Edmunds proves Versas are cheaper to own/operate than any hybrids

[cyberdeity]

Tough to get a short enough thread title that would spark interest, but this is a great article worth checking out. Here at work, the guys always talk about cars, including hybrids. We've done some very rough rudimentary math and figured that hybrids were not currently worth messing with if your goal was only cost, and it was nice to see Edmunds back up this theory with some real numbers. They figured out the Cost To Own on many cars, and it ends up that the Versa is #6, but not a single hybrid breaks into the top 10. Gas would have to be almost $6 per gallon before a hybrid makes it into the list!

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080625...?.v=1

I'm sure some hybrid owners will come up with some good conversation as to why this is wrong, and I'd love to hear it cause it seems pretty black and white to me: Most 'average' drivers who fall into the parameters in the article would never financially benefit from buying a hybrid vs an inexpensive car like a Versa.

What cha think?

[Woody64]

This is basically what drove my decision to buy a Versa. They are significantly cheaper than Hybrids and as this now shows numerically, more cost efficient....thanks for the post

[Vahagn23]

If you actually think, you would have to spend almost 20k more on a hybird compared to the V. You would also have to spend on maintanance and buy gas. Where if you buy the V, you can put the 20k for a lifetime gas and maintanance fees.

[srellim234]

$20k more is an exaggeration. There is only an $8k difference between Versa with CVT and Civic hybrid.

Each purchaser needs to evaluate these figures based on their own situation, too. These figures make assumptions that might make the figures diffrent from what would actually apply to you.

It assumes you're not keeping the car. Depreciation makes up a large part of the "cost to own" figure. If you're not trading it in, the depreciation figure alone makes the Civic more economical than the Versa after only 4 years.

It also assumes standard financing on a standard down payment. Put a little more down that finance column expense gets lower. Pay it off and it goes away completely.

Lastly, it assumes average driving. If you put a ton of miles on the car commuting, the discrepancy in the fuel cost becomes a little more in favor of the Civic.

I look at the Prius owners around here, and I'm convinced that most of them have no interest in being "green". $$$ outlay wasn't the big factor, either. Outlay in time was. Most of the Prius cars I see around here have those carpool lane stickers on them. Many people bought those cars so they could get in the carpool lane without having to carpool. Plus, around here the Prius is a status symbol for people who don't want to make an effort to be green but want to claim to their friends that they are.

[Vahagn23]

They used to cost much more. Doesnt hybird still use gas on hills and rough terrain?

[Ever Victorious]

Gas would have to be almost $6 per gallon before a hybrid makes it into the list!

Sadly that's going to be what, summer 2009? or 2010?

[AZhitman]

I've been saying this for 2 years...

Search my posts for "hybrid" (or other related terms) as proof.

Not only is it cheaper to own / operate, it's also better for the environment OVERALL (when the car's entire life cycle is considered).

Bottom line? Most people who buy hybrids have no idea what they're doing, haven't done any research, and are only basing their decision on what the dealer tells them (or the fact that some irrelevant self-absorbed celebrity moron owns one).

EDIT: Swap that Versa out for a base-model 5-speed Corolla and watch the gap widen even more.

[Vahagn23]

I've been saying this for 2 years...

Search my posts for "hybrid" (or other related terms) as proof.

Not only is it cheaper to own / operate, it's also better for the environment OVERALL (when the car's entire life cycle is considered).

Bottom line? Most people who buy hybrids have no idea what they're doing, haven't done any research, and are only basing their decision on what the dealer tells them (or the fact that some irrelevant self-absorbed celebrity moron owns one).

EDIT: Swap that Versa out for a base-model 5-speed Corolla and watch the gap widen even more.

I dont get how its better for the environment when it consumes more gas and produces more pollution than the hybird.

[fjwagner]

I dont get how its better for the environment when it consumes more gas and produces more pollution than the hybird.

also must factor in the battery manufacturing, battery disposal. Battery disposal is not a very green activity.

[srellim234]

I'm not sure which gap you're referring to.

Again, due to higher initial price and assumptions on financing, the Versa S with manual comes out under $1k less over five years compared to that Corolla. Take out the depreciation, pay a little higher down payment and the two are dead even over 5 years. Thrown in a Versa SL with CVT and the Corolla is cheaper, but that's not a fair comparison because of the other more expensive amenities you get with the Versa SL.

[AZhitman]

I dont get how its better for the environment when it consumes more gas and produces more pollution than the hybird.

Because you're thinking "micro", not "macro". Think outside the box - that car has to be manufactured and disposed of. The hybrid itself (and the source of electricity) has to be factored int it "footprint".

[AZhitman]

I'm not sure which gap you're referring to.

The gap in overall costs.

The Corolla is getting real-world mileage figures 10mpg + higher than the Versa.

That's all I meant.

[keanucosmo]

The gap in overall costs.

The Corolla is getting real-world mileage figures 10mpg + higher than the Versa.

That's all I meant.

I think 10+ is an eggageration. Based on fueleconomy.gov site, I would say 3-7 would be more like it.

[AZhitman]

I think 10+ is an eggageration. Based on fueleconomy.gov site, I would say 3-7 would be more like it.

I stand corrected, you're right.

