BREAKING NEWS! Nissan GTR Engine Revealed

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AZhitman
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Jesda wrote:Nonsense!!!! Would you say the same of the 911? The Corvette has found a look thats both futuristic and current, while retaining its recognizability. Porsche has done the same.
Futuristic? Not even CLOSE.

Current? Maybe.

Looks much the same as it did in 1984, when it WAS "futuristic".

Absolutely I would say the same of the 911. It's VERY much the same as it was in 1976, but it has (IMO) "aged" much better.
Jesda wrote:You're so caught up in GTR fever that you've lost sight of market realities.
Far from it - I'm a closet skeptic on the GTR.

I just understand the market as a WORLD market, not a US market - You, a student of the automotive market, a critic of all that is failed in Detroit, a connoisseur (at least on paper) of what "works" and what doesn't, you of all people can grasp that.


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Jesda
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AZhitman wrote:I just understand the market as a WORLD market, not a US market - You, a student of the automotive market, a critic of all that is failed in Detroit, a connoisseur (at least on paper) of what "works" and what doesn't, you of all people can grasp that.
How in the world is that relevant to your irrational fist-pounding over how the Corvette will suddenly become marginalized, unpopular, and lose its iconic status? You're seeing the sports car market as a narrow band in which purchases are made solely on specifications.

That is NOT the case, because the vast majority sports car purchases are made out of EMOTION -- typical of a non-essential luxury good. An icon is an icon, and its history is a tremendous part of that reputation.

The GTR new to America, regardless of what JDM fans may already know.

Remember folks, whats popular on NICO CLUB is, believe it or not, often unpopular elsewhere, just as the Corvette has fought for acceptance in Europe.

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Jesda wrote:
Wow, Civics are in video games too. Excellent criteria! I'll buy myself a Civic Hybrid and take it to Woodward.
The civic is an icon as well. Deal with it. Now go join honda-tech forums

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MattB wrote:
They'll recognize the letters, but they probably won't associate them with "Nissan" outside of people who play video games and Japanese car enthusiats. The Skyline/GT-R simply does not have much name recognition in this country. The Corvette and 911 are legends to the average American. The GT-R will be an unknown. While it can certainly build up the image, I think it would greatly benefit it to wear an Infiniti badge. Like it or not many people buy these kind of cars based on image as much as performance. People don't see a Corvette and think "Chevy", but they will see the GT-R and think "Nissan", and from a brand image standpoint that's not a good thing. Most people just don't associate Nissan with cars in the Corvette/911 class.

For another reason the GT-R should be an Infiniti, consider this: the average Infiniti owner bringing their car in for dealer service is more likely to be able to afford a GT-R than the average Nissan owner bringing their car in. Someone who owns an M45 probably has more money than someone driving an Altima, and thus is more likely to be able to afford a fun car like a Corvette. If the M45 owner sees the GT-R when he brings his car in for an oil change, he will check it out and maye consider it when he goes to buy a "weekend car". The Altima owner is less likely to have the disposable income to afford a GT-R, so its presence at the Nissan dealership is not as likely to induce an existing owner to purchase it.
Every enthusiast I know knows the GT-R. Muscle car enthusiasts, European car enthusiasts and of course Japanese car enthusiasts. The GT-R is NOT for the average person, and it's known by any true automotive enthusiast.

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AZhitman
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Jesda wrote:Remember folks, whats popular on NICO CLUB is, believe it or not, often unpopular elsewhere, just as the Corvette has fought for acceptance in Europe.
Right.

And what's popular and iconic in America is often seen as irrelevant and laughable in other countries.

The Corvette is popular ONLY in America.

All I said was this: the styling is bland, performance is beatable, and build quality is questionable.

I never said "OMGTEHGTRISTEHGREATEST".

It WILL steal 'vette sales (which are sucking right now anyway).

While 'vette buyers may buy based on emotions, they SURE love to truck out the stats, so don't be too sure that they're not reading.

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Jesda
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The Corvette is iconic and instantly recognizable in every country. In Japan they've been importing them despite obvious impracticalities. Check out the Automobile Magazine article on how the US, through intimidation, initiated trade with Japan and opened the Japanese to stylish American automobiles. Granted, these cars weren't necessarily better engineered, but they became pop icons and objects of aspiration.

The GTR does not covet lusting outside of enthusiast circles, where people know exactly what it is. And be informed that sports car buyers, an emotional bunch with more money than knowledge, are not all sports car enthusiasts.

