More on the GTR

[telcoman]

For those that ignore The New York Times

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.co...t=nyt

Enjoy

How Much Power Does the Nissan GT-R Really Have?By Ezra Dyer

Tags: gt r, horsepower, Nissan

It seems as though the only time you hear about car companies fudging horsepower numbers, it’s when they’re busted advertising more beans than are actually present in the under-hood burrito. Mazda got in trouble for exaggerating the 2001 Miata’s power output. Ford had to recall the 1999 SVT Mustang Cobra when owners realized its motor fell about 20 horsepower short of its official numbers. In the early 2000’s, Hyundai offered its customers extended roadside assistance and warranties after several models suffered double-digit horsepower deficits.I have a theory on where all those phantom ponies went: They’re under the hood of the new Nissan GT-R.Like those other cars, the GT-R’s stated power — 480 horsepower — is a long way from reality. But in the case of the Nissan, the truth is that the car seems to have more power than they’re letting on. The question is, how much more?Nissan knows, but the company is not saying. Peter Bedrosian, regional project manager for product planning, said that Nissan tests every GT-R production engine on a dynamometer, then records the horsepower and torque for that particular car. “And can owners find out how much power their car’s motor puts out?” I asked. That’s a no. I presume that the power printouts are sealed in a lead capsule and buried deep inside Mount Fuji under dead of night. So we’ll just have to make an educated guess.Thanks to the principle of substitution, we can look at several aspects of the GT-R’s performance and deduce roughly what kind of firepower would be required to accomplish such feats. For a corollary, the former N.B.A. point guard Spud Webb could dunk (and maybe, for all I know, still can). Spud Webb is 5-foot-7. If Webb told you his vertical leap was only 20 inches, you would conclude that Mr. Webb was understating his abilities and that someone of his height would need at least a 40-inch vertical to win the 1986 NBA Slam Dunk Contest, which he did. Likewise, the Nissan GT-R laps Germany’s Nürburgring Nordschleife in 7 minutes 29 seconds, which is very nearly the fastest time ever recorded by a production car. For reference, the Corvette Z06, which has 505 horsepower and weighs a whopping 700 pounds less than the GT-R, is 13 seconds slower, with a time of 7 minutes 42 seconds. So, the car with 25 fewer horsepower and 700 more pounds of weight is much, much faster than its rival? Something is rotten in the state of the S.A.E. horsepower laboratories. I’ll grant you that there are many variables involved in a lap of the Nordschleife, and Nissan will point out that the GT-R has a sophisticated all-wheel-drive system that allows it to power neatly out of corners, while the Z06 is rear-wheel drive. But still … 13 seconds? We could presume that, based on this statistic alone, the GT-R must have at least as much power as the Z06, about 500 horses. But that still wouldn’t be close.A clearer picture emerges at the drag strip. Basically, your quarter-mile time is influenced by a host of factors, most importantly the success of your launch off the line. But trap speed — the speed at which you finish the quarter-mile — is closely tied to horsepower and a car’s power-to-weight ratio. It’s algebra: If you know your car’s weight, and you know the speed it reached in a quarter-mile, you can pretty much predict the amount of power required to produce that trap speed. Trap speed doesn’t lie. And the GT-R’s trap speeds give lie to that 480-horsepower rating. The GT-R can hit 122 or 123 miles per hour in the quarter-mile. It weighs about 4,000 pounds, with driver. There are many calculators and equations devoted to divining horsepower numbers, and given this weight and trap speed, most of them peg the GT-R’s output between 550 horsepower on the conservative end and 580 horsepower on the “maybe on a cool day with a tailwind” side. But I would eat my time slips if this car doesn’t have at least 550 horsepower.So why won’t Nissan just fess up? Maybe it’s for insurance reasons. Maybe it’s to appease the Japanese government, which regards the GT-R as a pavement-eating menace to civilized mankind. Or maybe it’s because it’s just more fun not to know. It adds to the legend. Because when someone asks you how much power your car makes, hard stats are boring. It’s much more entertaining to say, “480 horsepower, officially,” then, in a conspiratorial tone, confide, “but everyone knows it’s got more.” Comments (41) E-mail this Share Del.icio.us Digg Facebook Newsvine Permalink 41 comments so far...1.June 30th,20082:55 pm Reminds me of the old Corvette Sting Ray. The L-88 big block was officially rated at 430 or 435 hp for insurance purposes but actually produced close to 560 hp.