In that case, give me a VW Golf TDI and a Diet Pepsi to go.

[biggie]

Yes, at this point a hybrid is either a statement of a person believes or is an uneducated decision (vs just a good mpg standard gas car).

When/if they improve that may change.

[Ever Victorious]

In that case, give me a VW Golf TDI and a Diet Pepsi to go.

Good, because if you mentioned daily driving a Corolla one more time, i would have had to get out the razor with which to do myself in... *shudders at driving such a boring car*

[Slither]

The gap in overall costs.

The Corolla is getting real-world mileage figures 10mpg + higher than the Versa.

That's all I meant.

I hear ya here is a recent [canuck winter] road test 10L/100Km. Same folks got 5.9 from a Fit.

http://www.auto123.com/en/niss...98691

[elwesso]

at least the technology they use in them can be used for other stuff.

The auto companies are making these 100+ HP electric motors that are tiny compared to that of yesterday.. These small and light electric motors could help power the future.

[CodeRed]

The Versa forum isn't where you argue about who is right and wrong. This was an interesting thread.

[Beancooker]

I just cleaned up this thread.

If you want to discuss global issues, this isn't the forum for it. Go to the NICO Politics Forum.

This thread is about gas mileage, hybrids and the cost of driving either car. Unless you have a post related directly to the topic of this thread... don't reply.

ANY further off topic remarks will be deleted without notice.

[MinisterofDOOM]

In addition to agreeing with what Greg (AZhitman) said, here's my observation on the nonsensicalness of hybrid cars:

Petroleum/electric hybrids have been around for almost 100 years. They're called diesel-electric locomotives.

So my question is: Why on earth are we using gasoline engines to actually propel the car in hybrid cars? It makes SO MUCH MORE sense to have electric motors powered by a generator getting power from a very very small gasoline or diesel engine. That's the way large dump trucks work--one motor per wheel, power from the diesel engine.This way, engine RPMs stay extremely low (especially with diesel) and fuel consumption is negligible. You have one smaller electric motor per wheel and that provides even more benefits. First, you can get braking, energy regen, and propulsion from motors alone. Second, you could do a lot with AWD/Traction Control with 4 separate drive systems. And of course, packaging is more compact.

[srellim234]

Some people are trying to bring the "electric first, petroleum for recharging" type of vehicle to the marketplace. The Aptera coming this fall out of Carlsbad runs off electricity, then a small gas engine recharges the electric batteries as needed. If you have access to a plug, petroleum is never needed, but with the small onboard gas engine you're not limited as to the range. Because of that configuration the car can deliver over 200 mpg if driven cross country, while never using gas at all when driven around town.

The car is not mainstream by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I think it's practical for anything other than a person living alone or for use as a commuter, but bringing it to the marketplace might jumpstart the mainstreaming process.

[kc5f]

Unfortunately, the first year the Aptera's only available in the all-electric version, and then only in California. But it looks like it'd be lots of fun to drive, and you'd certainly get folks to take notice, even without modding it!

[srellim234]

Yep. You don't see many airplane cockpits driving around town, even if it had wings attached.

It would be nifty if a company like Nissan could make the technology practical and offer it on something like a Cube Lite. I'll bet they could approach 100 mpg out of it and they'd sell a lot of units, at least here on the West Coast.

[hiimjered]

Beyond that, a company could optimize the engine for E85 or biodiesel, further reducing the impact on oil usage. E85 cuts mileage on most cars, but if you actually optimize the engine for it, the use it to run a generator. . .

Still it seems that the battery is the weak link in the tech. We need better battery technology to make electric cars completely viable.

[AZhitman]

If you guys could see what we're currently building at http://www.desertfuel.org (we're competing with the team that builds the Aptera), you'd be amazed.

100-hp from an electric motor ain't crap. We're shooting for 400+ lb/ft of torque.

Turbocharged small-displacement Biodiesel engine for regenerative power, as well as solar-cells and regenerative suspension motion recapture (which NO ONE else is doing, to my knowledge).

[bucksnort]

I'm converting my Versa over to CNG. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it Penus owners. CNG is $1.25 gallon

[faction]

Geez, that Aptera looks like it would fly off the road if you got over 50 mph.

this is the 3 wheeled car I want:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...le%29

[kc5f]

Except if you want two people in a Carver you have sit motorcycle style, with one person's legs around the other. In the Aptera there's plenty of space to sit side by side. And it's designed to hold to the ground even at high speeds. There are some interesting videos on Youtube, including it being passed at highway speed by a semi. I don't know if I'd want to try that in a Carver!

[OKVersa]

I live in rural America. Most of our miles are highway miles. It's 50 miles round trip just to the dentist. To buy a dress would be 120 mile round trip.

Hybrids don't make sense to us. We aren't commuters. The politicians and car makers don't really care about us "country folk."

So the Versa was perfect. Hubby wanted a Civic, but the comfort level of the Versa gave it an edge, and it was $4000 cheaper than the Civic he wanted. Also, note that the Versa in the study was the 6-sp. manual. I drive the CVT, so my MPG is less dependent on driver style.

Most people don't keep their cars for more than 5 years anyway, so it isn't paying for itself. I'm hoping that this Versa will last a LONG time!