Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

The club for Nissan Maxima and Infiniti I30 / I35 owners, and the official home of Maxima Club of America!
Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:30 am

Hey Buds,

I have a 2003 nissan maxima with a 3.5vq motor. The car has 160k miles on it...and i take good care of it (get all maintenance done when needed).

TIMING CHAIN CHANGED
The MOTOR started making a load ticking sound which appeared to be coming from the tim.chain area. SO, we pulled the motor and inspected the chain. THE CHAIN looked worn and so did the guides so i ordered the parts from Rock and we changed everything in the area (including belts and water pump). WHEN my mechanic was doing the chain, he mentioned 'having trouble keeping the chain in line' and had to 'soak it in oil' TO get it to stay in line.'

NOW with the car back together,...the car runs worse than ever. I suspect something went wrong with the timing chain job.

Mechanic (personal friend of mine) said its possible that the chain jumped one-half turn AND this might cause the values to not run).

ALSO, we did a compression test and the back cylinders have good compression. The FRONT(s) came back as

Here are the compression results
*Rear Cylinders; 1,3,5 === 135,128,130
*Front Cylinders; 2,4,6 === 60,0,60
Leak down test;
*Only did cylinder 4 (since it came up 0) = 80%

Me thinks the chain was NOT OEM and might have been defective (china-made crap).

QUESTION 1: If timing chain jumped one-half-turn while running, would that affect the valves from fully opening?
QUESTION 2: Would this cause the Front Cylinders to misfire or not fire at all?

thanks for your input...

.


User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:48 am

Sounds like maybe he let it start up without first pumping-up the hydraulic tensioners. SOP with Nissan timing chains is to pull the fuel pump fuse and crank dry for about 30 seconds to build hydraulic pressure, then reinsert the fuse and let it start. I'd say VQ's jump 1~3 teeth about half the time when you fail to do that, usually on the back or righthand bank.

Teach your mechanic another trick with keeping the chains in place before the guides are in, use a string of 3~4 zip ties around the main chain until everything is in place. That way the valve spring tension can't make the cam chains force a slippage.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:01 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:48 am
Sounds like maybe he let it start up without first pumping-up the hydraulic tensioners. SOP with Nissan timing chains is to pull the fuel pump fuse and crank dry for about 30 seconds to build hydraulic pressure, then reinsert the fuse and let it start. I'd say VQ's jump 1~3 teeth about half the time when you fail to do that, usually on the back or righthand bank.

Teach your mechanic another trick with keeping the chains in place before the guides are in, use a string of 3~4 zip ties around the main chain until everything is in place. That way the valve spring tension can't make the cam chains force a slippage.
Interesting comments.

Is it too late to save this motor?

What would have to be done?

Thanks for your input!~


.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:37 pm

If it just jumped on the front bank then the cover has to come back off to put the front cam chain back where it belongs. What concerns me is the zero compression on #4, it may have jumped far enough to doink a valve. If that's the case you're into a much bigger repair. So before you tear the cover back off, I'd pull the front valve cover and check free height on the valve springs. If you find one on #4 that's substantially lower than the others when free, then that valve is bent and not seating.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:02 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:37 pm
If it just jumped on the front bank then the cover has to come back off to put the front cam chain back where it belongs. What concerns me is the zero compression on #4, it may have jumped far enough to doink a valve. If that's the case you're into a much bigger repair. So before you tear the cover back off, I'd pull the front valve cover and check free height on the valve springs. If you find one on #4 that's substantially lower than the others when free, then that valve is bent and not seating.
Thanks very much Vstar !

I forgot to Mention, we have an unusual amount of Blow-by coming from the front area as well (not too much from the back). EXCESS EXHAUST was minimized through the use of Catch can system. *THE CAR smokes like crazy. See Film..

https://i.imgur.com/uNqqd34.mp4


?

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:47 am

Holed piston most likely. Somebody play Taps, please.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:12 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:47 am
Holed piston most likely. Somebody play Taps, please.

(sigh)

The Dayum Piston has a Hole....How did this happen?

Should i bother with the 'Check Free Height' test?

(Uggh)


:frown:



.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:15 am

When a valve hits a piston, one of them gives. Usually it's the valve, but not always. :bash:

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:15 am
When a valve hits a piston, one of them gives. Usually it's the valve, but not always. :bash:
Vstar...i appreciate your insight.

Would it be worth it to check the 'Free Height on the Valve Springs?' (as you suggested before)?


:gotme



?

