350 z ats twin turbo wont start after mods

[aschleinig]

hi all I have replaced the pistons rods with a 8.5 compression pistons, installed titanium valves, new springs, titanium retainers, nismo cams, ats twin turbo's , the largest inter cooler, the largest aluminum radiator installed holly in line fuel pump[ capable up to 2500 hp fuel flow] with 5/8 fuel lines with adjustable pressure regulators, also with a 600 cc injectors. also rebuilt the transmission with twin disc ceramic clutch dual 2.5 inch exhaust. now the engine starts runs with the ats piggy back computer but this setup only give 330 hp at the rear wheel, with extremely high exhaust gas temperatures, 1600 f . now I have access to a programmer to program the factory computer so I can write my own fuel, timing table in the computer but until I ca not start the engine without the ats piggy back I ca- not program the computer . now I am fighting this for a while & i like to get some ideas . I have a snap on scanner so I can pull codes from a computer, now so far what I found out the injectors not getting signals when I am cranking the engine without the piggyback computer . as soon I connect the piggyback the engine will start . not easy but will start after 20-30 sec of cranking. I know it is rich so floods this is why is hard to stat with a piggyback . now the piggyback is just connects between the factory wiring & the computer . so any idea why the injectors not getting signals ? now when I have first started working on the car before I did all the work to it, this car was starting ,pruning just fine so ca- not be a ignition key issue. all sensors working fine . including cam - crank sensor. the engine will not fire at all. no fuel injector signal at all in factory setup. in pigi back setup I will get injector signal after 5 sec of cranking . now I was thinking ; the fuel pump just getting power of from one external relay controlled by the original fuel pump relay. any one knows if the computer is speed controlling the original fuel pump setup ,so the computer has to see a load on the fuel pump side, to let the injectors actuated ? looking at the wiring it is not the case but I only have the Mitchell so I don't know for sure . any idea ? I'm looking to get this thing to develop around 1200 hp after all . 330 hp is just plain sucks thank you Andy

[Retired Chief]

1200hp? Really? Is this a joke thread?

[evildky]

ok, your fuel injectors aren't going to feed 1200 hp, they will feed abotu 600 hp, you also didn't state what turbo's you are running as they also will dictate how much hp you can make, most off the shelf kits are only good for aroun 500hp, and if you want to run in those levels I recomend against reprogramming the stock ecu, and I also recomend against the piggy back, if you want to run 600 hp and above, stand alone is the only way to go, and the super high egt's implies that the turbo's are too small and can not move the air out fast enough

back to starting the car, the piggy back generally interupts signlas form the sensors on their way in or out of the ecu, so if you unplug the piggy back without returning the wiring to stock you are essentially runnign with sensors unplugged, if you want to get rid of the piggy back, return the wiring to stock, and if you have some sort of zemulator or whatever to remap the stock ecu you can change the req fuel setting to reflect he larger injectors and that should keep you from flooding when cranking

[aschleinig]

