84 Turbo Fuel problem. Not starting. Ran codes. Injector problems?

[Kronic_Chronicles]

Drove the car to get my intake piping done, and the car ran out of gas. Now I can't get it to start again. Starts on ether, and checked the coil and plug wires so I know its not a spark problem. The pump primes and runs, filter is new along with lines. I checked for pressure after the filter, along with at the fuel pressure regulator, and i have pressure there, but still won't start.

I pulled parts off my wrecked 86 and started replacing stuff. Replaced coil, tps, fpr, crank angle sensor. Still wouldn't run. So I can codes, and got 8:

11 - Crank Angle Sensor12 - Mass Air Sensor13 - Cylinder Head Temp Sensor14 - Speed Sensor (speedo cable broke so thats obvious)23 - Throttle Valve Switch24 - Neutral Safety Switch (assuming since I can start the car without pushing the clutch in, that this was failed and I don't plan on fixing it lol)31 - Air Conditioning (removed so go figure)41 - Fuel Temp Sensor

The car had a distributor in the hatch when I bought it, so obviously it had been changed at least once. I swapped between the one on the car, the one that was in the car, and the one in the wrecked car multiple times. Advanced and retarded the timing little by little with each with no changes in codes or performance.

Maf has chalk writing on it so I'm assuming its from a junk yard. I swapped the tps with the one on the wrecked car last week and it appeared to help. Fuel temp sensor broke on the fpr from the wrecked car, so I swapped the sensor from the turbo car into the fpr on the wrecked car when swapping. And I have not touched the CHTS. I should mention that I'm running a TD05H 16G and have multiple vacuum leaks, but the car would start up with these problems.

I took a test light to the injectors (has had the injector service campaign done sometime in the past, with a terrible wiring job too). BOTH the red and the green wires tested as hot wires. Tested the wires on the wrecked car, and the red wire was hot but the green was not. (Also, the hot wires were on with the key off AND on, is this supposed to be?) I cut the harness from the injectors and tested the section between the ecu and the cut. Only the red wire was hot, and no longer was the green wire hot.

I cut the jumbled wire mess apart to check for shorts, and none. Tested each injector. I hooked up the red wire from the injector to a power source, and only hooked the green wire from the plug to my test light. As soon as I applied power to the red wire, the green wire suddenly had power too. In case of faulty or shorted plugs, I cut one injector plug harness from the junk yard (that tested fine) and did the same test, having the same results.

All 6 of my injectors test the same, when power is applied to one side the other side becomes powered too. I'm assuming they are all bad. I can't figure out what the hell would cause this problem! I don't believe my ecu would be bad...cause half of the codes that it threw are accurate and it didn't throw codes for other problems I have addressed and fixed recently. But I'm worried about buying new injectors and having them fry too.

Any ideas of what could cause this and what I should check and/or do to prevent this from happening in the future? Out of precaution, I plan on replacing all fuses, relays, and fusible links.

[Kronic_Chronicles]

And before anyone flames me for it, yes I have searched. I cannot find any info on injectors shorting out and causing this problem. Also looked into just how an injector works to see if I could come to any conclusion myself. Found nothing on 3ZC, Google, HybridZ, Z31.com, Redz31.net, Nico...nothing other than in my garage.

[evildky]

sounds liek you are going about things wrong

step one would be to fix the known vac leaks, trying to find an unknown problem while dealing with a known problem just complicates the process

(fwiw, I'm pretty sure the tdo5h is smaller than the stock T3)

you are makign some wrong assumptions about the injectors, they work on saturated voltage, much liek the ignition coil, they shoould show voltage on both sides, it's the square wave trigger signal that you need to look for and that requires an oscilator or logic probe or other sophisticated testing tools

cas code certainly points to the distributor, which has 2 optical triggers, a 1 degree trigger and a 60 degree, they also use a 5 volt square wave signal

mas testing is outlined in the fsm, chts will cause the engine to flood to the point that the car will not run! you have to have this hooked up and working or the car will not run

neutral saftey swithc, nto clutch saftey swithc, was the car originally an automatic?

fuel temp sensor will cause only a slightly rich condition, but coupled wiht the chts way too much fuel

[Kronic_Chronicles]

Ok, so my assumption on the injectors is wrong. Thank you for informing me on how they should work. But the CHTS should not be the problem. I can keep the car running on ether as long as I constantly spray it. I'm getting NO fuel into the cylinders. I have fuel pressure on both ends of the fuel rails. I'll get a gauge to test and make sure its at least 30+ psi.

