Capabilities of the 1990 Infinity Q45 Engine

[sijoko]

So will this stroker kit definitely fit the VH45DE? If it does, look out.

$2500 is not bad, considering no other options exist. My concern is how the stroked crank would hold up under boost.

I read in an article that SCAT can make a custom crank for around $1300. But someone has to know the exact specs. Here's a link:

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com....html

Did you find out the specs on the pistons and the crank? I am curious as to how far the VH45DE can be bored out.

Good job, trick240sx.

-sijoko

[trick240sx]

I am still waiting on a email back from the guy. I will post when I find out

[QShip]

I am so glad that AGM and others have made or are making these types of serious mods to their cars!!

The Q needs this in a bad way!!

AGM, any more info on your headers?

[sijoko]

I emailed Courtney about the Opcon/Autorotor kit for the VH45DE. I should hear something soon.

[AGM]

trick240sx,

The Motec M800 is an Australian laptop programmable ECU that is regarded as one of the best in the world.

I piggy backed the Motec into the OEM ECU, however in your case it would most likley be easier to use it as a stand alone ECU.

I can list pages of why I am so happy with the Motec, but its only limitation is the abilty of the tuner to get the most out of it. It is so advanced, that you can tune each cylinder individually!

For the usa website, see

http:http://www.motec.com/home.htm

You will not be dissapointed with a Motec M800

The pictures were sent to me pdf by courtney. Unfortunatley I don't have them anymore. I am sure courtney will send you them.

Regards

Ashley Mijat

[AGM]

QShip, 1qckser & sijoko,

The headers I am referring to are the actual ones on my car.

They were desinged for a naturally aspirated set up by Jeff Garland at exhaust Dynamics

http://www.exhaustdynamics.com.au

Feel free to ring Jeff on +61892777400for any technical information.

Just don't forget the 12 hour time difference!

Now that I am blown and pushing and likley to pass 500HP I am looking to upgrade my headers if I can sell mine. ie if I don't sell them, I will leave them on the car.

I was looking to first sell them in Ausrtalia as they are for a right hand drive vehicle. I honestly can't say if they will fit a left hand drive car. My guess is that if they don't fit, it would be so close that only minor modification would be used.

If anyone is seriously interested, I will chase up the part numbers to the Aussie oem headers. If they match the one in the states, it would be a good starting point.

I am happy to release all desing copyright with the headers.There may be an opportunity here for someone to buy my headers (modify them if neccesary) and set up a jig to make multiple headers for US sales. Just a thought.

I am sorry that I can't be more specific if they will bolt straight on to a US Q45. I assume if modification is required, it would be easier than starting from scratch.

If anyone is genuinley interested in buying them from me, please feel free to contact me at [email protected]

For info on turbocharging a VH45DE I would contact Geoff Knight from Knight turbos

http://www.geocities.com/knightturbos/

PS: he build the BAD Q45 and the BAD kit prototype.

Regards

AGM

[Rembrandt]

well I found the stroker kit and its not as bad as you think it is only $2500usd The kit consists ofa stroked crankshaft, a set of forged pistons in your choice of bore sizeand compression ration, and a set of the Deves racing piston rings. Theprice is $2,499 plus your exchange crankshaft. 4.5 to 5.4 not bad

trick240sx you and I share the same concept and goal of a unique, logical hybrid, but you need to be more realistic.

You must have at least $50,000 to undertake something like this, with the parts and goals you are naming.

There are lots of questions you should ask yourself about everything in this project. Think about the stroker kit. It comes with rods, pistons, rings, and crank. What about bearings? Who is going to hone the bores? Are you going to have torque plates custom made just for one engine? What if you detonate the first engine with a lapse in the sophisticated, uncharted territory tuning? ALL serious performance engines should be torque plate honed, or else you are just throwing away power and engine longevity in something no one has proven.

If you have not already, take a look at the Freshalloy thread I linked to get a better idea of the technicalities of doing it right, which you can't disagree is the only way to do it.

[Rembrandt]

How much programming is involved with the Motec M800. Also were are the pictures located for the Q45 with the Charger mounted under the Intake in the Valley.

There's not enough room under the stock Q45 intake manifold for a worthwhile supercharger, if you want to supercharge it, the easiest way would be to use a ATI Procharger or Vortech centrifugal supercharger, using custom mounting brackets, pulleys, and belts. Ultimately, it could make more top-end horsepower than the roots type blower.

If you were to use a roots type, get a 10- or 12-71 Kobelco, SSi, or Weiland blower. You could have to have a custom made, fabricated aluminum intake manifold if you going to mount it the traditional way, between the cylinder heads. The Kobelcos and SSis are some of the best, but they are also pricey, at about $5000:

http://www.kocoa.com/2003_pricing_schedules.htm

[AGM]

As everyone is aware, modifying the VH45DE is a challenge due to

1. The few people who have experiance modifying one.2. The lack of off the shelf parts.3. The cost of modifying it.

I am first aiming at maximising the performance capability of the VH45DE with stock internals, which I estimate will be just short of 600HP, after pushing the envelope with low boost on a high compression engine.

