Sijoko,
Further to your email to me, I advise that my first goal is to acheive maximum (safe & durable) performance with a stock internaled 1994 VH45DE.
I have a second 1990 engine that I plan to one day do an engine build up on and swap engines.
To my knowledge there are no decompressed forged pistons available for the VH45DE at present.
I am waiting to see what happens with the next generation of Nissan V8's, as the new GTR Skyline (which will have a V8 in export models) is likley to have a plethura of aftermarket goodies, including low compression forged pistons, oil squirters ect.
For now, I am focusing on getting my Transmission and tuning on deceleartion sorted out.
Regards
AGM
Forged pistons - VH45DE
-
sijoko
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:54 am
- Car: Black 1994 Infiniti Q45 Turbo, Pearl White 2014 Maxima Sport
- Contact:
AGM,
Thanks for your reply. I hope that some company will begin supporting the VH45DE. But if not, custom parts would be worth it.
This engine looks like it has tremendous potential. The only things that I would do are: 1) Install lower compression (9 to 1) forged pistons with thermal coating. 2) Have the block modified for piston oil sprayers. (This might not even be necessary with an upgraded cooling system and a good oil cooling setup.)
I think that with these modifications and proper tuning, the VH can handle a fair amount of boost. Maybe around, 14-16 psi. That would net around 500-550 hp easily.
Maybe, more of the members will get bit with the performance bug and we will have the next 4 door Supra on our hands. But then again, I like driving something that most people don't know much about.
Regards,
sijoko
Thanks for your reply. I hope that some company will begin supporting the VH45DE. But if not, custom parts would be worth it.
This engine looks like it has tremendous potential. The only things that I would do are: 1) Install lower compression (9 to 1) forged pistons with thermal coating. 2) Have the block modified for piston oil sprayers. (This might not even be necessary with an upgraded cooling system and a good oil cooling setup.)
I think that with these modifications and proper tuning, the VH can handle a fair amount of boost. Maybe around, 14-16 psi. That would net around 500-550 hp easily.
Maybe, more of the members will get bit with the performance bug and we will have the next 4 door Supra on our hands. But then again, I like driving something that most people don't know much about.
Regards,
sijoko
Sijoko,
I think your estimated power gains with decompressed pistons and approx 15 psi of boost are conservative based on what I am acheiving at just 10 psi intercooled.
I only went to 7psi non intercooled and was acheiving about 440hp at the flywheel. With intercooling and 3 psi more the HP has increased slightly, but Torque has increased dramatically.
I don't know my final HP & Torque figures are at the moment, as I am breaking traction on the Dyno (may have to look at 'tuning rims & tires' that will allow me to deflate the tyres for additional grip on the Dyno) and the OEM Tranny is really struggles at anything over about 420 Hp. I thought it would have been good for 500HP.
FYI, I am setting the car up for Torque, not just all out HP.
Regards
AGM
I think your estimated power gains with decompressed pistons and approx 15 psi of boost are conservative based on what I am acheiving at just 10 psi intercooled.
I only went to 7psi non intercooled and was acheiving about 440hp at the flywheel. With intercooling and 3 psi more the HP has increased slightly, but Torque has increased dramatically.
I don't know my final HP & Torque figures are at the moment, as I am breaking traction on the Dyno (may have to look at 'tuning rims & tires' that will allow me to deflate the tyres for additional grip on the Dyno) and the OEM Tranny is really struggles at anything over about 420 Hp. I thought it would have been good for 500HP.
FYI, I am setting the car up for Torque, not just all out HP.
Regards
AGM
-
sijoko
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:54 am
- Car: Black 1994 Infiniti Q45 Turbo, Pearl White 2014 Maxima Sport
- Contact:
AGM,
I am basing my estimates on an ~20 hp increase for every pound of boost. That would net base hp + 280-320.
Of course, something will be lost due to the lower compression. You would also have to deduct some power to run a supercharger, less if you ran a turbo. So that is why I state that one can expect between 500-550 hp at 14-16 psi.
The key to the whole thing would be to keep the charged air as cool as possible. The beauty of centrifugal compressors is their high efficiency.
Are you still running the water/alcohol injection with your intercooler? Have you taken any measurement of intake temps at boost? It would be interesting to find out how much heat is being added.
I can only imagine what kind of beast the Q would turn into with over 450 hp. That should put you into the mid 12 second quarter mile bracket easily.
Regards,
sijoko
I am basing my estimates on an ~20 hp increase for every pound of boost. That would net base hp + 280-320.
