Codes P0420 & P0430. V8 catalytic converter issues

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Finflaps
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My light lit up again today. Almost to a 1/4 tank. Will pop that cataclean in and see what happens. Like i said, i wont give it too long before I gix it, especially if the light doesnt go,out after the treatment,


EdBwoy
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Finflaps wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:31 pm
... I will not wait long to replace though, but at the price im looking at to repair I figure might as well see if i can get some time to prepare for That financial hit first lol. Any help i can give just lmk...
Agreed. And If a bottle of cataclean will buy you more time, why not!?

***
I think there is a way you could help.
My ask has been that I get a manifold that has been diagnosed with the catalyst codes. I reckon you will be paying out of pocket since you're out of the standard warranty period. If yes, then the dealer should not have any reason to keep your old unit.

When you get the job done, could you ask that they carefully remove this "bad" one and save it for you?

At that point, if you have no use for it yourself, please get in touch with me (EdBwoy at gmail dot com) and we can make arrangements for me to get it.

If the dealer/repair shop saves the box from the new catalyst, this old one can be packaged in the same way and make shipping easier. Otherwise, I'd just have FedEx/UPS pad and package it for you, at my cost of course.

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Ilya
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My light went off and back on this week again on its own. No matta, I got my inspection :P.

Curious if you can get the cat, what you find Ed.

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armybrat
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EdBwoy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:17 am

Agreed. And If a bottle of cataclean will buy you more time, why not!?

***
I think there is a way you could help.
My ask has been that I get a manifold that has been diagnosed with the catalyst codes. I reckon you will be paying out of pocket since you're out of the standard warranty period. If yes, then the dealer should not have any reason to keep your old unit.

When you get the job done, could you ask that they carefully remove this "bad" one and save it for you?

At that point, if you have no use for it yourself, please get in touch with me (EdBwoy at gmail dot com) and we can make arrangements for me to get it.

If the dealer/repair shop saves the box from the new catalyst, this old one can be packaged in the same way and make shipping easier. Otherwise, I'd just have FedEx/UPS pad and package it for you, at my cost of course.
There is that $200 core charge per cat. I believe that cost is figured into the job. The old cats are recycled by the dealer for the catalyst material. Given the high cost of replacement, it'll be hard to find someone who will give that up.

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armybrat wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm
EdBwoy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:17 am
... I reckon you will be paying out of pocket since you're out of the standard warranty period. If yes, then the dealer should not have any reason to keep your old unit.

...
There is that $200 core charge per cat. I believe that cost is figured into the job. The old cats are recycled by the dealer for the catalyst material. Given the high cost of replacement, it'll be hard to find someone who will give that up.
The dealerships around me have no problem giving me my old part back without having to pay anything extra. I am unaware of the $200 figure and where it came from, but the people I called would not charge me any extra if I took it home with me, neither would they give me a discount for leaving it behind.
I do know that selling the manifold to a recycler would yield between $20-$80, depending on location, integrity of the cat etc.

However, I'd like to say this to everyone - if you intend to help me with this research for the good of the community and the only thing holding you back is the $200, just let me know and I'll be glad to pay for that as well.

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armybrat
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EdBwoy wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:32 pm
armybrat wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:02 pm


There is that $200 core charge per cat. I believe that cost is figured into the job. The old cats are recycled by the dealer for the catalyst material. Given the high cost of replacement, it'll be hard to find someone who will give that up.
The dealerships around me have no problem giving me my old part back without having to pay anything extra. I am unaware of the $200 figure and where it came from, but the people I called would not charge me any extra if I took it home with me, neither would they give me a discount for leaving it behind.
I do know that selling the manifold to a recycler would yield between $20-$80, depending on location, integrity of the cat etc.

However, I'd like to say this to everyone - if you intend to help me with this research for the good of the community and the only thing holding you back is the $200, just let me know and I'll be glad to pay for that as well.
The core charge is there. Infiniti Parts USA is $190:
https://www.infinitipartsusa.com/Infini ... 1CX0A-.htm

The estore quotes $200; their website is down so I wasn't able to provide a link. If you buy the manifold online and put it in yourself or have a dealership install it, you'll need to send the old one back to get the core charge refunded, no different than buying a new battery and taking your old one back.

My post above was referring to the manifold being furnished and installed at a dealership. I wasn't talking about getting old parts back in general, nor having someone other than an authorized dealership perform the job. The manifold core charge is figured into the job. If you want it back, you will pay the core charge. I doubt they will just "give it to you"...not saying they won't, you never know.