My next stage will be more boost, with a decompreesed engine.I am favouring more boost at this stage, rather than more cubic inches due to the effect on rpm, which is one of the great joys of the VH45DE.

I am actually waiting for the new GTR to come out, as there should be a plethera of go fast goodies available when this happens.

It may be worth investiagating how long until the new GTR is launched.

A VH45DE with 25 pounds boost. Very nice!

PS: I am assuming the go fast goodies for a VK45DE will fit a VH45DE.

Regards

AGM

[Rembrandt]

Unless you want to have the car front-halved into a tubular front subframe setup, you can forget about turbos. There is simply not enough room with the shock towers and all.

Let me estimate some costs for you, if you haven't already. These costs are assuming you do pretty much everything (installation) yourself. Add shipping.

Stroker kit: $2500Head porting: $2500 (32 valves seats to radius, 16 intake ports)Kobelco roots blower: $5000Custom intake manifold: $800Custom headers to fit the tighter 240sx engine bay: $2500Engine adapter spacer plate, motor plate: $700Front motor plate: $300Dry sump oil pan, custom fabricated: $1000Dry sump oil pump, 4 stage: $1200Dry sump hardware, (tank, lines): $500MoTeC computer: fill me in, I know it's more than Accel DFI!Custom flywheel, spacer hub: $800Z32 TT aftermarket clutch, triple plate: $1500Custom length carbon driveshaft: ask the Australians.

There's most of the drivetrain.You said "custom full bodykit and everything."

How about suspension and brakes worthy of such a beast?

JIC Magic FLT A2s: $1700Tension rods, rear upper arms, solid bushings, subframe spacers: plenty.Brembo 13" with 4-piston calipers: $2000Five lug: not much, not sure.Wheels (whats your taste? mine, Volk TE37s, gray): $2000

Plus a custom made, 10 or 12 point roll cage, Sparco/Momo/Recaro carbon buckets, real 4/5 point harnesses...

Mine will have a black exterior finish. Wet looking, liquid black chrome black.

Awesome black paint: $4000

How about a hood to cover up the top secret hybrid. The stock intake manifold wants to be at least 2" above where the hood is, and with a roots blower on top, you will need a custom one.

Custom hood, hole for the bug catcher: You know what would look wicked? A bare carbon fiber hood with a bare carbon fiber bug catcher like a Funny Car or Top Fueler. Cost?

Look I am aware that I may be coming across like a jerk and negative person, but I'm trying to help you, and I know more about this than most people. Everyone knows about plenty of people that have unrealistic dreams about decked-out custom cars, who get 20% of their project started, and realize how much more they have to do. The more you know, the more you realize you didn't know. That's what uncharted territory is all about. I am trying to help, don't get pissed or defensive at me for showing you reality.

[trick240sx]

Rembrandt you dont have to worry about me getting defensive. And yes I have common sense. I am just fielding and researching some of the ideas people are throwing. I entended on turbos but if a super charge would work better I will try that. But I cortney emailed me back and the kit he made was for the 2001 Q and he said it wouldnt work with the 1991 engine. Either way I will atleast have 274hp with just the stock transfer into the 240 with the headers fabricated by a local friend that specializes in emports. If I cant find a trans the entire setup will be transfered. Second. As I stated before the custom body kit is already paid for and waiting for delivery as well as the engine bay to be painted. That brings me to a total already invested. 3500 body kit, 1991 Q45 1250. Paint job (price of paints im a paint and body man. Exhaust manifold/turbo manifolds. 500. Twin turbos 800 tuneable from 7 psi to 25psi as well as blow off valves and waist gates 1000. And if I go stroker 2500 for internals. Local machine shop will do all head work. 500 for both. That brings me to 11550 as of right now. So dont take it the wrong way I have several experience mechanic, machinest as well as friends that have 20yrs + with experience building and tuning import 4bangers as well as big block blown, turbo and nitros engines. I entend on spending close to 20,000 from start to finish and I still have a 15,000 budget. They reason I am willing to pay this the 240 was the first car I bought and the engine blew 5yrs ago. So I only ended up paying about 800 for it. That leaves me with 19200 to spend on making exactly what I want as well as looking better and being faster than the latest car coming out. Costing twice as much. Dont get me wrong I like knowledge but I hear it everywhere how this build isnt possible or to expensive. So if you could help me out on the positive side contacts and things that will help. By the way check out the kit at this link http://www.jacquemond.com/

[sijoko]

Wow, I come back after a few hours and there is tension in the air.