Of course, something will be lost due to the lower compression. You would also have to deduct some power to run a supercharger, less if you ran a turbo. So that is why I state that one can expect between 500-550 hp at 14-16 psi.
The key to the whole thing would be to keep the charged air as cool as possible. The beauty of centrifugal compressors is their high efficiency.
Are you still running the water/alcohol injection with your intercooler? Have you taken any measurement of intake temps at boost? It would be interesting to find out how much heat is being added.
I can only imagine what kind of beast the Q would turn into with over 450 hp. That should put you into the mid 12 second quarter mile bracket easily.
Regards,
sijoko
For the record, I am still assuming that Level 10 will do the right thing in respect to the Torque Converter they have supplied me with. I think they are still scratching their head at the moment as to how they sent me the wrong one. I am hopeful and looking forward to reporting back that the correct one is on its way down under, courtesy of Level 10. I am keeping my fingers crossed at the moment.
Sijoko,
I am running a water to air intercooler. With the intake temp significantly reduced, I found little benefit in the water injection as I found that cold 'dry' air gave superior performance to cold 'wet' air.
For this reason I never actually tried the 50/50 water isopropyl alcohol mix as I only got as far as water only.
So not to waste the Aquamist system, I have reused it in a different way. I am using it as a spray bar on the front mounted heat exchanger, to increase the cooling due to the evaporation process.
I can't remember the drop in intake temps of the top of my head, but everyone involved with the car has never seen such temp drops with such low boost lag/drop.
I have ordered a second intercooler that should drop the intake temp even more, as it will use water chilled from the cars A/C
The set up sounds quite complex, but in a nut shell. The primary intercooler runs all the time with a high water flow as a traditional water/air intercooler. ie evaporation coolls the water, which cools the air.
The second additional will only operates (in addition to the primary intercooler and at the same time) when the cars A/C is on and has a low water flow rate so that it gets chilled through an in line refrigerant heat exchanger. ie refrigerant chills the water which chills the air.
Won't get the second intercooler till February, so don't know if the theory will work yet.
My goal is to be able to hold 10psi boost with minimum rise above ambient temp.
I can go below ambient my adding dry ice to the water holder in the boot, but I am setting up the car as a daily driver, so I don't have to fill up with ice to cool the intake temp ect.
Regards
AGM
Sijoko,
I am running a water to air intercooler. With the intake temp significantly reduced, I found little benefit in the water injection as I found that cold 'dry' air gave superior performance to cold 'wet' air.
For this reason I never actually tried the 50/50 water isopropyl alcohol mix as I only got as far as water only.
So not to waste the Aquamist system, I have reused it in a different way. I am using it as a spray bar on the front mounted heat exchanger, to increase the cooling due to the evaporation process.
I can't remember the drop in intake temps of the top of my head, but everyone involved with the car has never seen such temp drops with such low boost lag/drop.
I have ordered a second intercooler that should drop the intake temp even more, as it will use water chilled from the cars A/C
The set up sounds quite complex, but in a nut shell. The primary intercooler runs all the time with a high water flow as a traditional water/air intercooler. ie evaporation coolls the water, which cools the air.
The second additional will only operates (in addition to the primary intercooler and at the same time) when the cars A/C is on and has a low water flow rate so that it gets chilled through an in line refrigerant heat exchanger. ie refrigerant chills the water which chills the air.
Won't get the second intercooler till February, so don't know if the theory will work yet.
My goal is to be able to hold 10psi boost with minimum rise above ambient temp.
I can go below ambient my adding dry ice to the water holder in the boot, but I am setting up the car as a daily driver, so I don't have to fill up with ice to cool the intake temp ect.
Regards
AGM
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14365
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
It is much easier to never let detonation , preignition get started than to stop it once it starts.
Thus the wonderful nature of chilling the air all the time via the chilled water [via AC].........once you build up a mass [a few gallons of 40F water alcohol mix...........the intake air is 60F.
Insulating the plenum, runners, TB, and all the piping can be a challenge.
Study Ford patent on the process:http://forums.evolutionm.net/s....html
" the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. "
Thus the wonderful nature of chilling the air all the time via the chilled water [via AC].........once you build up a mass [a few gallons of 40F water alcohol mix...........the intake air is 60F.
Insulating the plenum, runners, TB, and all the piping can be a challenge.
Study Ford patent on the process:http://forums.evolutionm.net/s....html
" the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. "
-
sijoko
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:54 am
- Car: Black 1994 Infiniti Q45 Turbo, Pearl White 2014 Maxima Sport
- Contact:
I have a similiar idea to keep intake temps down using an air/water intercooler and an electric refrigerator/cooler.