— Posted by as 2.June 30th,20083:02 pm The short gearing might have something to do with it. I think Car and Driver mag last month covered it in depth.

— Posted by gene 3.June 30th,20083:14 pm Didn’t they do this earlier on with the original skyline?

— Posted by rochan mehta 4.June 30th,20083:45 pm UH…

GT-R’s output between 550 horsepower on the conservative end and 580 horsepower on the “maybe on a cool day with a tailwind” side. ..

You mean on a cold day with a headwind. Hot air has lower density, this reduces drag but also reduces power output.

— Posted by Heydrich 5.June 30th,20083:56 pm Or maybe its got to do with taxation in Europe - where many countries heavily tax cars based on their horsepower and CO2 emission. By testing the car only upto a lower HP (and therefore lower the CO2 emission), Nissan can bring the car down to the lower tax brackets and thus sell more cars

— Posted by IrishEyes 6.June 30th,20084:01 pm That’s quite interesting. Perhaps that explains why the fuel economy of all the Infiniti vehicles we looked at recently were worse than their peers of similar size. Unfortunately, you reviewers crave power (and write extensively about it in all your car reviews) but us mear mortals who just drive to work each day crave high MPG.

— Posted by Sean 7.June 30th,20084:16 pm More important these days than the car’s horsepower is its MPG rating.

— Posted by ctwriter 8.June 30th,20084:33 pm As recently published not sure where - The horsepower is stated correctly though friction created by the driveline is dramatically reduced offering greater amount of the stated 480 hp to reach the wheels.

It is simple really at what can be done with quality engineering and materials.

Bugatti Veyron is another excellent example all titanium fasteners throughout. It is truely amazing at the low cost of the Nissan. Good Job.

— Posted by Toby Delbridge 9.June 30th,20084:43 pm What does it develop on a dynamometer as installed in a car and how does that compare with cars with “known” horsepower. That information might help determine, more closely, the real horsepower of the GT-R.

— Posted by Andy Weinberger 10.June 30th,20084:51 pm There is nothing new about understating a car’s actual horsepower. In the 60s and 70s Chrysler Corp. raised it to an art form with their Hemi muscle cars. They were advertised at 425HP, but would always make more than 500 at the rear wheels after all the drivetrain losses. Same game, perhaps a different reason.

Phil Z.

— Posted by Phil Z. 11.June 30th,20084:55 pm 700lbs more or did you mean less?

— Posted by lou 12.June 30th,20085:00 pm The GT-R runs impressive lap times, can move its weight rapidly, and understates its powers (at least on paper).What the G-TR lacks is some of the legendary panty-dropping, Master-of-the-Universe, horse power.Whether it was 480 HP or 580 HP you will be stepping in and out of a Nissan and referring to your car as “my Nissan”, or “my GT-R”. Ask any Versa buyer how powerful that feels..

— Posted by Sforza F40 13.June 30th,20085:08 pm In physics Newton says, “force = mass times acceleration”…so why the hell does this rocketship weigh so damn much??? Performance is also cornering and stopping. Luxury that adds up to being heavy is a sad price to pay unless the purpose of this machine is not really to go fast, but, more importantly, to be comfortable while driving! The quality and price will set a hard to reach benchmark for the other auto makers though.-Dan Romig

— Posted by dan romig 14.June 30th,20085:13 pm It could be a fickney temperamental beast and that it can not always reliably make the 550 figure but can do the lower all the time.

— Posted by Glen Hinckley 15.June 30th,20085:16 pm Rather than speculate, why not just put one on the dyno and find out? Nissan may not want to provide the real horsepower and torque number or not, but surely some curious owner will allow his or her car to be used for that purpose. You’d need to remove the engine in order to measure hp at the crank, which is what that 480 hp figure refers to, but I think we can assume you’d also put it back!

— Posted by Jackie Jouret 16.June 30th,20088:26 pm I personally don’t believe Nissan have underrated to that degree. I’ve driven the thing and have witnessed enough dyno runs now to believe its close to 480. Maybe not EXACTLY but close enough.

Considering the breadth of fuel types in the US, from Californian 91 to east coast 93 I think saying 480 is a wise choice for Nissan.

— Posted by GTRBlog.com 17.June 30th,20088:47 pm the z06 had a 7:42 ‘Ring time from a stop. the GT-R’s time was a hotlap. Also, the new Corvette ZR1 pulled a 7:26 laptop (hotlap with a non-pro driver)

— Posted by Eddy A 18.June 30th,20088:48 pm To rid all the phony performance numbers SAE set a standard dyno test set but you find nissan refused to do those tests yet GM has such as the Corvette and Caddie CTS-V since 2006.

