CA18DET transmission rebuild kit ... which one to use?

Discuss topics related to the CA18DE and CA18DET series engines.
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ska69
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no progress yet...


yohnp
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what about

ca18 trans + ka bellhousing = win?

for a ka24de

Margus
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ska69 wrote:no progress yet...
So tell us, is it a match :)

blownhemi
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Margus wrote:
ska69 wrote:no progress yet...
So tell us, is it a match :)
My transmission comes apart next week, if all goes according to plan (nothing went according to plan about this build so far, FYI :) ). We'll see then if the rebuild kit fits.

blownhemi
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Margus, enable PMs in your profile, if you expect answers... ;)

DTS-BK133BWS - for the S13 240SX, this is the kit I've ordered
DTS-BK133AWS - going by the model years and model designations on the page in the OP, is still think this is for the USM S12 200SX. ska69, I don't know if you've ordered this in the end, and what has come of it...

Kit included a bunch of synchro rings, 6 bearings, some oil seals, and a paper gasket for the front cover. If I don't forget, I'll shoot some pics tomorrow.

Still couldn't get around to take the transmission apart, though... but here's some info I've cobbled together mostly from nissan4u.com, and FSMs. Pointing towards, that the kit I've ordered, DTS-BK133BWS, will more likely than not will only be a partial match for the Euro CA gearbox. Yay.

http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/synchro/synchro_pn.htm
So, going strictly by part numbers:
1st & 2nd synchros match
3rd & 4th doesn't
5th synchro matches
But... KA 2nd = EuroCA 2nd & 3rd, so I can either have a new 2nd or 3rd, depending on which one is worse.
Bearings mostly match, with the exception of one, but that incorrect one I'll just get from a local SKF or Koyo dealer. I'd advise you do the same about bearings, and just order synchros. If possible, piece together a kit that will definitely match your CA gearbox.
Or order the KA kit, find a KA trans. locally, rebuild it, and swap bellhousings. :)


In any case, FS5W71C my S.

Margus
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Many thanks to you Hemi. :dblthumb:
Let me get this strait. I have euro ca18det, so I have multi piece 2nd ring and BWS includes this. But on the other hand, if you see this drawing http://nissan4u.com/parts/200sx/el_s13/ ... tration_2/ you see, that the 1st and 2nd ring are larger, than the 3rd and 4th like in the AWS kit but the parts nr. doesn´t match? :(

So far we know
BWS: AWS: (ska69, you have also euro ca18, maybe few words?)
1. Jes 1. No
2. Jes 2. No
3. No 3. No
4. No 4. No
5. Jes 5. Jes

I defenitly need 2nd, 3rd and 4th ring, but which kit includes 3rd and 4th? :gotme

blownhemi
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Margus wrote:Many thanks to you Hemi. :dblthumb:
Let me get this strait. I have euro ca18det, so I have multi piece 2nd ring and BWS includes this. But on the other hand, if you see this drawing http://nissan4u.com/parts/200sx/el_s13/ ... tration_2/ you see, that the 1st and 2nd ring are larger, than the 3rd and 4th like in the AWS kit but the parts nr. doesn´t match? :(

So far we know
BWS: AWS: (ska69, you have also euro ca18, maybe few words?)
1. Jes 1. No
2. Jes 2. No
3. No 3. No
4. No 4. No
5. Jes 5. Jes

I defenitly need 2nd, 3rd and 4th ring, but which kit includes 3rd and 4th? :gotme
Don't take the illustrations too seriously... they are not always dead-on accurate, or to scale.

I think it's hopeless to find a kit that matches the Euro CA 100% (apart from phoning your friendly local Nissan dealership). You could ask the site, if they would piece together a kit for you, and then ask for two KA 240SX 2nd gear synchros, as those part numbers are the same. BUT: part numbers are the same for the EuroCA 2nd and 3rd synchro, but one of them is supposed to have a double ringed synchro, the other not. How can they be the same part number, then?
I think I'm sufficiently confused about the matter to not think about it any further, at least not until I have the tranny apart.

I wonder if the reason for ska69 not reporting in is that he is out there enjoying the hell out of his fresh, rebuilt transmission.

And, btw, this is what I got.
Image
6 ball bearings
1 needle bearing
2 oil seals
6 synchros
I presume bottom middle and right make up the double 2nd syncho, as the middle one fits nicely inside the right one. Top middle and bottom left look like they are the same (3rd and 4th).