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:58 pm

Not if there's a hole in the bucket or a valve cocked sideways. It sounds to me like you have slightly-bent valves on #2 and #6 and either badly-bent ones or a piston-hole on #4. The huge blowby leads me to suspect the latter. Crashing everything on one bank while the other remains healthy isn't unusual, it happens when one cam chain jumps but the other cam and the main chain keep time.

I'm not very musical, someone please play Taps.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:28 pm

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:58 pm
Not if there's a hole in the bucket or a valve cocked sideways. It sounds to me like you have slightly-bent valves on #2 and #6 and either badly-bent ones or a piston-hole on #4. The huge blowby leads me to suspect the latter. Crashing everything on one bank while the other remains healthy isn't unusual, it happens when one cam chain jumps but the other cam and the main chain keep time.

I'm not very musical, someone please play Taps.

Ok...for future reference,...what went wrong?

How can i avoid this in the future?

?

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:56 pm

What did your guy find under the timing cover? It's clear that the front bank cam chain either snapped or jumped a bunch of teeth. The main chain can provoke that with back-and-forth motion when the guides wear out, but the cam chain also has to be "stretched" to allow it to jump. Chain stretch isn't really stretch, it's link-by-link wear that adds up to what seems like a longer chain. So did the engine have top-end oiling problems? Vis the main chain guides and tensioner, VQ's usually give plenty of warning when the guides are worn out. They start making a "mad bumblebee" noise that gets louder and louder as the remaining plastic gets thinner. The sound actually comes from the metal chain links gradually grinding into the metal frames of the worn-out guides. Were you getting any of that? If you still have the old chains and plan to replace the motor, you might want to do a complete autopsy and post some pics.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:00 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:56 pm
What did your guy find under the timing cover? It's clear that the front bank cam chain either snapped or jumped a bunch of teeth. The main chain can provoke that with back-and-forth motion when the guides wear out, but the cam chain also has to be "stretched" to allow it to jump. Chain stretch isn't really stretch, it's link-by-link wear that adds up to what seems like a longer chain. So did the engine have top-end oiling problems? Vis the main chain guides and tensioner, VQ's usually give plenty of warning when the guides are worn out. They start making a "mad bumblebee" noise that gets louder and louder as the remaining plastic gets thinner. The sound actually comes from the metal chain links gradually grinding into the metal frames of the worn-out guides. Were you getting any of that? If you still have the old chains and plan to replace the motor, you might want to do a complete autopsy and post some pics.

-
TIMING CHAIN JOB
No...when initially done, he found 'nothing' unusual except the chain was worn (expected w/ 160k) and guides were also worn (but nothing out of the ordinary).

OIL ISSUES
No....none prior to timing chain job (other than the usual consumption through friction, typical for the 3.5vq)

RATTLE NOISE
We discovered a rattle noise after changing variable valve Solenoids (car kept stalling out; at stop lights). When the noise was pointed out, i suggested Timing Chain or Guides was causing the problem

RECENT HISTORY
About 6 mths ago, the car was overheating and it was discovered that the Gasket head was leaking. We made the mistake of trying 'Engine Block Treatment' which stopped the car from over-heating, but ruined the radiator (and who knows what else) it clogged up. After replacing the Radiator. There was never an evidence of Water/Oil mixing...so gasket leak wasn't too bad.

SHAVED HEADS
While i had the motor out, i had the heads shaved. (i wonder if the Guy who did the heads, screwed with the Valves????)

FRONT VALUE CAM CHAIN
What if i fix this...will the car run better???

Thanks for your Valuable input...appreciate it~



:dblthumb:


.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:37 am

Balkins wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:00 am
RATTLE NOISE
We discovered a rattle noise after changing variable valve Solenoids (car kept stalling out; at stop lights). When the noise was pointed out, i suggested Timing Chain or Guides was causing the problem
The mad bumblebee isn't really a rattle, it's a definite buzz. Rattling makes me think there was probably an issue with oil pressure to the timing cover that was causing weak tension, allowing the chains to slap. This could have resulted from local sludge buildup or a baked o-ring inside the timing cover in the wake of your overheating episode. The passages into the cover are small, so any amount of clogging or any leaking seal will compromise pressure to both the tensioner and the phasers. Slapping chains generate tremendous back-and-forth inertia with changes in engine speed and phaser position, so at some point an acceleration or deceleration probably caught the cam and main chains with disparate inertial loads and forcibly jumped the cam chain.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:24 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:37 am
Balkins wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:00 am
RATTLE NOISE
We discovered a rattle noise after changing variable valve Solenoids (car kept stalling out; at stop lights). When the noise was pointed out, i suggested Timing Chain or Guides was causing the problem
The mad bumblebee isn't really a rattle, it's a definite buzz. Rattling makes me think there was probably an issue with oil pressure to the timing cover that was causing weak tension, allowing the chains to slap. This could have resulted from local sludge buildup or a baked o-ring inside the timing cover in the wake of your overheating episode. The passages into the cover are small, so any amount of clogging or any leaking seal will compromise pressure to both the tensioner and the phasers. Slapping chains generate tremendous back-and-forth inertia with changes in engine speed and phaser position, so at some point an acceleration or deceleration probably caught the cam and main chains with disparate inertial loads and forcibly jumped the cam chain.
I'm impressed with your knowledge...thanks very much~