You and I, despite neither of us owning any $60,000 sports cars, know more about them and the corporations that build them than the typical Rich Guy Joe who walks into a Maserati dealer.

Take a survey of the world's population, ask which they'd rather have. Between the Corvette and GTR, they'll choose the only vehicle they actually know. Why? Its not because the GTR is an inferior product. Its because of culture, popularity, history, and media.

You are asserting that the GTR is a threat to the Corvette's iconic status, and you are wildly exaggerating the GTR's popularity outside of Japan. That COULD change, but it won't happen unless the GTR becomes an aspirational object. Being a brilliant sports car isnt enough to become an icon.

Despite the Corvette's worst years, its past mechanical flaws, and design duds, the "icon" status has remained firm. The GTR doesnt have the same advantage, because of its absence from the largest and wealthiest auto market in the world. There's decades of Chevy Corvette and Porsche 911 lust, coveting, and desire to catch up to.

Sorry Greg, I agree with some of what you're saying, but unseating an icon takes more than a great car.
Modified by Jesda at 7:30 AM 8/20/2007

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Okay this thread is now officially DUMB. Who the **** cares about speculation? It means as much as a movie critic's opinion: jack SHIZNET

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You know this has been a long time coming.............. I am with you on this one, and the bottom line is "IT"S ABOUT TIME!!"Cannot wait!! WILL, be a KING in it's own right, and thats the bottom line.

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S14SRPilot wrote:Okay this thread is now officially DUMB. Who the **** cares about speculation? It means as much as a movie critic's opinion: jack SHIZNET
Speculation is fun. We get to have discussions.

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Jesda wrote:
Speculation is fun. We get to have discussions.
+1

This being sort of the POINT of forums, that, and I suppose technical knowledge.

At any rate, I agree that the GTR's worldwide success won't go very far in making it popular here with the kind of people who will have the money to buy them, but as I and others mentioned above, it won't matter because they will make so few in ALL years of production that the things will get snapped up on waiting lists year after year.

It will take 8-10 years before Nissan is comfortable enough with US perceptions of the GTR to try and sell anywhere near as many here as they sell in Japan (i.e. approaching Corvette numbers, at least in a "per capita" sense).

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Jesda wrote:
Speculation is fun. We get to have discussions.
So...does whoever guess correctly win some sort of prize that will boost your ego? If so I'll pass. If it will boost my wallet then I'll participate. Otherwise I'll just wait for it to arrive

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S14SRPilot wrote:
So...does whoever guess correctly win some sort of prize that will boost your ego? If so I'll pass. If it will boost my wallet then I'll participate. Otherwise I'll just wait for it to arrive
No... but sharing opposing view points and discussing them allows a person to test his or her line of thought verses another persons thoughts and hopefully enable all parties involved to make more informed statements in the future.

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^^and, these sorts of discussions are actually fun to some of use here, and dont need to be told to stop.

There was some talk about the car being purchaced as a weekend toy? 4 seats + 4 drive wheels = 365 days of fun a year in my book.

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i already got my fund started for this car. got about 3 bucks in change but hey its a start lol

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interesting takes on how the sales of the GTR will turn out. I think that the GTR will be a great car but I will have to see what the production numbers of these things ends up being. If I was nissan, I would focus my sales of this car EVERYWHERE but America. We might have the largest buying power and the largest amount of nissan dealerships but in all honesty, how many commercials do we really see of 70K cars? The average American doesn't spend that much on a car so there goes the TV route of advertising. The only real way for people to know of this thing is via the net or a magazine.

Now as for its sales against the corvette, that will definitely be a toss up. I think that they each have their own market as there is no targa or convertible gtr. i will say that from a pricing aspect, the vette will have the edge seeing as how a normal c6 doesn't have a dealer markup like what these GTR's will have.

as for going up against 911's, a porsche owner is a porsche owner. alot of people that own a 911 own one because they either wanted it because they owned the hotwheels version of it when they were little or because they want to make a statement. the GTR definitely doesn't have the yuppy appeal that a 911 carries since it has never been in the states.