You had mentioned earlier that you weren't willing to pay for a manifold, other than shipping. I applaud your change of heart, and hopefully someone will be willing to donate one for the cause. I've seen them on Ebay for $125 but they are still viable. I am guessing that you want one that has been diagnosed as defective. I am currently ok with using the Cataclean for right now, as the DTC only pops up from time to time, but if I decide to have mine replaced, I will see what it will take to get it and let you know. I would be willing to split the cost.

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I bought my new CATs from Infinitipartsonline and saved hundreds on what the dealer charges for new CATs. They returned my old CATs to me in the boxes I received the new ones in and I shipped them back. I received my core deposit about 3 weeks after shipping. I didn't need to ask them to return my old CATs. They automatically gave them to me as I was the one who paid for the new CATs directly. Hopefully other dealerships will do the same, though I doubt they actually have to.

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Larz wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:07 am
I bought my new CATs from Infinitipartsonline and saved hundreds on what the dealer charges for new CATs. They returned my old CATs to me in the boxes I received the new ones in and I shipped them back. I received my core deposit about 3 weeks after shipping. I didn't need to ask them to return my old CATs. They automatically gave them to me as I was the one who paid for the new CATs directly. Hopefully other dealerships will do the same, though I doubt they actually have to.
Yes sir this will probably be the route I will take if I decide to have it done. Since they have to jack the motor anyway, I may elect to have both of them replaced.

The dealer will give the cats back to you IF you furnished them to start with. If you take your car to the dealer and have the work done (they furnish, or have to order the cats, not you), I seriously doubt they'll give them to you. That core charge is factored in, and someone will pay it.

In my case, I believe running the ethanol free 93 gas had something to do with triggering the DTC. I switched back to BP 93, and it seems to be helping. The only benefit I gained from running the ethanol free gas was increased mileage, but it also burns less clean (oxygenated gas is a cleaner burning fuel, meant for modern exhaust systems with cats) According to my spreadsheet, the frequency of the CEL is getting more infrequent, close to 1000 miles between triggers. My DTC comes and goes, so I will run the old ones for now. Since the first CEL at 95k miles, I have used 5 bottles. I have a 6th in the garage, but I'm going to wait and see how long before the CEL come on again. I am close to 106k miles.

I spoke to my dealership Modern Infiniti here in Winston-Salem, NC. They just met with a vendor who offers a cleaning regimen that uses 3 different products simultaneously; one that goes in your fuel tank, one that goes in your intake, and one that you add to your engine oil. They run all three at the same time, for a given time period. They claim great success with cleaning carbon build up, etc. They are in the process of setting up a service using these products. They haven't worked out the details but I believe they're going to charge about $250 - $300. They may want a car for beta testing so I may volunteer to give it a try.

Finflaps
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I dont mind taking the hit for the greater good of the community. At the moment, my cel went off after the cataclean treatment. I will continue to monitor the situation, and post as needed. Hopefully as these cars age and become more obtainable to the masses, we see a spike in parts availability, and trying to figure out this issue will help in the longrun imo. How often are y'all treating with the cataclean? I am aware of what the bottle says, but am,wondering what it really takes.

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I reckon if the CAT is clogged with carbon, etc a cleaning regimen might work. But for the rest of us, with substrate damage and deterioration, there is no fix aside from chucking the old ones for new ones.

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Ilya
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My light is going off with much higher regularity now that we're in the middle of summer (it went off this morning and stay off all day). My guess is it will go back on in the fall and stay on 100% all winter. So, as long as it keeps doing this in the summer, I'll keep passing inspections lol.

Finflaps
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My light came back on yesterday. That didnt take long. I reset the ecu just to see how long it takes the light to come on again. I feel like it is too soon to put more cataclean in. If it comes back on i may just go ahead and order the cats.

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A few factors might be at play here:
  • The codes seem to show up less during the summer for most of us
  • The codes come and go on their own, even,when not messed with. Resetting the ECU or erasing the codes obviously makes them go away immediately, so using cataclean and at the same time erasing the codes could skew the results
  • The performance of cataclean has been called to question by various sources. If you want to do a verification test, next time instead of pouring cataclean into the tank, use chevron or seafoam or even nothing.
    Drive the car as usual & observe it. Does it behave any differently or does the check engine light come on at the usual intervals as if you were using cataclean? Well, there's your placebo test.
***

Armybrat, I called an Infiniti dealership and inquired specifically about the exhaust manifold work on an Infiniti M56x. It was not a general question to a random shop about random parts. Their answer was that I may take my old parts home.
Granted, their quote was $2,400 so if any core charges are to be involved I am sure they more than covered it along with the manager's boat payment.