Guess i'll start calling local junk yards...see what i can sell this thing for...
~


.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:47 am

You're most welcome. There are tons of good used VQ's out there in the $1000 range if the rest of the car is worth saving.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:51 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:47 am
You're most welcome. There are tons of good used VQ's out there in the $1000 range if the rest of the car is worth saving.
Ya Know...i'm not sure what's going on...but the USED CAR MARKET is Booming~
I'll have to research it...and see if putting a rebuilt motor is best.

Everything else on the car works great!

:bigthumb:

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:01 am

Balkins wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:51 am
Ya Know...i'm not sure what's going on...but the USED CAR MARKET is Booming~
I'll have to research it...and see if putting a rebuilt motor is best.
The boom won't last, it's mainly because new car inventory is shrinking rapidly because of semiconductor shortages. Can't build cars without car computers, and it's hitting everybody. We're down 100 new units from normal at our dealership and still shrinking. That makes used cars more valuable too, because everyone is hungry for trades to have something on the lot. The shortage will be around till at least the fall, but I don't think it will last far beyond that.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:13 am

VStar650CL wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:01 am
Balkins wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:51 am
Ya Know...i'm not sure what's going on...but the USED CAR MARKET is Booming~
I'll have to research it...and see if putting a rebuilt motor is best.
The boom won't last, it's mainly because new car inventory is shrinking rapidly because of semiconductor shortages. Can't build cars without car computers, and it's hitting everybody. We're down 100 new units from normal at our dealership and still shrinking. That makes used cars more valuable too, because everyone is hungry for trades to have something on the lot. The shortage will be around till at least the fall, but I don't think it will last far beyond that.
What makes you think the SC market will change by the Fall (everything i've read says Next Yr 2022)???

...got some insight you can share?

.

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:04 am

Balkins wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:13 am
What makes you think the SC market will change by the Fall (everything i've read says Next Yr 2022)???

...got some insight you can share?
I use a ton of small-bore microcontrollers in my side business, plus all manner of other electronic components. Fresh delivery for most of the backed-up componentry looks like Oct~Nov from most major silicon sources. They're all balls to the wall and putting on extra capacity in places (like here) where COVID is effectively over, so I expect a good deal of those deliveries will actually be early. It will take a little time for that to migrate upstream to the car factories, but only a little. The whole industry is used to coping with quick-turn supply issues, this is just more widespread than the average shortage.

Based on that, I think things will likely be normalizing by late fall or early winter. For now the only sector that seems to be getting worse is wire-wound (things like spark coils and power resistors) because probably half of that comes out of India, but there's a lot of idle winding equipment here and in the EU and I don't think that shortage will last long either.

Balkins
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:49 pm
Car: 2003 Nissan Maxima

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby Balkins » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:44 am

Its Really Dumbfounding; "How dependent we are" on foreign biz to make production.

I'm building a DT computer, as you know, prices have skyrocketed for all Cards

OH well...;)

User avatar
VStar650CL
Posts: 2002
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:25 pm
Car: 2013 Nissan Altima 2.5 SL
2004 Nissan Altima 2.5 S

Re: Bad Timing Chain JOB....???

Postby VStar650CL » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:06 am

Balkins wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:44 am
Its Really Dumbfounding; "How dependent we are" on foreign biz to make production.

I'm building a DT computer, as you know, prices have skyrocketed for all Cards

OH well...;)
I think we've become terminally stupid as a country. Thank 5 straight administrations of "Big Business Elitist" government with one exception, and now we're dumb enough to return to what we know doesn't work. Even Bush the elder was no friend of small business, while $100M "mom and pop" industries flourished all over Taiwan, Korea, India and others. Reagan was the last one to really understand it, along with (since this ain't the Politics section) he who shall remain nameless. Somehow nothing has changed a bit.


Return to “Maxima Forum & I30 / I35 Forum”