What if one uses a large electric cooler/refrigerator that can be filled with water and has the capability to effectively chill the water ? I have seen some that can cool to 40 degrees below ambient. This cooler could be installed in the trunk with chilled water pumped to an air/water intercooler in the front.
After the water absorbs the heat from the intake, it would pass through a heat exchanger and then back to the electric cooler in the trunk. The pump could be controlled by a boost switch (preferred) or a throttle switch. This way the water would stay chilled until you needed it.
If the electric cooler is large enough (4 gallons), you would have enough cool water for at least 20 seconds using a 12 gpm pump. This would be long enough for most road cars. You could also through some ice into the water.
There are, of course, details that need to be worked out. The electric cooler/refrigerator is probably the biggest one. Obviously, it would have to be the type that can hold water. You would also have to mount it securely. The plumbing from the cooler/refrig. would have be insulated so that the water doesn't absorb heat before it reaches the intercooler. The heat exchanger should be large enough to bring the water back to ambient before it returns to the cooler.
One drawback is having to wait for the water to chill, but again if you are in a hurry just throw some ice in it. Another is of course, the weight of the system. But the extra power would more than offset that. Plus the Q is not exactly a Lotus.
The beauty of this set-up is that you could have intake temps below ambient, at least for the time that you are on boost. You could also use this design on a naturally aspirated car to improve acceleration during hot weather.
-sijoko
What if one uses a large electric cooler/refrigerator that can be filled with water and has the capability to effectively chill the water ? I have seen some that can cool to 40 degrees below ambient. This cooler could be installed in the trunk with chilled water pumped to an air/water intercooler in the front.
After the water absorbs the heat from the intake, it would pass through a heat exchanger and then back to the electric cooler in the trunk. The pump could be controlled by a boost switch (preferred) or a throttle switch. This way the water would stay chilled until you needed it.
If the electric cooler is large enough (4 gallons), you would have enough cool water for at least 20 seconds using a 12 gpm pump. This would be long enough for most road cars. You could also through some ice into the water.
There are, of course, details that need to be worked out. The electric cooler/refrigerator is probably the biggest one. Obviously, it would have to be the type that can hold water. You would also have to mount it securely. The plumbing from the cooler/refrig. would have be insulated so that the water doesn't absorb heat before it reaches the intercooler. The heat exchanger should be large enough to bring the water back to ambient before it returns to the cooler.
One drawback is having to wait for the water to chill, but again if you are in a hurry just throw some ice in it. Another is of course, the weight of the system. But the extra power would more than offset that. Plus the Q is not exactly a Lotus.
The beauty of this set-up is that you could have intake temps below ambient, at least for the time that you are on boost. You could also use this design on a naturally aspirated car to improve acceleration during hot weather.
-sijoko
Is it feasible to buy one from Ford and have it modified for AGM's particular needs?Q45tech wrote:It is much easier to never let detonation , preignition get started than to stop it once it starts.
Thus the wonderful nature of chilling the air all the time via the chilled water [via AC].........once you build up a mass [a few gallons of 40F water alcohol mix...........the intake air is 60F.
Insulating the plenum, runners, TB, and all the piping can be a challenge.
Study Ford patent on the process:http://forums.evolutionm.net/s....html
" the SVT Lighting concept can give its driver as much as 50 transient horsepower for short bursts of 30-45 seconds and regenerate within 2 minutes under normal driving conditions. "
Hope this information I detail below is useful
I looked in detail at the viability of an electric water chiller in the boot. The problem with a fridge type is that it requires 240 volt, is large, takes a long time to chill, heats up easily and draws a lot of power to chill even if you use a converter to conver the 12 volt to 240 volt.
All 12 volt friges that I came across have such a low BTU that I did not pursue them.
When researching, I was amazed at just how much energy is required to chill water.
There are two types of water chillers, with the most adaptable being those used in cold water fish aquariams. There are two types, regrigerant and peltier. They both have the same problems of size, cost, time to chill ect mentioned above.
It is much easier to simply build a box and throw some ice in, allowing for an overflow pipe when the ice melts.
It is cheap, lasts for a fairly long time and acheives very low temps.
After a lot of research, I decided to utilise what is already in the car. I have plumbed in a commercial 'plate' style of heat exchanger on the suction side of the A/C just before the compressor.so that it causes minimum interferance with the cooling inside the car.
This chills the water and is currently just recirculating back into my storage tank until I decide what to do with this chilled water. Now that I have a chilled water line, at a lot less cost than introducing a stand alone water chiller device, I plan to experiment with how to best use this chilled water. ie store and use for a short burst or have running through a secondary intercooler, so that I have it on constantly, but not as dramatic as bursts of power.