Anyway, Courtney said that his kit would not work on the VH45DE. But you already knew that if you read the post by trick240sx.

I am still leaning towards a turbo setup for the Q. Total cost: around $5k. With a good setup, you would not need a stroker kit.

-sijoko

[peakhp]

One note about lowering the engine in the engine bay by virtue of a drysump system. The trans will still hang down as low as the oil pan used to be so dropping it 3 inches may cause your transmission to hang dangerously low.

[QShip]

7. I would actually wait for the GTR Skyline to come out with the VK45DE for a while, as no doubt being a GTR there will be plenty of go fast goodies available.Regards

AGM

Where can you find information about the GTR Skyline?

[1qckser]

http://www.aspracing.com/frame.htm, I calledf today regarding pullys for the Q but they were closed, if you check the link they do show a pully for the 300z v6,. it looks really close to the pully on the Q, if I can cross refference the part #s that would help out a ton, or I can just compare the 2, I have one off of my spare motor and I think can come across a Z engine this weekend.

[1qckser]

Im sorry its for the 90-94 Maxima, http://www.aspracing.com/frame.htmthis link should work, no comma

[trick240sx]

no tension he is only trying to help. Much respect. Dont misinterpret my post. I know the down side I want help with the up side. Rembrandt please dont misinterpret were Im coming from.

[AGM]

QShip,

The information I have on the new GTR is in the JUly 2003 issue of wheels magazine (Australian)

http://magshop.com.au/Product.asp?ProductID=2151

Regards

AGM

[AGM]

Peakhp,

Further to the pics I sent you of my Vortech set up, I have decided to answer your questions on the NICO forum (rather than email) for the benefit of other members.

I am still using the stock injectors at this stage, but have have bumped up the fuel pressure and also now control the oem variable speed fuel pump via the motec M800.

The car no longer uses the MAF sensor with the M800 set up.

I was running 7PSI, but am looking to bump this up to 10, with the interccoler and water/alcohol injection.

At 7PSI, non intercooled and no water/alcohol injection, it produces 450HP at the flywheel on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno.

I am in the process of finalising the water to air intercooler and water/alcohol injection set up and have done a base tune.

I am looking forward to a final tune on the Dyno.

Those last remaining HP amounts availabe on a stock high compression engine, are getting more challenging to find.

Once I have finished the stock engine tune, I can have fun driving the car while I take my time building up my spare engine. Will probably just decompress, rather than stroke and decompress.

Hope I have answered your questions.

Regards

AGM

[sijoko]

AGM,

I downloaded the catalog for Motec. The price for the M800 is around $4,000. WOW!

Is it cheaper in Australia? You said that you piggy-backed it on to the stock ECU.

Exactly, what parameters are you controlling with the M800? I am just wondering if the cost justifies the return?

Thanks.

-sijoko

[peakhp]

Cool, thanks AGM. The M800 is a nice unit and should be able to handle everything you can throw at it. I think it even recognizes stock nissan CAS trigger signals. A tuner friend recommended switching out the coolant temp sensor with a bosche unit but most of the stock nissan sensors were compatible with the motecs. We chose a haltech for our project but there are 30-40 EMS's out there.

btw, I talked with JE piston last week about building some custom lower compression pistons for the VH, they quoted about $1500 for a set. They don't make any standard aftermarket for the engine. So, this pretty much reaffirms the idea that anything for this engine is most likely going to be custom, and therfore slightly $$$. Let me know when you are looking to buy and maybe we can get a break getting them to make 2 or more sets. I'm looking at 8:1's just because we are looking to do some extreme boosting. Realistically a full build can be done for 15k but only if you can fab the one off stuff in house. That or wait for a kit or the GTR to hit US soil.

The water-air intercooler route is a unique choice. Was that for space considerations? I would think the air-air would be easier, and still give good performance. Especially if you arent planning to ice it.

Also it'd be a good idea to do water injection in front of the super charger for maximum cooling effect.

Altogether it looks well engineered and well executed, I like it!

[QShip]

AGM,

I downloaded the catalog for Motec. The price for the M800 is around $4,000. WOW!

Is it cheaper in Australia? You said that you piggy-backed it on to the stock ECU.

Exactly, what parameters are you controlling with the M800? I am just wondering if the cost justifies the return?

Thanks.

-sijoko

I thought you knew AGM was the screen name for Bill Gates.

[AGM]

Sijoko,

The price of the Motec is dependant upon what 'extras' you buy.The Motec comes as a base unit, with a key (code) to open up the each additional feature.

My engine tuner is the state distributor for Motec, so I assume I could get the base unit cheaper than a US distributor. The M800 is the top of the range and the other units in the Motec range are also very good.

