200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

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Ajax
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200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:36 am

Image
Image

I'm not even going to waste time building up the thread- there's ^^^ the dyno. I don't have a proper scanner to get a pdf right now, so this cell phone pic will have to do.
1st of all- Huge thanks to Chase & Ian, AMS, Elite Motorsports, DB Performance, and everyone else who's lent a hand or advice on this project. Its taken a long time, and my goal was finally reached. I only wish I could have gotten it done earlier in the year so I could do more than put the car in storage for the winter. :frown:
But let's talk in the meantime. I now laugh at the term "torque curve"- I have a torque line. It idles beautifully with just a little lope, and sounds like a mini V8 with the deep tone from the BRM. I still need to finish up some interior stuff- its a bit loud in the cabin right now, but it sounds beautiful- I can't wait to get it into one of the local tunnels and let loose- I love that noise.
So if you're not familiar and want to know what all is in there, here's a quick rundown:
2.65L stroked KA, 10.5:1 comp, BC cams, AMS ported head, Xcessive intake, custom header, AEM management.
Expensive? Yes. So what? F you and your turbo- I have a torque line :chuckle:
I'll get some more pictures when I winterize this next week, though it hasn't changed much in terms of looks since my header thread.
Later all!
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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby costa_rican13 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:54 am

awesome! but too much money for a poor college kid like myself.. :(

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:10 pm

Wow!
Which BC cams did you go with? Looks like stage 2 maybe.

ATI dampener on that sucker?

Im guessing the BC stroker kit along with 91.5mm bore?

AEM engine management whoa pullin out the wallet im in love tho! Im trying to make some na power this time too just on a major budget. Link to your custom header thead!!!!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:48 am

post6238094.html#p6238094
Yes, I think stage 2. It actually uses a Fisher damper, which I'm not sure you can get anymore. And yes, it was bored out- I forget the exact bore- 91 maybe? essentially 2.65L. I should have gone with the AEM originally anyway- would have been nice to compare OBX header vs custom header more directly

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby JDMice » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:49 am

If you dont mind I would like to know what you did to get that power from your motor. I have a motor siitng in my basement I want to build up and it seems you have achieved the 200WHP NA I'm looking for. If you dont mind sharing your secret email me at [email protected], My name is andrew.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby AZhitman » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:41 am

OK, wait - Let me get this straight - There's a BRM Exhaust on the FIRST 200whp NA kA?

Oh HELL YEAH.

NICELY DONE, sir!!!!

(Chase & Ian at AMS were AWESOME when I was building Project Vert - What a great resource!)

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:46 am

I actually have a few threads poking around in the archives here in the KA section, then the custom header link in the post before yours. Also brief list in the original post, but here's the general rundown:
BC stroker kit, 10.5:1 pistons, bored to 91mm? Harmonic damper to keep everything from shaking apart...
BC cams, AMS ported head.
Xcessive intake manifold, Q45 throttle body, MAP sensor, AEM computer, 370cc injectors.
custom header, 2.5" BRM exhaust
It's really not as much as you might think- It took me a long time because I had to rebuild twice due to a bad mechanic, and not having everything figured out at the beginning. Parts list could probably be had for under 6k if you can do the headers yourself. Then tuning. I don't really want to know how much money I've spent- now I need to focus on buying a house and revamping the tranny (no I will not do the 6speed...).

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:46 pm

Not to hate but why did you go with aem and not a prom tune. I realize aem is the "best" when trying to achieve every ounce of power possible just seems you should have made more? Maybe tuned on conservative side to make it streetable. Just seems like it would make more power since ive seen 160-170 dyno charts floating around with just bolt ons. Of course this may be just dyno differences.

On side note anyone ever thought of using block filler in a ka24de came across it other day....cement who knew...

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby ddgsxr504 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:06 pm

When is the header going for mass production and on sale man? Patent that s*** and sell'em. I would buy one!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:57 am

AZhitman wrote:OK, wait - Let me get this straight - There's a BRM Exhaust on the FIRST 200whp NA kA?

Oh HELL YEAH.

NICELY DONE, sir!!!!