I am not ready to go back and find where I said I was not willing to pay anything but it is indeed true that ideally, I'd love to receive these manifolds delivered at my doorstep at zero cost to me (as many people in my position would). After all, I'll be putting hours of research including facing the possibility of spending a few grand for analysis and redesign... all for the good of others.
However, let the record show that more than once I have declared that I will pay for shipping, professional packing services where needed, the core charge if the shop demands it, and even some gas money for your troubles.
Given the high cost of replacement, it'll be hard to find someone who will give that up.
I acknowledge that people are different and therefore others have a little more of a giving or sharing nature than others... especially when $200 is the decision to be made.
I however, don't particularly like this statement and if it doesn't discourage others, it does seem self-defeatist to constantly point out how impossible it is gonna be to get damaged items back from the dealership. The least someone could do is ask, right?

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Ilya
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For the sake of keeping tracking, I've driven my car probably 100 miles since the light last went off over the last 1.5 weeks or so and its still off.

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armybrat
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EdBwoy wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:52 am
***Armybrat, I called an Infiniti dealership and inquired specifically about the exhaust manifold work on an Infiniti M56x. It was not a general question to a random shop about random parts. Their answer was that I may take my old parts home.
Granted, their quote was $2,400 so if any core charges are to be involved I am sure they more than covered it along with the manager's boat payment.

I am not ready to go back and find where I said I was not willing to pay anything but it is indeed true that ideally, I'd love to receive these manifolds delivered at my doorstep at zero cost to me (as many people in my position would). After all, I'll be putting hours of research including facing the possibility of spending a few grand for analysis and redesign... all for the good of others.
However, let the record show that more than once I have declared that I will pay for shipping, professional packing services where needed, the core charge if the shop demands it, and even some gas money for your troubles.
Given the high cost of replacement, it'll be hard to find someone who will give that up.
I acknowledge that people are different and therefore others have a little more of a giving or sharing nature than others... especially when $200 is the decision to be made.
I however, don't particularly like this statement and if it doesn't discourage others, it does seem self-defeatist to constantly point out how impossible it is gonna be to get damaged items back from the dealership. The least someone could do is ask, right?
I guess a little clarification is due on my part - yes you may take your manifold home. I never said that you couldn't. My point is that you're not going to take it home for free. That $2400 quote is based on if they keep the manifold. If they quoted you $2400 AND told you that you could keep it, then the original price was $2200. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. I verified that with my dealer Modern Infiniti here in Winston-Salem this morning. I also spoke with my service advisor about my ongoing P0420 DTC, and had him run some numbers for me. If you think your quote is high, try $3590 for the AWD model replacement. (add $200 if I keep it). Try $4644 for both manifolds (add $400 if I keep both) He suggested that I try the emissions cleaning service first. This is the service that they recently added, the one I mentioned in my last post. It costs $235.18, and he said that if the light came back on, they would reimburse me for 1/2 the cost if I ended up having the manifold replaced. I will definitely shop online for the manifolds like Larz did, and have them perform the labor. Anyway, I dropped my car off, he had a 2019 QX80 loaner for me to run around in so I wouldn't have to wait around. (Holy cow what a tank LOL) Anyway, got my car back; seems to run better so we'll see what happens.

I want to let you know (from looking back at previous posts) it was the mufflers that you were looking for as a donation (you pay shipping), not the manifold. I sincerely apologize for the confusion on my part. I do appreciate your efforts to research the whole exhaust situation, and I didn't mean to stir anything up. My statement about you finding a manifold donor was premised on folks giving up the core charge(s) with no reimbursement, and I stand by that statement. However, with you offering to pay the costs, that's a whole different situation. Just my 2 cents.

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My light is back on. I did around 150 miles between it going off and going back on and when it came back on, I was driving next to a river/body of water where air temps are generally a few degrees cooler. I'd say they were in the mid 70's.

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armybrat
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Ilya wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:54 pm
My light is back on. I did around 150 miles between it going off and going back on and when it came back on, I was driving next to a river/body of water where air temps are generally a few degrees cooler. I'd say they were in the mid 70's.
If they offer the emissions cleaning service where you live, I would give that a try. As I posted above, the AWD manifold replacement cost is outrageous. I will try anything before having the manifold replaced. If I do decide to bite the bullet, I will source them online and have the dealer install them like Larz did. They quoted me 12 hr labor at $1600 but I can't remember if that was for both sides. There's a lot more work involved in replacing them on the AWD models because of the transfer case/transmission, hence the higher cost vs RWD. Since you have to jack the motor anyway to do the passenger side, it would make more sense to go ahead and replace both at the same time if you have the AWD. (if you plan on keeping the car long term, which I plan on doing)

They inspected my manifolds and there is no evidence of cracks or any leaks. I will see how this cleaning service performs and update at a later time.

