being TOOOO high at low speeds, UNLESS you give it more gas, which you should NOT have to!

5. I believe Nissan KNEW this when they designed the car. As one mechanic admitted to me, when he said yes when I said, "They are trying to milk as much gas mileage as they can and they are increasing the ratio quicker than it should be, to attain gas mileage better than the car is really designed to achieve.

It is here where the problem is. And it CAN be fixed, but it might not be easy to come by, albeit a slight reduction in gas mileage. Since it is quite complex how they change the ratio in this CVT transmission. And it might be that Nissan is hiding from it; as they are probably caught between a rock and a hard place.

In any case, it is for the birds and I for one hate the entire car because of it. It irritates me to no end. There is a NO cost/NO time fix, but one should NOT have to do it. And that of course is if you manually shift between those speeds. But who wants do do this on an automatice transmission?

Nissan SHOULD be run out on a rail for this lack of honesty and integrity. They KNOW it is happening. But they try to make everyone believe there is NOTHING wrong. But this is a lie. A bold faced lie.

Also, the dealers are just as guilty for not siding with the customer to force Nissan do to what is right for their customers. Incidently, I have just been handed a note that states there is now a programming fix for it by Nissan. I will call the dealer tomorrow. But I don't look for any miracles.

It is a sham, and they ought to round up the "powers to be" of Nissan and "shoot 'em like dogs" for this atrocity. Only kidding of course, but I am really upset about this.

pat


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Postby harryg » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:30 pm

^ great post couldn't agree more...this vibration is REALLY annoying and has caused me to accelerate faster than I wish...I don't like doing this because, accelerating quick when the engine is cold is bad for it...and using the paddle shifters is too annoying

ive asked my dealer and they too said it is normal...unfortunately I didn't notice it during the test drives..maybe because I was pushing it a little...if I had noticed I wouldn't have bought it..even though other than this vibration, the rogue is great

unfortunately the CVT reprogram recall does NOT fix this vibration as others, myself included, have had it done already and it doesnt help with the vibration one bit...it is intended to stop the rattle noise some owners have had

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Re: (harryg)

Postby philipa_240sx » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:10 am

I have to look back on this vibration issue and other complaints about noise etc...

Just a few short years ago, this would have been acceptable to a lot of people. It just goes to show you how far automotive technology has progressed and how much time is spent to reduce the noise and vibrations from cars. We now expect our cars to be totally isolated from the outside world.

Opinions may vary, but I do not feel Nissan intended to deceive anyone. They designed an engine and transmission to provide a balance of performance and good fuel economy. I'm sure they were well aware of low rpm vibrations and decided it was an acceptable trade-off.

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Re: (philipa_240sx)

Postby patdeeee » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:54 am

I mean NO disrespect to any poster on this forum. However I must disagree that Nissan did not purposely do this. To suggest otherwise would totally disregard what Toyota did and is now in deep trouble with the US government. Also other auto manufacturers have been guilty of deception from day one. And history has proven time and time again that auto manufacturers WILL push the limit until they are FORCED not to.

They hide behind many things and SO do the dealers. A customer is often in between the manufacturer and the dealer where BOTH play innocent to KNOWN problems they can't OR have no intentions of fixing.

Such is the case with this CVT transmission. The problem is simple. The belt is advancing to a higher ratio too quickly. And the REASON for this is to milk the maximum gas mileage, so as to remain competitive. It is that simple. And it should NEVER have been done.

The transmission is an excellent transmission. When manually "moving the belt" it is as smooth as can be, with NO vibration. Zilch, nada! NONE!

But in automatic at slow speeds when accelerating slowly, as ALL conservative drivers do, there IS a noticable vibration between the speeds of approx' 20~30 MPH. It is there. While I have not driven many of these cars, a number of them do have the dilemma. And for many owners of them, it is as annoying as hell. It IS an atrocity and I believe it was deliberate on the part of Nissan for the aforementioned reason.

I am so exasperated by this malady that I literally hate an otherwise mostly great automobile.

Aside from the above, there is another problem I have not seen mentioned. And that is when the heater ONLY is on and the air is directed to the floor, there is a constant annoying blast of air that emits from the upper dasboard area. Never owned a car with this noisy airflow when using heat. NOT even on my former 3 Nissan Maximas!!

Guess what? Same ole, same ole!

"That is normal" the dealer says. NO it is NOT normal. It is wrong! The ONLY time you need that blast of air is when you are DEFROSTING the windshield! and at NO other time.

I for one will not stand idly by and put up with inferior design and a step backwards to fulfill the old adage, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything all". That is BS and simply defies what Jesus said, when He called them, "Vipers and hypocrites".

Because THAT is what they are. I WILL echo that. A 40,000 dollar car that IMO is worthless as far as enjoyment. So sad.