thank you for your input but sadly you did must miss lead you. i have no problems with a flooding. as i stated i have no injector signal when the car is in stock wiring. so i ca- not start the car because the engine not getting any fuel. the flooding happens with the piggy back. any way it is not a joke. now for egt temps. the egt temp is based on the fuel air ratio what the engine in hails it. now if yo have to much air[ not a small turbo issue] not enough fuel[ piggy back issue] then the engine runs lean what is also show's on the o2 sensors. the 1200 hp is the maximum hp what the engine can handle withouth addition mods. . now in this con fig i know i ca- not go over 750 hp. yes the injectors is to small, but now the engine only puts out 330 hp not even close to 500 nor 600. fuel flow for the injectors given with a set fuel pressure. i can go with the current setup up to 120 psi pressure maintaining fuel flow. the fuel pump capable supporting a big v 8 at 2500 hp this fuel pump alone was 800 bucks plus 150 bucks the pressure regulator. the fuel lines is 5/8 lines the return line is 1/2 inch . sorry i did not start this yesterday. i was involved in the past 18 years in Ron Smith drag racing car so i have some idea what I'm talking about. the factory ECU is capable for all the fuel delivery so I'm not worried about that. if i found it is not enough then i will think about changing it to an EMS 8860. but as you guys already know the 8860 dose not handle the fly by wire throttle, the asc, what i like to keep. sorry im not knowing at all type of guy but usually i know what I'm talking about. so any way i need to make the car start with the factory computer & this is what I'm looking to get down. any one with an idea? the car run before the engine build. now the only electrical change in the wiring is the fuel pump setup. the factory ECU any one knows is a feedback type setup? so the ECU controls the speed of the fuel pump? any one knows this? i have full diagnostic gauges on board in the car so i always know air - fuel ratio, fuel pressure, EGT temp, coolant pressure, boost pressure. so i well aware what is happening inside the engine.But it is all irrevalent now because i ca- not start the engine in factory con fig. please help do not bash me. i have enough experience when i will come to the point when the turbo's injectors not enough i will change then to a bigger one, or modify what ever i need to make the engine run right. any one have any idea?
Modified by aschleinig at 12:21 PM 10/27/2008

[aschleinig]

der sir i have no time for jokes. it is not really professional. any way if you like to see pictures i can post some so you can see im not a bul****t type persone. im 44 year old so i dont get a kick from writing lies i write facts, not fictions. Andy

[rmezz13]

yes, true, but you don't know how to type, don't know what your doing, and 1200 hp is unrealistic with this engine, there fore this is classified as a joke. You will not get a serious answer here... sorry. And what is the "ATS" twin turbo set? Do you mean "APS"?

[MySXisSlowerThanUrs]

Hey check your exhaust bearings! sometimes they come loose and block the exhaust to breath and wont start!Ive also heard that if you run low or your out of blinker fluid you car wont start!

[JETPILOT]

First.... please use paragraphs so it's easier to read. My eyes are hurtin.

From what I am seeing you haven't done your research.

Running reduced timing will surely cause high egt's. EGT's are not solely dependant on AFR.

Unless you have the APS Extreme twin turbo kit on the car your not going to see over 600whp on this car. You will need the APS Extreme and that won;t even get yout to 1200whp.

Your motor is a grenade wating to happen. You need a proper EMS. What piggyback are you using? For the type of power your looking for a standalone like the Haltech, Motec, or FCOn are your only options. The UTEC will only get yo uto about 600WHP and ashould be the minimum EMS for what your considering. The car should be running on a MAP sensor and not MAF.

Do you have a rising rate return fuel system? If not you will fail pretty quickly. You fuel pressures will be unstable as RPM's rise to the point you will run out of fuel.

The stock ECU will not run 600 injectors. Are they high impedance or low impedance?

1200whp without a sleeved block? Not going to happen.

I'd like to see a complete build sheet on this car.
Modified by JETPILOT at 3:29 PM 10/27/2008

[BlackSmoke]

I'd like to see a complete build sheet on this car.

Modified by JETPILOT at 3:29 PM 10/27/2008

Wont happen JET

[aschleinig]

hi thank you all , now i still have not received any answer for my question. i just like to start the engine without the piggy back , so please think on the wont start not on the rest of the problems what is not a consideration yet. i have installed back the factory injectors so it is now in stock configuration except the fuel pump setup. I currently out of ideas. i don't care if the engine will develop 100 hp now but i like to see it runing with the factory setup. i care less about anything else. think the engine is stock except twin turbo's inter cooler, plus a big fuel pump. no other stuff. now you right APS-350ZTTS01 with the supplied piggyback what I'm talking about . now i don't care if you guy saying the engine will not run right at off throttle i just need to have the engine run at idle speed. nothing more. start run at idle . the rest is a future problem. just for start, run . anything else un important now. please explain how can i make paragraph type of writing so you can read it easier, thank you for the help. i don't know nothing but i willing to learn. so please help me get to started learning how to make this engine setup start without the supplied additional computer. aps wont help they say nothing just saying use the system what i don't like. but please do net get in this right now. i need to make it start without the aps computer. . Andy http://www.vividracing.com/cat....html this is the fuel pump what i used http://www.magnumforce.com/sto...&Page= the camshafts http://www.grdstore.com/nismo-....html the valves http://www.slowboyracing.com/e...age=1 the head studs http://www.uniqueautosports.co...s.jpg the main studs http://www.uniqueautosports.co...s.jpg the clutch http://www.autocarparts.com/part/1760/519/ the pistons http://www.cimotorsports.net/m....html the connecting rodshttp://www.vividracing.com/catalog/cosworth-fo ... 19131.html i will make some pictures tomorrow
Modified by aschleinig at 11:57 PM 10/29/2008