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:bigthumb: Left the light on to see if it would turn itself off, which randomly happened today. Interested to see how long that lasts lol. It has been a little less hot with lots of rain. No changes to anything otherwise.

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This is the periodic check-in to see how everyone is doing.
Have more people joined the club? Has anyone bit the bullet yet?

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Ya know, there is comfort in community. Am I the only one who actually changed his CATs when the warning light came on? Granted, we went through the 'lets try the sensors first' but, but the new sensors also sent a code. I'm told that IF the CAT is just dirty, cleaning may fix the trouble ior at least extend the life, but if they are clogged from dislodged substrates, they must be changed. My question is this: How can you determine if a CAT is just dirty or blocked and how can you determine if you're getting a proper cleaning or just snake oil?

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I'm not sure what the thread size is for our O2's, but has anyone tried an O2 extension or spacer? That's how we get rid of the O2 codes on test pipes. Someone might want to try since this thing called winter is coming up in a few month for those lucky enough to live on the mainland.
I wish there were after market headers and HFC for this car T_T

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=o2+sensor+spacer

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EdBwoy wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:55 am
This is the periodic check-in to see how everyone is doing.
Have more people joined the club? Has anyone bit the bullet yet?
So far, I have about 1280 miles since my last post when I had the emissions cleaning service performed, no DTC's. I haven't run any live diagnostics to verify the operating temps pre-cat and post-cat but so far the car runs great.
Larz wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:59 am
Ya know, there is comfort in community. Am I the only one who actually changed his CATs when the warning light came on? Granted, we went through the 'lets try the sensors first' but, but the new sensors also sent a code. I'm told that IF the CAT is just dirty, cleaning may fix the trouble ior at least extend the life, but if they are clogged from dislodged substrates, they must be changed. My question is this: How can you determine if a CAT is just dirty or blocked and how can you determine if you're getting a proper cleaning or just snake oil?
There are separate O2 sensor codes; so far, I've only been getting the P0420. You can determine a lot by looking, so I unbolted my X-pipe and did a visual inspection through the exit end of both cats. From what little I can see and feel, the substrate seems to be intact, not broken or loose, and the holes look to be clear with no abnormal build up. As far as getting proper cleaning, if I'm not getting DTC's, or if they are far between then I can guess that the cleaning regimen is working. My driving is mostly highway/interstate roads, commuting back and forth to work. I don't race or beat on my car, other than a stoplight run or a pull from a roll here and there. I run BP 93 octane, but for a while, I was running 93 ethanol free gas from Quality Mart. It was around this time that I started getting the P0420 codes. It could've been coincidence (my mileage was around 95k when I got the 1st DTC). Another thing that crossed my mind was possibility the Uprev tune and/or custom exhaust, but folks with stock tunes and exhausts are having the same issues, so I ruled that out. I bought my car used, 3 year old lease turn in with 52k miles. It originally came from Pepe Infiniti in White Plains, NY but ended up in Tennesee, where I had it shipped from Carmax there to Carmax here in Winston-Salem, NC. I know that the previous owner (a woman) had the car serviced regularly, and did a pretty good amount of driving based on the mileage, but I don't know what kind of driving she did.

For now, based on my observations with my car, I will continue to run it as is, and keep monitoring it. Just a recent recap:
104,174 - pulled P0420 DTC
104,667 - DTC went out on its own, added 1 bottle of Cataclean, reflashed Uprev tune
105,664 - pulled P0420 DTC
105,868 - DTC went out on its own
106,028 - pulled P0420 DTC
106,490 - took car to dealership and performed emissions cleaning service, they reset DTC, gave me outrageous quotes on manifold(s) replacement
107,770 - no DTC's

I mentioned earlier that the cleaning is a good option if your cats are simply a little dirty and not actually damaged or clogged too much. The Cataclean is not meant to repair your cats. In my case, I believe that I can keep driving it for a while anyway, until I decide what to do long term.

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I've done 349.2 miles so far with my check engine light off. Not sure what changed but this is by far the longest its gone once the temperatures weren't summer like (most mornings now are in the 50s and evenings are chillier).

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Ilya wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:34 am
I've done 349.2 miles so far with my check engine light off. Not sure what changed but this is by far the longest its gone once the temperatures weren't summer like (most mornings now are in the 50s and evenings are chillier).
I had another P0420 pop up at 108,085...it lasted 1595 miles since the cleaning service. My dealership owes me 1/2 the cost of the cleaning service if I decide to replace my manifolds. I added a bottle of Cataclean, and did a reset at 108,138. I've been using BP 93 all of this time, so I decided to try a different gas going forward. They just opened a Mobil station on the way to work. I filled up with their 93 octane gas after the Cataclean treatment, so I will see how this gas performs compared to the BP 93. Maybe a different blend will make a difference.