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ska69
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sorry mates,

I just decided to hold of my transmission rebuild as I recently restored my ol' rusty shell to a at last restored condition and therefor don't have money for a tranny rebuild kit at this point :( I need to put back in the interior and wire up the chassis, and then I'll look into the tranny rebuild part.

Blownhemi, I wish I will have a freshly rebuilt transmission some day :)

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ska69
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If anyone is interested, I just bought a used ca18det tranny, which seems to be in good condition. drained oil had no metal flakes, shaft spins nicely...However I'm still a bit concerned about its condition - all in all it's a used part.

Is there any way to check the condition on the gearbox whilst it's not bolted up to the engine?

blownhemi
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A short update now, one year after we rebuilt the transmission, in case someone still follows this. :)

Synchros 1,4,5 fit without problems and were a match for my Euro (?, see later) gearbox.
Both of the gearboxes I have had double synchros on BOTH 2 and 3. This suggests either the FSM being wrong, or both of those gearboxes are the Outside-Europe model. So I lacked one of the double synchos, as the kit only had one double synchro (see pic). The double synchro was a match for both 2nd and 3rd, though. So we put half of the new double synchro into 2nd, the other into 3rd, depending on which looked the worst.

Bearing were all matches, but that didn't come as a surprise.

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ska69
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We're following silently lol :)

Interesting stuff! Maybe I should try rebuilding the spare used gearbox and see if it's a match with your results...but on the other hand a used ca18 gearbox costs around 50 bucks locally and I also have an auto gearbox laying around I might be just to lazy to get into the rebuild. lol

CaDet s13
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Ok, so what i have gathered from reading this post over a few times is that the kit that blownhemi got works fine except that i would have to order another double syncro for it to be a complete rebuild kit?

blownhemi
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CaDet s13 wrote:Ok, so what i have gathered from reading this post over a few times is that the kit that blownhemi got works fine except that i would have to order another double syncro for it to be a complete rebuild kit?
For both *MY* CA transmissions, this would be true, but I'm not even sure, which region they are from, I would've guessed Europe, since I'm in Europe, but then the FSM would be wrong about the Euro synchros. So the only definite conclusion I was able to draw, is that I can't draw any definite conclusion. What you will need will depend entirely on which transmission you have, and the only certain way to tell that is to pull the bellhousing, and have a look-see at 2nd and 3rd.

But for someone in the US, I wouldn't bother with this rebuild. You're supposed to have heaps of KA transmissions at junkyards, get one with low mileage, good shape, and swap the bellhousing over. I would have much rather done that, as it was a PITA to get the transmission apart, and put it together w/o any experience on the matter, and just general tools. Even managed to damage a gear in the process (a couple of backside edges broke off), and had to have a left-hand nut custom made (not expensive, just had to find a capable machinist with a lathe very quickly), because the stock one lost its threads.

Or even if you decide on a rebuild, I'd still rather get a KA box, and do that, the kit should be a 100% match for that. The KA S13 was a single region car, less chance to mess up FSMs and part no.s, as opposed to the CA S13, which was exported to loads of regions, in loads of trims.
Plus, taller KA 5th, and I'd always go with a taller 5th, especially for a turbo car.

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float_6969
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I didn't think the KA had double synchro's on 2nd and 3rd though?

blownhemi
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float_6969 wrote:I didn't think the KA had double synchro's on 2nd and 3rd though?
No, I don't think they do, either.
- the kit is specifically for 240SX, and only contains one double synchro
- nissan4u (FAST) says only 2nd is double
- FSM says only 2nd is double

But as for CA trannies, I guess you can't know for sure.

CaDet s13
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Well it would be nice to do the ka swap. Since like yoy said it does habe a taller 5th gear but that option would cost me like three times as much money cause id have to get the tranny and then i would still rebuild that one too. I have a shop that will do the rebuild for me so i dont have to worry about screwing up the internals doing it myself. So in order to save some cash i think it would be better for me to get the rebuild you got and order a seperate double syncro? Also you said everything else in the kit you said matches up right? But then again my gears could be worn too and at that point it would probly just be a better idea to use the ka tranny... And as far as having tons of ka's in junk yards i wish that were the case, the U pull it by my house only had one 240 in it the last time i was there like a month ago and even if i were to get a tranny from a junkyard i would still do a full rebuild on it. So either way i look at it i am SoL lol

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float_6969
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I didn't rebuild my transmission, but I had it rebuilt locally by a reputable shop.