[rmezz13]

This is from the FSM for a 2006 coupe....http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/350Z/coupe/2006/sc.pdf

and here is the FSM linkhttp://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/350Z/

and here is where the FSM link is foundhttp://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/344626

and here is where that thread is found that has the FSM link (at the top)zeroforum?id=168

good luck sir...

[evildky]

stock block, yeah 600 whp before the block goes

anyhow, getting the car running, is the pump coming on? are the injectors firing? are the coil packs firing? are the cams timed propery to the crank?

[C-Kwik]

Piggy-back computers work by intercepting a signal and providing one of its own. Most cimply intercept the airflow signal. Others will intercept the fuel-injector signals as well. If you simply disconnect the piggy-back, you will leave at least one open circuit. To properly remove a piggy-back, you must reconnect the factory wiring correctly. Perhaps you've done this, but it didn't sound like it.

As for writing paragraphs, simply separate each point in your topic into separate blocks using the Enter key. See how I spoke about a potential solution in the paragraph above, but this new topic gets its own block? This helps not only in helping the reader to visually identify when you've changed topics, but also prevents the difficulty associated with trying to keep your eyes flowing on a page. A giant block of text becomes harder to distinguish as the relative distance from either the top or bottom of the paragraph becomes harder to keep track of.

If separating by topic or points isn't clear enough, just press the enter button every 3-5 sentences and start typing again. It will at least make it a lot easier on the eyes.

[RemixZ]

Hey check your exhaust bearings! sometimes they come loose and block the exhaust to breath and wont start!Ive also heard that if you run low or your out of blinker fluid you car wont start!

While you're at it why dont you lube up your CAI needlebearings and bypass your AC and charge it up with nitrous and connect it to your exhaust bearings cartridge while replacing you blinker fluid with mayonaise, cause MAYO make everything great... Make sure to use Best Food since its SAE weight is far superior to KRAFT Mayonaise....Hell just replace all your fluids with the stuff!

[aschleinig]

Hi. thank you all for the lots of info . any way one more time; the car runs drives with the aps piggy back. as soon i connect everything i mean everything as the factory setup ecept the fuel pump , the car wont start . I GET NO INJECTOR SIGNAL !!!!!! THE FUEL PUMP RUNS. WHY I GET NO INJECTOR SIGNAL IN THE FACTOORY SETUP? ANY ONE WITH AN IDEA? i like to know if the factory computer controlling the fuel pump with a feedback system so the computer know when the pump loaded up or developing fuel pressure, because higher the pressure goes more power the pump need . if this is the case this is could be why the injectors not getting signal? i have Michelle wiring diagrams but on that this is not the way the pump setup according to Michelle. where can i found the factory wiring diagram?

In my fuel pump setup what im using the computer have no way to know how much power the pump drawing. i connected the additional fuel pump relay trigger wire to the original fuel pump positive wires.

when the old fuel pump wires gets hot the new relay gets triggered what is let power to the new monster fuel pump. this pump draws 30 amps when is maxed out. so i ca- not connect this pump to the original wires. the original pump i think draw max 5 amps.

thank you ANDY

[evildky]

are the injectors not getting their power supply or the trigger signal which I believe is still gonna be a square wave? and have you checked for the power and trigger signal at the ecu as well as at the terminals?