(Chase & Ian at AMS were AWESOME when I was building Project Vert - What a great resource!)
Thanks Hitman! Actually, I was specifically thanking Chase (DJPantsSpecR) and our own FLatBlackIan for their help- not just technical help (because I needed a lot of it), but encouragement too- I had to bounce a lot of ideas around and they've always been helpful.
BTW, now that it runs smoothly, I'm hoping to take some road trip opportunities and my girlfriend really wants to go back to AZ- I'm loooking your way Greg!
Last edited by Ajax on Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:07 am

lexcrob wrote:Not to hate but why did you go with aem and not a prom tune. I realize aem is the "best" when trying to achieve every ounce of power possible just seems you should have made more? Maybe tuned on conservative side to make it streetable. Just seems like it would make more power since ive seen 160-170 dyno charts floating around with just bolt ons. Of course this may be just dyno differences.

On side note anyone ever thought of using block filler in a ka24de came across it other day....cement who knew...
I decided I didn't want to half-a** anymore- AEM would be the last ECU setup I'll need to use, and is commonly used. My instructions for tuning were "goal is 200hp, but if its not easy to drive, I won't want to drive it"
Going from 170hp to 200hp with a few custom pieces and tuning is actually quite a lot, if you think about it. Stock KAs put down 130 to the wheels or so- I've been able to increase that by 50% without true power adders- that's a hell of a lot for a NA 4 banger- the reason why 200hp has been the goal for a long time.


I'd love to mass produce this header for profit, except that it is quite custom to this engine- might not get good results on a more stockish engine. It would also need some work to really "finish" it for bolt-on status. cost of a low-production run of an updated design would probably run around 400-600 per unit- I doubt anyone would pay that (besides me)

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:53 am

Did you break out the degree wheel at all and dial in cams or fiddle with some cam gears and dyno time? Im assuming you dropped in to BC specs and in that case there is probly power to be made there. Seeing that OEM intake and exhaust stock valve lift is nearly identical my assumption is that nissan did this for an accountant solution if you will. My theory is that besides the obvious not being able to take advantage of high lift cams by reving high. Cam overlap and scavanging and all that jazz is where lots of power potential is yet to be found.

I've been reading ......ill try to get some concret answers in my build. Thats the plan at least again awesome build finally a documented 200hp record breaker.

On a side note i thought the BC stroker kit was discontinued? Maybe have to call for it and a price? How bout adding up the $ of the build aem set up/machine work**/where tuned/links to aftermarket. This should could really help everyone see what it actually takes to make it happen resolving the popular questions "whats it take" and "is it possible".

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:31 pm

I do have adjustable JWT cam gears, though I don't think anything was done but to spec them out. Down the road, I may talk to AMS again, as they will be more familiar with those cams than the guys who tuned the AEM. But I gotta focus on other things now.
Even if the stroker kit was discontinued, they may still have a few lying around (it does appear to still be offered on their site).
$$$ good lord, I spent so much money on missteps with this build, I don't really want to think about it. If I had done all of this at once, built at AMS, it would probably have cost close to 10k. I know that's more than most any other 240 owner would spend on a KA- what's scary is that I know I've spent more than that (Funny, if the original mechanic hadn't screwed the pooch on the first rebuild, this never would have happened and I'd have a lot more money). But I love this car, and it certainly is unique.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby asoomal » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:51 pm

JWT C78.

/end thread.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:56 pm

^ sounds like $ but indeed looks very promising ill await third party dyno results!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby asoomal » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:57 pm

Crazy lift for a bucket in cam head, you'll need VQ35HR followers though. They have the DLC coating on them.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:01 am

Not sure how those camshafts would /end thread.
certainly interesting- 280/.440, 288/.480 is indeed bigger than my BC cams (I'm starting to think they were V3 cams)- 272/.401. I wonder what kind of idle quality/street-ablility those would have. I certainly have the ECU to handle such a profile if I were to try a new design in the future- my old engine management probably would have been a disaster trying to manage for those. Although, I probably wouldn't try them as I really don't want to spend all the extra money for the extra required equipment, as well as just making sure I've got piston-valve clearance.
Also, I'm pretty happy with the power I've got. Too bad I have to wait until spring to use the car again.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:12 am

Image
here's a scanned copy of the dyno, finally.
Happy New Year!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Razi » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:16 pm

Niiice

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby MellowZ32 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:20 pm

video is a must!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby nismofly » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:54 am

Ill be interested to see how it likes being driven on street, 200 rwhp is easy with race engines but without deep deep pockets and a trailer to get it to the track and back obviously your setup is something more to aim for.