I do agree that it makes it hard to fix problems with other problems not fixed...but that car ran all week with the same vacuum leaks, using that dizzy, tps, maf, chts, and fts. Aye...I just don't get how it ran before but don't now

(And if I remember correctly, the TD05H flows just a lil more than the T3? It supposedly to spool up faster than the stock T3 because of wheel designs. And I know its good for 25 psi before it starts to lose efficiency, which is more than I plan on running. The stock turbo had eaten itself up, and I had the mitsu turbo from a junkyard run. $35 for turbo, $50 for rebuild kit, $20 for flange adapter. Cheap enough repairs for me, and its unique )
Modified by Kronic_Chronicles at 6:54 AM 2/19/2010

[Kronic_Chronicles]

Injectors checked out good resistance wise. The voltage going to them wasn't 12V...or my meter is screwed. Read anywhere from 9-20V. Anyway...after testing everything out and getting no where, I swapped ECUs with one from my wrecked car (86/87 NA). I got the car to fire up but wouldnt stay running. Figured this is because of using an NA computer and not a turbo computer. Sound like the ecu is fried is my assumption. Sound accurate?

[evildky]

the chts code needs to be delt with, if it's nto the sensor or wiring then it's in the ecu and can and will flood the engine if everythign else is workign as it should

the ecu swap likely also flooded the car as it was sending idle pulse widths to match the smaller n/a injectors, so yes it is quite possible that the ecu is bad, did you check for codes on the n/a ecu?

[Kronic_Chronicles]

the chts code needs to be delt with, if it's nto the sensor or wiring then it's in the ecu and can and will flood the engine if everythign else is workign as it should

the ecu swap likely also flooded the car as it was sending idle pulse widths to match the smaller n/a injectors, so yes it is quite possible that the ecu is bad, did you check for codes on the n/a ecu?

I do agree the chts needs to be dealt with. But as far as I understand it, with the chts and the fts, it would add more fuel...causing it to flood. The injectors were not opening up so that wasnt the current problem. Before the car just up and died, it was running rich and I planned on replacing the chts.

As for the ecu flooding it...i doubt that is the case, but I've already been wrong on my assumption on how the injectors work, so it could have. The engine wouldnt make more than two or three rotations before quitting. My assumption would be that it wasnt enough fuel, running too lean. Or having most of the sensors not functioning properly that it wouldnt run, but it did attempt to fire with the na ecu. I dont know enough about the difference in pulses between a turbo and na ecu, or the differences between the years of ecus.

I attempted to run codes on the na ecu...and im stumped. Instead of red light flashing, then green light flashing, both lights flashed. One slow, then two fast (12). One slow, then three fast (13). Then it got weird....three fast flashes, pause, four fast flashes, pause, five fast flashes, pause. Two slow, three fast (23). Two slow, four fast (24). Then JUST the green light...and then it started over again. I remember reading something in my chiltons about fast and slow flashing for reading codes so thats where I'm guessing my code numbers from, but I dont understand why it had the 3, 4, and 5...then just the green light.

Also pulled the upper plenum just for the hell of it (outta frustration, needed to tear somethin apart). The injector tips were a dark brown. Removed the o rings and under the rings it was gray. And it appeared that either there was some buildup on the tips (hard, did not knock off), or the tips started melting.

Sourcing new injectors now and researching ecu options. piggyback wont work without a working ecu (AZ's help) so im looking at a chipped one, stand alone, or making some form of hybrid. Read about some guy using a dsm ecu with dsmlink on his s14 sr20 and running e85...may look into somethin like that or an M30 ecu, but cant find any information online about wiring up the consult and if the m30 ecu is compatible without any mods other than consult and tune.

[Kronic_Chronicles]

Ok...so opening the 88 fsm, it has alot more information than my fsm for my 84. Problem is I only have fsm for 84, 85, and 88. My na ecu is from a lemon car of mixed zenki and kouki parts, so I'm not sure what is 86 and what is 87 on it. The 88 fsm goes into more detail on problem solving but I'm still confused on the diagnostics reading on the kouki models.

Was told the 86 na ecu won't work on an 84t, but mentioned the difference in o2 sensors. Is that the only main difference, besides fuel maps and other obvious electronic accessories in the engine bay that the turbo has (and shall be removed).

And one thing I forgot to mention, the turbo car is a cali car if it makes any difference.
Modified by Kronic_Chronicles at 1:22 AM 2/20/2010

[AZ-ZBum]

You can download the other FSMs from http://www.xenonz31.com. There are also some other reference materials that might help (reference page).