I am leaning towards having a constant level of power.
Regards
AGM
I looked in detail at the viability of an electric water chiller in the boot. The problem with a fridge type is that it requires 240 volt, is large, takes a long time to chill, heats up easily and draws a lot of power to chill even if you use a converter to conver the 12 volt to 240 volt.
All 12 volt friges that I came across have such a low BTU that I did not pursue them.
When researching, I was amazed at just how much energy is required to chill water.
There are two types of water chillers, with the most adaptable being those used in cold water fish aquariams. There are two types, regrigerant and peltier. They both have the same problems of size, cost, time to chill ect mentioned above.
It is much easier to simply build a box and throw some ice in, allowing for an overflow pipe when the ice melts.
It is cheap, lasts for a fairly long time and acheives very low temps.
After a lot of research, I decided to utilise what is already in the car. I have plumbed in a commercial 'plate' style of heat exchanger on the suction side of the A/C just before the compressor.so that it causes minimum interferance with the cooling inside the car.
This chills the water and is currently just recirculating back into my storage tank until I decide what to do with this chilled water. Now that I have a chilled water line, at a lot less cost than introducing a stand alone water chiller device, I plan to experiment with how to best use this chilled water. ie store and use for a short burst or have running through a secondary intercooler, so that I have it on constantly, but not as dramatic as bursts of power.
I am leaning towards having a constant level of power.
Regards
AGM
Sijoko,
I have only gotten as far as setting up the traditional water to air intercooler at this stage. I have not even put ice in the tank yet.
I am focusing on what I can acheive without ice first and add it later.
The trick is to get the water to flow fast through the intercooler so it does not get heated up and return back to the tank hot. To the contrary, you want the water to flow slowly through the heat exchanger so it cools it, whether or not it is evaporative or refrigerant.
When I flowed the water at 80Litres/minunte through the intercooler back into the storage tank (with a setrab radiator in between) and the refrigerant line back to the tank at 20 Litres/ minute, the cooling was minimal. ie 80 Litres/minute at ambient overides 20 Litres/Minute cooled water.
For this reason I am keeping one intercooler a traditional Spearco type set up which relies on ice. The second completley seperate intercooler will use the refrigerant line. ie Two seperate intercoolers in the same car.
I recommend just going for a spearco set up and using ice. I don't even know if my second set up will work at this stage.
Put the heat exchanger/radiator beneath the radiator (SLM series Setrab) and the intercooler (Spearco) in place of the OEM cold air box and modify the intake so that you can fit a cone of pod filterlow in front of the car were the hole in the chassis feeds the air to the OEM air box.
I am actually not using a Spearco, but it is a well known and by all account quality unit available in the US.
The tank I have in the back is located directly behind the fuel tank and holds about 50 litres, as a guess.
Contact Turbontetics and buy the book 'all about intercooling'It is a good read and has a lot about using ice in a storage tank.
It has performance charts and calculations of intake temp relationship to psi to hp ect.
Regards
AGM
I have only gotten as far as setting up the traditional water to air intercooler at this stage. I have not even put ice in the tank yet.
I am focusing on what I can acheive without ice first and add it later.
The trick is to get the water to flow fast through the intercooler so it does not get heated up and return back to the tank hot. To the contrary, you want the water to flow slowly through the heat exchanger so it cools it, whether or not it is evaporative or refrigerant.
When I flowed the water at 80Litres/minunte through the intercooler back into the storage tank (with a setrab radiator in between) and the refrigerant line back to the tank at 20 Litres/ minute, the cooling was minimal. ie 80 Litres/minute at ambient overides 20 Litres/Minute cooled water.
For this reason I am keeping one intercooler a traditional Spearco type set up which relies on ice. The second completley seperate intercooler will use the refrigerant line. ie Two seperate intercoolers in the same car.
I recommend just going for a spearco set up and using ice. I don't even know if my second set up will work at this stage.
Put the heat exchanger/radiator beneath the radiator (SLM series Setrab) and the intercooler (Spearco) in place of the OEM cold air box and modify the intake so that you can fit a cone of pod filterlow in front of the car were the hole in the chassis feeds the air to the OEM air box.
I am actually not using a Spearco, but it is a well known and by all account quality unit available in the US.
The tank I have in the back is located directly behind the fuel tank and holds about 50 litres, as a guess.
Contact Turbontetics and buy the book 'all about intercooling'It is a good read and has a lot about using ice in a storage tank.
It has performance charts and calculations of intake temp relationship to psi to hp ect.
Regards
AGM
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