Here's a video of a race car with .480 lift cams, they were custom at the time but the C78 is basically a production version of the same thing. He was making right around your power level last year, I think it makes around 215 now.

http://vimeo.com/13977757

This car was actually just featured in modified (again, was in SCC when he had a ka-t), but for quick idea it's 10:1 compression, tiny clutch (nowhere close to streetable), xcessive intake mani, the cams, Q45 TB, header, loud exhaust, and race gas.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby AZhitman » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:08 am

Come on out anytime, buddy - We'd be glad to show you around the state. :)

See, this is the problem with the "Super Street" and "GT5" generation - They think horsepower is easily available and incrementally increased through bolt-ons. The thinking of "well, a header adds 15 hp, and an intake adds 5 and bumping the timing adds 7, so I've gone from 130 to 157 omg!" is totally flawed.

Truth be told, there's a very good reason there's not been any streetable confirmed 200whp n/a KA's built thus far - it's expensive, requires a LOT of time and effort and testing, with complete attention to detail - it's easier to throw a few bolt-ons at it and claim you're making big power.

I'd LOVE to drive this car - I'm a huge fan of n/a power, and a 200whp S-chassis without turbo lag is a fun, fun ride. :)

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:06 am

AZhitman wrote:See, this is the problem with the "Super Street" and "GT5" generation - They think horsepower is easily available and incrementally increased through bolt-ons. The thinking of "well, a header adds 15 hp, and an intake adds 5 and bumping the timing adds 7, so I've gone from 130 to 157 omg!" is totally flawed.

Truth be told, there's a very good reason there's not been any streetable confirmed 200whp n/a KA's built thus far - it's expensive, requires a LOT of time and effort and testing, with complete attention to detail - it's easier to throw a few bolt-ons at it and claim you're making big power.

I'd LOVE to drive this car - I'm a huge fan of n/a power, and a 200whp S-chassis without turbo lag is a fun, fun ride. :)
Truth.
Greg, I normally don't let others drive my car, but you're no ordinary person- whenever we meet, you can take her for a spin.

As for my streetability- its very streetable. Starts and idles like a champ. The exhaust drones a bit with sustained speeds, but that might be more an effect of not having anything separating the hatch and the cabin (need to modify my parcel shelf for the cross brace). I need a new clutch soon, but the SPEC is still holding okay.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby kylethestyle » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:34 pm

I think we all would like a link to all your build threads that got you to this point. Maybe make a sticky out of it? Those threads should be a very interesting read to those looking for similar results. :)

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:22 pm

Super Street 2012 MAR. and FEB. did have some pretty good info for ka power! BC stage ones degreeing cams and even results of the ever popular 248 hype. I just think its funny guys around here those bolt on braggers. Well they keep the aftermarket industry going i suppose.

For those that wont take a peek they made 153/152... BC stage 1 with cam gears/aem intake/big exhaust/dc header-AEM tune although it only extracted like 5hp......1400$ eh i guess it paves way to further mods HOPEFULLY they continue.

I plan on running the same set up but just got it rebuilt bored .20 over. (deck and head height are right at the minimum FSM spec.)


I think well see more 200hp ka24de very very soon aftermarket will catch on!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 pm

By aftermarket will catch on take a look at the development of headers for the bseries and the power gains as aftermarket put in more R&D. I would love a link on that HEADER build!!!!!!!!!



I say you strap a supercharger on it with methanol injection :facepalm:

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:41 am

lexcrob wrote:I think well see more 200hp ka24de very very soon aftermarket will catch on!
I highly doubt that. Very few people are willing to do the work necessary for 200whp all motor on these engines. Not while turbo kits and swaps are so prevalent, and to be bluntly honest- easier. It would not surprise me if this engine of mine stays the only pump gas 200whp NA KA forever- not that I'm trying to brag or anything, I just don't think there are many people inthe world willing to put in the time and cash to make this work- that either makes me singularly awesome or singularly stupid...
I'll try to dig up all my old threads and link them in the next week.

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby lexcrob » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:36 pm

I hope your very wrong that it takes that much money to hit 200hp NA. Ill let you know what mine throws down for shur im about to begin final assembly. The last thing im trying to find is a thin headgasket for a tiny extra bump in compression. (im aware of cam timing effects) cylinder and block height are both at the minimum spec by the FSM combined with .20 over bore. Im trying to work some porting magic here what ball park of views on that subject!

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby SxMachine » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:49 pm

1st off, awesome.
2nd I've never seen nor heard a 200hp na ka in action...how about some vids?

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Re: 200whp NAKA, pump gas. DONE.

Postby Ajax » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:38 am

In storage until April- MN winter...


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