Also you find that when normal car owners run this GT-R that they are not getting great end results as all these magazines and blogs do for prfit reasons.

Their answer will be ” the cars used in performance testing were not configured or tuned to USA requirements”

— Posted by 99vette 19.June 30th,20089:02 pm The emphasis on horsepower is misplaced. We buy cars to drive, not to compare spreadsheets. Horsepower is important insofar as it produces real world results. See the Ariel Atom for an example.

My fellow Americans, our cars need a diet as much as our citizens! Not only are we getting fat, but we’re exporting our culture of obesity to formerly thin countries, such as Japan. Our culture of rotundness is a plauge upon this earth. It contributes in no small portion to global warming from cow butts, rolly polly pre-diabetic children, and now, overweight sports cars from the land formerly known as the rising sun, henceforth known as the land of the rising sum (of body mass).

A lighter GT-R wouldn’t need 480 deceptively understated horsepower to achieve stellar peformance. We need a revolution!

— Posted by Jason 20.June 30th,20089:13 pm Having worked at the Nissan drivetrain facility in TN, keeping up with all of the data pertaining to every engine we produced, I can say that the engines that came out of our plant had a substantial difference in power compared to what is listed on the sticker at the dealership. The VQ engine would dyno at around 325 hp at the crank. I don’t know how much power is lost through the transaxle on a normal altima, but it isn’t going to be 100hp.

— Posted by Danny 21.June 30th,20089:16 pm Ineteresting,I just wish the Nissan GT-R would get that horsepower as U say!

— Posted by 我就爱乖乖 22.June 30th,20089:31 pm Remember, if the gentleman’s agreement was still in place, they’d state that it makes 280PS/267HP

the old R34 produced more than 280PS out of factory too…

— Posted by Nakey boy 23.June 30th,200811:07 pm The Haltech R35 GTR was run up on an AWD Dyno Dynamics chassis dyno and produced 298.1kW at the wheels (after all drivetrain losses). It ran 11.1 @ 121mph in 100% standard, unmodified trim.

If the drivetrain in this car only chews 50-something kW I’ll eat my hat.

See the following link for video of the car at the track and dyno plots of the std car vs. the std car plus a Haltech Platinum ECU.

— Posted by Adrian 24.June 30th,200811:43 pm The reason the GT-R gets off the line so fast isn’t the horsepower but the trick manumatic gear box, AWD and low gearing. Its shifted twice already by the time it hits 0-60 in 3.5 or so seconds. The Corvette Z06 hits 0-60 in 3.7 in first with 500whp and the Porsche Turbo requires one manual shift just under 4 secs. That same gearbox along with AWD diff trickery also help ‘Ring lap times.

— Posted by leavestevie 25.July 1st,20082:04 am “Whether it was 480 HP or 580 HP you will be stepping in and out of a Nissan and referring to your car as “my Nissan”, or “my GT-R”. Ask any Versa buyer how powerful that feels.. ”

I drive a 300ZX. It feels pretty damn good.

— Posted by Sean 26.July 1st,20082:22 am what’s your point of the article? that a japanese car cheated? come’on… havn’t you been to R35’s dyno sessions…

and your argument has been power firgures, a quick car isn’t all about power, it’s how it uses that power for effective and fast figures.

GTR’s chassis moved away from Skyline and was built from ground up, took nearly a decade since the R34 back in year 1999, all I’m saying is the GTR’s chassis, suspension set up and especially the electronics and innovative drivetrain, contributed to it’s fast pace

— Posted by Blitzen 27.July 1st,20085:52 am Has anyone considered that the performance comes from 480PS put to the ground through an ultra high tech gear box, state of the art launch control and all-wheel drive. Three things that no American wanna be contender has.

— Posted by Trump 28.July 1st,20088:32 am I’ve seen a video of a GT-R on the dyno, it put 484 HP at the wheels. It said it was stock, but it was somewhere in Japan, and you can never really know for sure but it seems to be a reality in my mind.

— Posted by Jon 29.July 1st,200811:45 am the new GT-R has only 10% friction loss if you payed attention to the news you would know this. spreading around this missinformation is not nice. nissan has stated at the 360 event they had that its a loss of only 10%. motor trend reported this information on there blog of the 360 event. Please stop spreading this FUD about horsepower.