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Ilya
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Yeah I switched back to Sunoco 93 myself after seeing the posts regarding 91 non-ethanol vs 93 ethanol.

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Chances are, regardless of which fuel station you purchase your fuel, that fuel probably came from Shell Oil (technically Royal Dutch Shell) - the largest gasoline supplier in the US. The difference from one brand to another (at the actual pump) are the additives and detergents used by Exxon Mobil Vs BP Vs Chevron, etc. Shell stations claim to have the best additives and they charge significantly higher prices than competitors. I have tried a few tanks of Shell with no noticeable difference in mpg or performance so I never went back. We must have standards though - I won't purchase fuel at any convenience store or any shabby looking station because I wonder if the underground tanks have rusty water and contaminants in them. If the station or store is unkempt, I assume their tanks are equally uncared for. I always by 93 octane (91 is not available here) and usually from the same Mobil station each time. I will never buy anything from BP - not after the destruction, the outright lies, and lack of humanity they showed and continue to show in the deepwater horizon disaster - not even if their prices were half what I currently pay.

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Ilya wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:34 am
I've done 349.2 miles so far with my check engine light off. Not sure what changed but this is by far the longest its gone once the temperatures weren't summer like (most mornings now are in the 50s and evenings are chillier).
Welp. I got to 589 miles and just 30 seconds after I checked my Torque app to see the status of my tests and how many miles I have gone with it off, it came back on. That, and I made a comment about this issue on the FB group. Totally jinxed myself.

Bummer.

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Ilya wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:36 am
Welp. I got to 589 miles and just 30 seconds after I checked my Torque app to see the status of my tests and how many miles I have gone with it off, it came back on. That, and I made a comment about this issue on the FB group. Totally jinxed myself.

Bummer.
My tag renews at the end of this month. I had an interesting development that I wanted to share. Last oil change was at 105k. I'm close to 110k miles now, so I will be due for another oil change - 5W30 Mobil 1 full synthetic. Every 2.5k I check my catch cans, and drain any oil that I trap. I want to note that since I replaced my PCV valves I am not trapping as much, maybe about half of what I was trapping...hardly any from Bank 2, mostly from Bank 1. Anyway, recently I was getting a P0174 code, lean condition on Bank 2. Of course this makes the car run rich, and as a result I also pulled a P0430 code along with it. (first time ever getting a P0430) My emissions inspection is due by the end of this month, so I needed to see what was going on here...so I popped the hood with the car running and heard a slight hissing sound on the passenger side, like a vacuum leak. I found that the drain valve on the catch can was slightly cracked and was sucking air, probably from when I did my check 2500 miles ago. As soon as I closed it off, the car idled back to normal (lean condition causes car to idle higher) holy crap maybe I fixed both issues. I reset the codes and took it to the station but they couldn't get a pass/fail that quick. I drove it to work and tried again the next day, and it passed no problem. P0420 is still intermittent, didn't rear its head this time around.

On a side note, I did find the best price so far at Infiniti Parts Dealer for manifolds, $630 for each bank and $27 for each gasket. $1600 labor if I furnish the parts, so around 3k if I have both banks done.

I thought about ditching the catch cans, and replumbing the PCV valves back to stock. I kept the original hoses for this purpose. I'm not really trapping that much since I replaced the PCV valves. For some reason, I'm still trapping more on Bank 1, so I will probably keep them in place for now.

Once my gas tank gets close to empty, I will add another bottle of Cataclean and carry on. Soon, I will have my transmission/transfer case fluids changed and get a more detailed cost analysis on having the manifolds replaced.

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Ilya
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I change my PCV valves pretty regularly (30kmi). I don't think I've ever had a valve that didn't rattle (good) although they typically rattle less than the new ones (as they have some sludge or whatever in there).

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armybrat
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Ilya wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:15 pm
I change my PCV valves pretty regularly (30kmi). I don't think I've ever had a valve that didn't rattle (good) although they typically rattle less than the new ones (as they have some sludge or whatever in there).
Yep that part is very important to proper emissions function. It will rattle even new, main thing is that it doesn't leak by. Even a slight leak in the valves will let excess oil blow by which in the long run, will cause your cats to clog up. A breach in the hoses will suck air which will make the car run rich, as I found out last week. This will also affect cat function.


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