Finally, the whole issue of what it should be badged as. Granted it being an infiniti would mean that most people walking into the dealership could probably afford it, it just wouldn't fit into the infiniti line up. Infiniti is all about luxury and this car is not focused on luxury. My only question will be for when this car goes into the dealership for service. I personally have seen what goes on in the service departments of nissan dealerships here in south florida and trust me there are FAR and FEW great mechanics that should even be allowed to hold a wrench. Granted the car shouldn't be in the dealership for more than oil changes and brake replacements, but if there are any serious issues that end up plaguing the car, good luck to that owner getting his car serviced in the proper manner.

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Jesda wrote:
Speculation is fun. We get to have discussions.
Yep. And Jesda's one of the few people who I can disagree with and still know deep down that he's not full of s***.

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Yeah, the dealer network concerns me greatly.

I know my car better than most of the techs at my dealership, and that's simply sad. Hell, I hang out with the foreman (20 years with Nissan) and he tells me some horror stories...


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AZhitman wrote:
Yep. And Jesda's one of the few people who I can disagree with and still know deep down that he's not full of s***.
how 'bout me babe, am i full of s***?

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I hope sales suck...

then I can pick one up in few years cheap (think of the NSX.. values drop like a rock even though it's a great super car)

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nissan rocks my socks

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K...thanks for sharing that little tidbit with us.

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l

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AZhitman wrote:
Futuristic? Not even CLOSE.

Current? Maybe.

Looks much the same as it did in 1984, when it WAS "futuristic".

Absolutely I would say the same of the 911. It's VERY much the same as it was in 1976, but it has (IMO) "aged" much better.

Far from it - I'm a closet skeptic on the GTR.

I just understand the market as a WORLD market, not a US market - You, a student of the automotive market, a critic of all that is failed in Detroit, a connoisseur (at least on paper) of what "works" and what doesn't, you of all people can grasp that.
Corvette has been picking up quite well the last few years in Europe. It was a matter of improving the overall perception of quality to the public, and getting the GM dealerships in Europe on board with marketing the car to Europeans. Also, the C6 was the first generation that was designed towards the European driving characteristics(and tested @ the Nueranburg(I hate spelling it as I NEVER get it right and too lazy to look it up)). Like Nissan, GM focused the majority of it's corvette sales, in America where Corvette was born and nurtured for generations. Now, however, you can see Corvette events popping up all over Europe. People are importing C1, C2's, C3's, and C4's to Britain, Germany, and other countries, then hosting events where thousands of these cars that were never sold in Europe, have ended up. When several hundred corvettes show up for an all corvette event in Britain, you know there are people that love them. My cousin Chris, who's family is from Germany, tells me all the time about how Germans love Corvettes. I'd bet there's quite a few more corvettes in Germany, than all generations of skylines that came out of Japan.

Car enthusiasts might know alot about the GT-R, but your average person does not. The average person DOES however, know about the Corvette. It has 55 years of history. Granted most of that is in America, but there's alot of history in Europe too, not to mention the recent successes this past decade at Lemans with the C5R, and C6R.

Might I add, that the ZR-1 when it came out in 1990, blew everybody away around the world, with it's performance.

As to the newer corvettes being out-dated....



I 100% disagree with you Greg.

(for those that have good eyes, I'm parked next to a 78', 25th anniversary C3 that belongs to a gal I know quite well who also owns an old Porsche 911)

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That picture encompasses almost the entire range of poor Corvette aesthetics. It started to look boring in '78, still looks uninspired and, yes, outdated, today.

<- owned a '73

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Kenrik wrote:think of the NSX.. values drop like a rock even though it's a great super car
Ummm, exqueeze me?

The NSX holds its value like crazy. Hell, even the early ones are still commanding big bucks.

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AZhitman
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1984:



2006:



22 years of innovation? Nope.

Trust me, I don't hate the car. I'm a fan. Always have been.

But the reality is, Detroit needs to take a giant leap soon or the supercars from Japan will take a bite out of sales.

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Detroit may need to make a giant leap soon, but NOT with the Corvette.There's room for a true GM supercar, but I see no reason to change the 'Vette. I find myself saying this about a lot of things lately: innovation is NOT necessary to make a good product. Don't fix what isn't broke.

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I'm inclined to agree to certain extent, with one caveat:

One of the best drivetrains in the world, wrapped in a disappointing package.

Imagine the LSx with some of the innovations we're seeing in recent V6 engines from Toyota and Nissan... Frightening.

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AZhitman wrote:
Ummm, exqueeze me?

The NSX holds its value like crazy. Hell, even the early ones are still commanding big bucks.
Older ns-x's are going for ~$20-25k ish


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