Oh well.

may Jesus one day right ALL wrongs,

pat

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Re: (philipa_240sx)

Postby kerrton » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:19 am

patdeee,

I respect your opinion and thank you for posting it up for discussion. However I have to disagree with some of what you have said.

For starters, I am intimately familiar with the vibration you are talking about, and if you find some of my posts from almost 2 years ago you'll see that I wasn't too happy about it when I first discovered it. I'm a conservative driver but not when I test drive, so I didn't discover this until I got the car home. I was angry because I believed there was a problem with the vehicle, but since then I have discovered exactly what you stated in your post: this vibration is completely normal, it was designed on purpose as a fuel saving feature. Everything in life is a trade-off, based on the laws of physics - I wanted a fuel efficient mid-size vehicle so Nissan gave it to me.

I strongly disagree with your statement that Nissan decieved us - in what way were we decieved? You said it in your post - Nissan designed the car this way on purpose, and they had good reason for it. They designed a vehicle with excellent fuel efficiency that delievers in the real world, and it has proven to have above average reliability and quality by most assessments such as TrueDelta (real world), Edmonds, and JD Power and the CVT now has a 10 year warranty to back it up.

Don't get me wrong, I still don't care for the vibration but I wasn't lied to or tricked into buying this car.

For comparison, I bought a 1989 Ford pickup truck, and it had the absolutely worst 5-spd manual transmission I've ever driven, and the engine was incredibly loud. The tranny took a magician to shift smoothly, and forget about downshifting into 1st unless you were at a dead stop! Many service shops assessed it and said "everygthings good, these Ford's just shift hard, but they last forever!". But I accepted these negatives because the positives outweighed the negatives, I still tell people how much I loved that truck despite it's shortcomings!! The car came with these shortcomings, it had a list of pros and cons, and even though the truck wasn't perfect and had it's negative aspects, I didn't believe Ford had decieved me. Of course they knew the tranny was rough, and that's ok, they didn't force me to buy their product and they didn't try to be deceptive.

Nissan designed the CVT and programmed it for efficiency, and the trade-off is a bit of vibrarion. As long as reliability is strong then I can live with that because I've owned many vehicles and they all have their shortcomings.

Another example: If you owned the Europan version of the Rogue, you might apply North American standards and say the 2.0 engine is underpowered and downright dangerous for highway passing. Using your logic, you could say Nissan knew the 2.0 was underpowered and dangerous and decieved us by not informing us of the shortcoming. You could call it a conspiracy to decieve the buyer, but the Qashqai is one of the highest selling vehicles in Europe and those owners would say the 2.0 has lots of power because they're used to smaller engines than we are.

Every vehicle has shortcomings, you won't find one that's perfect, definately not in the price range of the Rogue anyway. I don't like the vibration but I like everything else about the car so I think we're way ahead of the game. I feel for you though, buying a vehicle and then realizing it was the wrong decision really sucks. I hope it works out for you, perhaps after you drive it for a while you won't notice anymore like most Rogue owners.

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Re: (patdeeee)

Postby kerrton » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:31 am

Hey Pat,

That's what this forum is about, we're not Nissan employees and we want honest opinions as long as we abide by the basic rules of conduct and remain respectful. You've done this so don't apologize for your opinion, maybe through discussion we can even come up with more ideas on how to address the issue.

Regarding your heater issue, I'm sure I don't have this problem and I don't remember reading about this issue, I'd be persistent and try to get the dealer to address it. Since this seems to be a new topic you may want to create a seperate topic for it and see if anyone else has had the issue, and if they've had it fixed.

You make some good points regarding the high gearing and resulting vibration. BUT, I strongly disagree with your comparision to the Toyota brake safety issue. A vibration or noise in a vehicle is not even close to a serious safety issue that can result in crashes, death or serious injury. We both agree that Nissan designed the CVT with this early, high gearing for around-town driving to increase fuel efficiency, and Nissan is VERY UP FRONT about this, it's in the press releases for the Rogue, and I've read it in at least one more article specifically about the CVT.

Nissan is very open about the CVT design and programming, there is no deception. That doesn't mean we have to like it, but I don't believe they've hidden anything from us. It has not produced any physically dangerous conditions that I know of, so I think this boils down to a prefernce thing. I had a Saturn Ion previously, and it's engine was so loud that I NEVER revved it about 2500 rpms or the noise and vibrations were unbearable. The engine was the opposite of smooth, incredible noise and vibration, and I cursed GM for the poor design, but I didn't feel they had wronged me in any way. As a consumer I applied free will in the purchase, and couldn't blame my poor decision on being tricked or decieved by the manufacturer. I didn't like it, so I sold it and bought a Rogue, that's consumerism. If there was a safety issue, or mechanical defect that's a different story.


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