3rd kind of "race line"?

All over the world, Nissan products are involved in road racing, track days, time attack and autocross.
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poshatch
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so most of use are familiar with the traditional racing line as well as the early exit approach or late apexing i guess is what its called

but a thought had occured to me before and a friend brought it up last night and i was thinking maybe id share the idea with you all

i personally dont think this line would be affective except in tight and lower speed courses where front grip is still available

essentially...its inducing a small snap oversteer, but unlike drifting where the oversteer is carried threw the arch, or countersteering to counter the oversteer to maintain the same direction orrigional direction...

you straighten out the oversteer with the wheels pointing in the direction you want to be going, making the exit alot closer to the inside of the turn

sort of like what rally people do on tight turns with the e brake

oppinions?


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Philipio
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On a road course, steering with the throttle is just another tool to fine tune your turn. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying, but if it is, that's just part of driving.

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mattblancarte
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This is nonsense.

I can assure you, you have a 0% chance of coming up with new/effective techniques to offer to the performance driving community.

Less time dreaming up superficial driving concepts. More time researching, more seat time, more instruction time.

P.S. It's a stretch to assume that most people on this board are truly experienced with performance driving.

EDIT: That was before you sneaky snakes moved this thread from 240gen to the road racing forum.
Modified by mattblancarte at 1:32 PM 4/1/2010

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poshatch
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no, not exactly

im not super experienced with anything but i understand the mild dynamics of driving

it has to do with the line, and i was giving the example of the steering input

its almost like combining the traditional line and late apexing line

normally to follow this line it would induce alot of understeer and wouldnt be effective if it wernt for the snap oversteer

let me see if i can reword

so lets say that there are 2 approaches to following the traditional line, driving threw it as fast as possible balancing steering and throttle which is the idea, and then drifting the whole way threw

drifting threw is of course way slower, but if on the entrance, oversteer is initiated wtih minimal angle and since you are entering the corner at an angle, the cars nose faces the exit point faster than it would if the car were in neutral steer, straightening the wheels would maintain speed threw the turn but allow the car to come out of the turn in a much closer and sharper arch than the traditional line

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poshatch
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and im not sure that i said i was trying to come up with some new revolutionary line

it was just a thought, and i was asking oppinions on it

im not looking for praise, or if this is better than the lines already known, its just an idea and oppinions on it

no point in turning this into anything serious fellow niconaut

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troskinatior
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That already is a racing technique.I have a book and it says the intended slip angle for a grip car is about 2-8% and for drifting its 8-50%.

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mattblancarte
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Haha sorry for being a jerk. It's easy to do online sometimes, and you're intentions are in the right place anyways so I should be more helpful.

What you're describing is called slip angle. How you manage your car's slip angle at corner entry can absolutely effect corner speeds, and subsequently, overall lap times.

The amount of steering input required to properly manage slip can change based on entry point, speed, braking technique, desired line, traffic, etc.

I highly recommend you do more reading, and get more seat time. You're mixing up concepts such as the "racing line" with car control techniques.

The "snap" that you're talking about is no good, especially when you're to the point where you really care about lap times. Smooth is much faster than Slippery McSlidestyle driving.

On corner entry, a snap steer may very well do a quick load/unload on your suspension, causing momentary sliding and loss of time.

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mattblancarte
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troskinatior wrote:That already is a racing technique.I have a book and it says the intended slip angle for a grip car is about 2-8% and for drifting its 8-50%.
There you go.

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HoosierSX
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simply put; sliding the car is slower in any occasion involving a grippy surface. now on gravel and other slippery surfaces, rotating the chassis can be faster. faster times (on grippy surfaces) are all about traction, PERIOD


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poshatch
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yea all makes sense to me

i was just a bit curious, cause my friend said that some people he knows does this in the mountains and that its faster

i didnt think so because from everything ive read, losing any grip is bad, and oversteer slows the car down more so it wouldnt be ideal threw a turn

good to get input on the matter, probably end thread

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DuckyD
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Too lazy to read through everyone's replies, but that technique is already used to get the car to turn-in.

You can trail-brake (start your turn-in towards the end of the braking point, while the rear-end is still light to cause the back to come around easily for you). So trail-braking leads to greater slip angle and your front tires aren't doing as much of the work.

On a track like Sebring which is nice and flat, it feels amazing to be hard on the brakes, start the turn in, the back feels loose but controlled, and just steer through the turn.

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sr20goofus
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FWD guys rotate cars in tighter low speed corners so they can stay on the throttle longer and just pull the rear behind them. RWD guys slide slightly but rotating when a smoother approach can be taken will reduce momentum. In a passing situation i have rotated my rear to take an inside line against a slower car, but not as a racing line.

Taking away from the smooth approach just makes you slower, if all else fails go out and try it at the track and you be the judge of what actually feels faster. This is sort of like staying in 3rd gear at higher rpm because the cars seems to accelerate faster, when your just limiting speed by staying in a lower gear, forcing a limit on speed is what im getting at.

StephenG
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I believe what you are trying to get at is called "feint motion" and it is a drifting technique. Its a combination of late braking and weight transfer to get the rear wheels loose without locking them or powering over. Very little angle, very little opposite lock if done really well. You end up steering completely with the throttle and the motions you make entering the turn.

Its simply an aspect of car control and has very specific applications. With a nice stiff chassis and good lift off oversteer, its a great way to drift in switch backs, but its very impractical to apply that to big circuits.

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PEZi
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poshatch wrote:
essentially...its inducing a small snap oversteer, but unlike drifting where the oversteer is carried threw the arch, or countersteering to counter the oversteer to maintain the same direction orrigional direction...
i do something very similar when i drive ST classed civics in autocross... left foot trail braking is what i do... turn in, left foot brake, snap oversteer, back on the gas and pull out of the turn... doing this, i can take a turn faster in a FWD '89 honda civic than any rear wheel drive car in tight situations (if the cars are comparable and on the same tires***)

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poshatch
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i havnt checked this thing in awhile but you guys were much nicer than zilvia!

those people just straight called me a fool for thinking about this situation and asking for some insight on it

the concept does make a slight bit of sense but for the right occasion of course thanks for everybodys input

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DuckyD
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poshatch wrote:i havnt checked this thing in awhile but you guys were much nicer than zilvia!
Why doesn't that surprise me :D

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sr20goofus
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This 3rd line is sounding less like a line and alot more like just a steering technique for auto-x and drifting.


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