If it helps, I took them the CA transmission, and the KA transmission and told them I wanted the CA transmission rebuilt, but that it never came in an American equivalent and that they'd have to be creative to get the needed parts. I also told them I wanted the taller 5th gear out of the KA transmission installed into the CA transmission and I wanted all brand new synchros.

They fussed a bit and said they couldn't make any promises. A week later they called and said it was done.

It cost me $800 for basically a brand new transmission (they replaced a couple of worn gears, 1st and 2nd IIRC) with the taller KA 5th gear. I've had no complaints.

I bring this up because it tells me that the parts are available and this is do-able. I hope this helps.

CaDet s13
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Well, float, you definately gave me a sign of hope and that is quite helpful. So hopefully the shop i bring it you will be just as helpful as yours was. Thanks for the info

blownhemi
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About the "rebuild":
https://plus.google.com/photos/10036282 ... 8074005617

As for kit quality. Bearings were Nachi, so I wouldn't worry about the bearings, and if they put in the effort of sourcing quality bearings, they probably sourced quality synchros as well.

My tranny bearings make a slight grinding noise now, but that is - in my opinion - entirely my mistake. I ran it with heavy duty 85W140 oil for 1.5 years (in a ridiculous attempt to save the gears from shock wear). When it was a colder outside, I couldn't start the engine, unless I disengaged the clutch, and if it has started, and I let off the clutch, it almost stalled. That's how heavy an oil that was. Fast gearchanges were impossible as well, all I got was grinding. With all that, I imagine it's no wonder that the bearings make a noise after just ~3000 miles, they didn't get the lubrication they needed. Don't do this, use the right oil for your climate.

Since then, I've switched to 75W90 Castrol something. Fast (for me) gear changes are now possible. (unless I shift above 6800, because then my clutch gets stuck :) ) Some soft bearing grinding still can be heard, though, the damage is done.

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medium
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Hi everyone,

I read this entire post a couple of times but I just wanted to clarify some points (if you guys still remember information about these rebuild kits).

I took apart my FS5W71C from a 89 200SX S13 european model (from Switzerland). I checked, I do have a 3-piece synchro on the 2nd only. In addition, 1st and 2nd synchro sizes are the same, as well as the 3rd + 4th. So far, the FSM was correct in my case.

@blownhemi (sorry, can't PM you, I'm a new member), the kit you ordered was DTS-BK133BWS and seems to includ everything I need for my rebuild. You stated the 2nd synchro was a multi piece one, but does it contain 2 or 3 pieces ?

Thanks for your the help !
Mat

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float_6969
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Unfortunately, he hasn't been on NICO in over a year, so I doubt he'll respond to this. What I gathered from the picture he posted was that the 2nd gear synchro was a 2 piece.

blownhemi
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Hi there,

my memory is quite fuzzy on most of it now, had to re-read everyting I wrote, and look up the pictures I took. :)

I may have got the terminology wrong. My 2nd and 3rd synchros were made up of 3 pieces, but only two of them were brass. The third, middle ring was silvery looking, probably steel, and did not look like a wear item. I was focused on the brass pieces very much, hence why I called it 2-piece, but that would be a 3-piece synchro, then?

In any case, that middle steel(?) ring was not part of the kit, we reused the old one. So you should be set with that kit. I'm kind of surprised it is still available 10 years later.

(I'm still getting notifications of subscribed threads, by the way, but I've slowly stopped posting, then slowly stopped lurking as well, along with how my enthusiasm, energy, and patience for the car slowly faded away. :( )

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Hey,

Thanks for the word, appreciated !

So, we do have same config on this multipiece synchros ! I'll see if rebuild kit comes with the middle steel ring or not, let you know guys !

Here is a couple of pics of the old sync ring, maybe for a future reference.
Attachments
IMG_20200523_113230.jpg
IMG_20200523_113005.jpg

blownhemi
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Here are the pics I took from the teardown/rebuild, maybe it helps someone.
transmission teardown and rebuild
This webhost is a bit spotty, if it's down for a long time, shoot a message here, and I'll look for a new one.

Inferno56kb
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@medium did you ever manage to finish this? I'd be interested to know if the kit fit as my tranny will be going through a rebuild this summer and if it's a good kit I'll order it. What I found interesting is that on the pictures from @blownhemi the bearings are unshielded. I found a video of an (s14) tranny rebuild where they specifically mention getting Nissan OEM bearings because they were shielded, might be interesting if that would be a worthwhile (and possible or not) upgrade when doing a rebuild on an S13 tranny. Also the same tranny number having so many differences really triggers me.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFOR2_k ... CMAutohaus

I'll have to see if I can find a KA 5th gear too as I'd also love the longer gear for Autobahn drives.