— Posted by mindlessoath 30.July 1st,20081:32 pm Yeah, the only issue with that Nurburgring flying lap was that they started out moving vs. other cars standing starts, and measured from a different part of the track.

— Posted by theycheated 31.July 1st,20081:56 pm http://blogs.motortrend.com/62...n-360 -day-1-things-ive-learned/index.html

quote:Nissan engineers insist the GT-R really does only have 480 hp. Motohiro Matsumura, president of Nissan Technical Center North America, Inc. in Farmington Hills, Michigan, says our dyno test story, which revealed the GT-R develops 430 hp at the wheels, is basically right. But he insists our estimate of a minimum 15-percent friction losses — which suggests the GT-R is making 507 hp — is wrong. Matsumura-san says ultra-low friction bearings in the wheel hubs and transmission, plus the careful alignment of the all-wheel-drive system’s propshafts, mean friction losses are reduced to an unprecedented 10 percent or so. We’re going to get a GT-R back and conduct some coast-down tests to see if he’s right.

end quote

All these dyno’s everyone is seeing are rating the gt-r higher, like 15% to 30%

its also a myth about percentages, because new cars will have a much lower percentage and older cars will show a higher percentage because of obvious reasons. independint tests show this, but since the overwelming public belives what everyone says that was passed down from them, its just an on going myth that only few will belive. in any case i dont have the link to that independent test. so take that comment with a grain of salt.

— Posted by Mindlessoath 32.July 1st,20081:56 pm “More important these days than the car’s horsepower is its MPG rating.”— Posted by ctwriter

I say that is absolutely not the case, you don’t buy a car like this for it’s fuel efficency, you buy a car like this for the feeling you get when you dump the clutch and tromp on the accelerator it throws you back in your seat, chirping the tires through all 6 gears.

— Posted by Roland 33.July 1st,20083:13 pm Nissan is a co. way ahead when it comes to engines, drive their 2.5 Altima and you will think your in a 6 cyclinder but the gas mileage is fantastic.

— Posted by The magic one 34.July 1st,20088:03 pm Sort of like the SR-71 Blackbird

How fast does it go?“Fast”

How high does it fly?“We can’t tell you”

Famous story in Airline Humor:Los Angeles Center reported receiving a request for clearance to flight level 600 (60,000 feet). The incredulous controller, with some disdain in his voice, asked, “How do you plan to get up to 60,000 feet?”

The Blackbird pilot responded, “We don’t plan to go up to it, we plan to go down to it!”

— Posted by Matt Simmons 35.July 1st,200810:50 pm It’s all in the Japanese mentality, and Asian mentality that loves to see underdogs win. Super heroes that saves the day but gets 0% in tests, or drift kings that knew nothing bout cars and learnt his skills while sending tofu.

It’s in big contrast to the usual Batmans or Ironman who had all cash, and the looks and the girls.

Hence the best thing to grow the hype is to concrete the fact that GTRs not only beat cars twice it’s price, it now also beats those that are heavier with more horsepower. As if MAGIC.

Marketing had gone a long way.

— Posted by Bobby 36.July 2nd,20081:46 am I have a GT-R and it has like 12 billion horsepower. I’m so awesome. Go Nismo!

— Posted by Brandon 37.July 2nd,20083:09 am A very recent test by a popular car mag yielded a 1/4mi time of 12.6 second @ 111mph, more in line with 480hp and 3900lbs. There has been at least one other similar test.

I think the early tests were done with “special” GT-Rs…

— Posted by John M 38.July 2nd,200811:04 am Another element to add to the mystery… Nissan is reportedly limiting the GT-R’s horsepower available when the car is on ‘normal road’, and only removing the limiter (using a built-in GPS sensor) when the car figures out it’s on a race track.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/1...ogniz es-tracks-via-gps-removes-speed-limiter/

Perhaps some of those dyno tests may not be getting the full horsepower…?

— Posted by ray19 39.July 2nd,20089:27 pm Agree with John M’s post that Car and Driver’s first test of a GT-R was .3 sec faster in the quarter than a stock Z-06. Interestingly the latest test with a production GT-R was .4 sec slower than the Z-06. Looks like Nissan provided a “special” car for the early press. Talk about false advertising.