The Motec controls everything to do with the engine, from timing, ignition, cold start and even the variable timing. It also controls the water injection and small things like the thermo fan ect. It really is very versatile.

For me, the cost was worth it, as I have purchased an ECU that is fully adjustable, so what ever I throw at it, I just re-tune.

For example, if I add Nitrous, it can controll this. If I decompress the engine, I simply retune it with the new parameters. Saves me buying a different ECU everytime I shift the goal posts.

Regards

AGM

[AGM]

peakhp,

I have not looked to far into decompressed pistons at this stage, but if I do it, I would likley go JE pistons.

Don't they have one close that might fit with an overbore.

Even if you have to oversize the bore a few thou, it may be worth looking at. Just a thought.

I chose the water to air intercooler as it is more efficent than an air to air intercooler. This set up is complicated and costly, but gets me closer to ambient air temperature.

My intercooler is very complex, but breifly, I have a large storage tank in the boot that holds the water. There are two water circuits to and from it. The first one being the traditional circuit and the second is refrigerated. I am refrigerating the water, not the air as has been tried by many people in the past. This way, I can have 'iced' water, without having to fill up with ice all the time.

The aquamist has been installed just in front of the throttle body to combine the coolling effect of cold air and chamber cooling, which are two different things. Take a look at the Aquamist site for an explanation of this.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

Regards

AGM

[peakhp]

We would need a 93mm bore piston or 93.5mm depending if your block needs to be overbored. Most of the sport compact pistons they have are 88mm, 87mm, 83mm, too small actually. I'm all for saving money but I feel that the piston should be the most optimal component for the application that everything else then builds upon. If you are building a high boost engine and know detonation will be an issue, by all means take the opportunity to (swain tech) goldcoat them, and TBC the combustion chamber, etc. That alone would be give comparable detonation suppression results as water injection. I'm still entertaining other piston manufacturers, so I'll post back on a better and/or cheaper solutions when I collect that information.

That is certainly an elaborate method of intercooling! Its well known that when icing an intercooler it is possible to have greater than 100% efficiency if the output temperature is less than the input temp. I've read that the optimal intake air temperature should be 100 F, lower than that fuel doesn't vaporize as well, and higher than that is just extra heat that lowers volumetric efficiency. One thought would be to take a temp reading of inlet and outlet intercooler temperatures to see where you are at. Or even a few inches before the throttle body right now with no intercooler. If you are already cooling the air quite well with a water system, after all water is like 7 times better thermal conductor compared to air, perhaps refrigeration wouldn't even be necessary, I'm not certain.

I'm familiar with the auqamist system and fully believe that it is excellent at inhibiting detonation to a point but I take the standpoint that it should be used as "icing on a cake" to get that last psi or two of boost in there, or for maxiumum effort runs.

regards..

[sijoko]

Is there any way to strengthen the stock cast pistons?

How about cryo-treating them? This would keep costs down, if it can be done.

-sijoko

[DAEDALUS]

I won't say they can't be improved, but there are always tradeoffs that need to be consdered. Strength is only one aspect of design. Once you start altering material properties, you risk sacrificing other things, like toughness and resistance to fatigue. Fatigue is the most likely failure mode--ductility is your friend. Depends on what you want out of the car. 300,000 miles or 600 miles in 3 hours?

[Q45tech]

4.5 liters is big for a high rpm V8 [7300 rpm REAL redline] where longevity is paramount.

From the ideal efficiency point of view 4 cylinders should be 2.0 liters [3 liters for a V6] thus 4.0 liters for a V8 with 32 valves.

Obviously Nissan has been forced to bore out the recent engines to {2.5 vs 3.5 vs 4.5 even back in 1990] to jump the competition ....... at what cost.

But then BMW, Audi, Lexus and Cadillac etc have 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, 4.6 liter V8 but generally the stroke is longer and rpms more limited.Mercedes 3 valve V8 at 5.0 liters and 5.5 liters are special lower rpm cases.....Audi 5 valve is going the wrong way as the cylinder head clover is smoggy in certain cruise conditions..weird crevices.

With optimum valve sizes and 4 valves there is a perfect bore size and 500cc per cylinder works better than even 561.75cc.Nissan went to interfearence and flycut pistons recesses for valves and modified pentaroof head to cheat the physics with a 3.256" stroke.

If you spray enough oil on the stock piston bottoms and cermaic coat the tops and the combustion chambers things would last.Just limit rpms.

[peakhp]

Which brings an interesting point. Does the VH45DE have oil squirters like the VG's?

[maxnix]

Audi 5 valve is going the wrong way as the cylinder head clover is smoggy in certain cruise conditions..weird crevices.

What is worse is even with the best breathing technology, the Audis are undersquare.

VH45DE does not have oil piston coolers.