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Hi @inferno56kb,

I did finish my rebuild and everything is working as brand new (2nc syncro is a bit hard when gearbox is cold but after warming it up, welcome double clutching :-D). I managed to do rear main seal, clutch, pilot bearing (with bread trick :-D) and pressure plate as well, as it would be a pain to remove the transmission one more time to do this work later.

Anyway, I have almost every nissan references of this gearbox's components (and parts are available online). Just ask :-)

Shame on me, I started a thread on this rebuild but forgot to finish (the job was so satisfying I forgot to share). Anyway, you'll find some info here :
topic626797.html

The kit I ordered from ebay was a 2nd gear 3 piece syncro, the rests are 1pce syncros only. I know 1st + 2nd syncros are the same sizes, 3rd+4th syncros also and 5th syncro is the smallest one. Here is the link https://www.ebay.com/itm/Transmission-B ... 2749.l2649
(perfect fit for a 1989 200sx s13 from Europe. Every part included was the correct one, and the bearings were all unshielded).

These videos also helped me a lot :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_6o1De40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgY9iyGYamM

Please, let me know if you need any advice on that (I still have pictures ;-)). I did this job without a press and without grinding anything.

Mat

(sorry for my bad english, I just turned 30 yo, I'm really tired of last night and english is not my native language ;-))

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float_6969
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Thanks for updating this post and all the links! I actually have a strange noise in 4th gear. and was worried about being able to get parts to fix it, it's good to know it can still be fixed!

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Absolutely, you will find every diagram on https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/, and parts are available under https://www.amayama.com/en. any question, feel free to ask, i'm happy to help

Inferno56kb
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Hey @medium I'm closing in on finally doing this as well. I've checkt your post (and holy s*** did you order a lot of extra parts xD) Interestingly in the german sxoc group someone wrote they ordered the same kit but their transmission had multi piece syncros in 2nd and 3rd gear. I'll pull mine apart before ordering, do you happen to also have the part numbers for
rear main seal, clutch, pilot bearing, pressure plate.

Did you get an oil cooler for the gearbox as well? I've talked to some people using these in their racecars (specifically the engine builder ZEX in Germany) and they said that to make these boxes last it is highly recommended to get a small oilcooler fitted to the box, around 8-10 rows should be enough. It seems the biggest weakness is that the oil gets hot if you drive a prolonged time relatively fast (150km/h is already enough according to them)

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@inferno56kb, You took a good decision :-D
Personnaly, I wonder if this 3piece syncrhos are weaker than the others (and why they exist but I'm not mechanical engineer so I probably miss the point here).

Otherwise, I do have references you asked for :

rear main seal : 12279-AD205 but I ordered Musashi N2348 - SEAL instead. Fits perfectly even if it is thinner
clutch : I ordered a kit with pressure plate, clutch disc, bearing and sleeve. Its reference is : Aisin KN-076A
But I found this in my OEM part list :
- Bearing-Clutch Release : 30502-21000
- Sleeve-Clutch Release 30501-S0100
- Spring-Holder, Clutch Release Bearing 30514-14600
- Spring-Retaining, Withdrawal Lever 30534-E9000
pilot bearing (the one inside the gearbox) : 1x Bearing-Pilot, Main 32272-36900 32272-36910
bush pilot the one inside the crankcase used to align the gearbox 1x Bush-Pilot 32202-B950A (used bread and grease to hammer it out ;-))
pressure plate : don't have it because it was contained in a kit, but I took pictures of references of the original part : Atsugi NISSAN 38F01 but can't find anything online.

lol, I took lots of pictures of everything doing this job, really loved it (big smile on my face now).

Regarding the oil cooler, I never heard of it and didn't install anything additionnal to my gearbox (my s13 is almost full stock and stays this way :-)).

I just thought about it, you'll need a special tool to torque the main lock nut on the gearbox mainshaft. here is a picture and reference + a picture of my own. Space between two hole is calculated acccording to the official documentation to get the correct torque value. Feel free to borrow if necessary ;-)

And just some random links to help pages I used to all these jobs :

https://www.zdriver.com/forums/attachme ... .pdf%3BVol aka the bible ;-)
https://datsun510.com/downloads/ (zip file)
https://www.classiczcars.com/forums/top ... 3#comments
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1.jpg


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