— Posted by RonLT 40.July 3rd,20087:43 pm Quote:Agree with John M’s post that Car and Driver’s first test of a GT-R was .3 sec faster in the quarter than a stock Z-06. Interestingly the latest test with a production GT-R was .4 sec slower than the Z-06. Looks like Nissan provided a “special” car for the early press. Talk about false advertising.— Posted by RonLTEnd Quote

Nope, you’re wrong. This test was done on a production GTR borrowed from an owner:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDoJdQXmwu8

Better luck next time

LJ

— Posted by Enthusiast 41.July 4th,20081:13 pm No, actually, I am correct. The clip you refer to was an Edmunds not Car and Driver one. The Edmunds test was in Japan with an owner loaned Japanese car, not an American spec car. Also, Edmunds did not specify if that particular car was was box-stock or had been “tweaked” by the owner. For the magazine, the car was provided by Nissan. I still think the car was a ringer. I am not dissing the GT-R. It is apparently a great car but a “real” production car seems to not be quite as quick as the version given to the magazine to test.

— Posted by RonLT Add your comments...

Telcoman

[snwbrdr435]

Telco that might be the longest post on here. Holy wall of text.

[Beancooker]

550 is pretty generous. 580 is too generous.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it has more than 480.

R34 GTR Skylines were rated at 280 HP or something retarded like that. They actually pushed a lot more than that, and with a few dollars in a boost controller, pushed a lot more.

[telcoman]

Telco that might be the longest post on here. Holy wall of text.

I received a few complaints from some that couldn't access the New York Times. I think perhaps they were just leaning too far to the right?

Telcoman

[zozoka1212]

The lap time I think is better then the Z06 because of the attesa AWD. Perhaps gain more speed at the corners. Just my .02

zozo

[ACoupe]

Quote »"Whether it was 480 HP or 580 HP you will be stepping in and out of a Nissan and referring to your car as “my Nissan”, or “my GT-R”."[/quote]Yeah, and that "Nissan" and it's 0-60 in 3.4 will pretty much kick the #### out of whatever "drops panties".The GTR is lacking in "Master of the Universe" horsepower????Just how much more hp does it need?Give me a break.

[SVTCOBRA]

telcoman, you posted a story about a Cobra!

My buddy has a 99 Cobra that was part of that recall. From what I recall, after the recall work the Cobra's had MORE than the 320 HP that was advertised.

Also a story about the GT-R. Can't wait to take one on a test drive!!! What?? My Nissan dealer tells me that I can look at it from behind a rope??

Wait a second!!! I have a lottery ticket that I haven't checked!...............well, it appears I'll have to stay behind the ropes....

[G37 Man]

telcoman, you posted a story about a Cobra!

My buddy has a 99 Cobra that was part of that recall. From what I recall, after the recall work the Cobra's had MORE than the 320 HP that was advertised.

Also a story about the GT-R. Can't wait to take one on a test drive!!! What?? My Nissan dealer tells me that I can look at it from behind a rope??

Wait a second!!! I have a lottery ticket that I haven't checked!...............well, it appears I'll have to stay behind the ropes....

If the GT-R was sold by Infiniti you would not have to worry about looking at it behind ropes!Just flash your bank book in front of them and you would get a picture to look at and well wishes.

[Jacko3]

This is a rare and unusual situation for a car company---Nissan. I don't think they actually intended to build a car that was this powerful and I don't beleive they are doing this for cult following. Thus, the attempts at lying and hiding the truth behind the GT-R's true capabilities.

I beleive the GT-R exceeded Nissan's engineering philosophy or target, and so, they are now struggling to keep its capabilities under lock and key for insurance, and perhaps, Japanese emission standards. And I beleive, this akward situation may have forced them to accept the truth about the super capability of the monster they have created, thus, the birth of the GT-R Spec V.

The spec V, I beleive is the culmination of a few years of denial about the GT-R's true capabilities. So, why not just go all out and unleash the beast for what it is, and accept all the consequences that come with building a monster---this is perhaps the idea behind the creation of the GTR - Spec V. The spec V represents Nissan attempt at coming forward to tell the truth.

Because of this, Nissan wil never ever own up to the true capabilities of the GT-R--never ever. Instead, if you want to hear the truth, you will have to buy a GT-R Spec V to know the real truth--Nissan will quickly tell truth on the spec v before they do on the GT-R.

I have read several magazines of the GT-R, and just about every single one of them seems to refute Nissan's claim that the car comes with 480 horses. All of them claim and show that the horsepower of that car exceeds the 480 horses.

So, lets allow Nissan to lie about the monster they are about to unleash on the streets of the US.