New Build project and Questions

Discuss topics related to the VH41DE, VH45DE, VK45DE, and VK56DE engines.
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Guishnu
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Hey there folks,I have spent ALL day reading this section of the forum. You have no idea how hard it is to find information on the VH45DE engine. What a fantastic forum. Thanks!

Anyways, Im one of the drivers competing in the European Drift Series (D1 Great Britian) over here in the United Kingdom. For the last 2 years i have been running an S14 (with an S15 front end) with an HKS stroked SR22 DET engine.

For next season (if i get my arse in gear), im hoping to build an S15 with a twin turbo VH45 engine. I seem to have the majority of the information for the build, the only issue i have at the moment is sourcing some stroger con rods and some stiffer valve springs. Any ideas? Are there aftermarket options available?

As you folks seem to have a whole lot more experience than me on building and specing these engines. Would you mind giving me some feedback on my planed spec and letting me know what you think?

VH45DE Engine (out of 92 Nissan Q45)
  • Polished and finished head (looks pretty good as is)
  • Re -profiled cams (256- in 256 out)
  • After market or stiffer valve springs
  • Ferriday copper (ringed) head gaskets
  • Dished, forged pistons
  • Aftermarket con rods
  • New bearings, seals etc
  • Custom- twin inlet plenums
  • Twin VH45DE throttle bodies
  • Twin SARD Fuel Rails
  • SARD 850cc Injectors
  • Custom exhaust manifolds (T25 flange)
  • Twin Garrett GT2835R Turbo's
  • HKS External wastegates with screamer pipes
  • Exedy Twin Plate Clutch and Flywheel (Z32)
  • Z32 Manual Gearbox (with adaptor plate and custom propshaft/gear linkage) From what i have read, cooling could be a big issue with this engine. So i propose running:
  • Twin Setrab 260mm oil coolers with Spal fans
  • RB25DET (R33 Skyline) Koyo Alloy Radiator (with twin spal fans)
  • Transmission cooler (another Setrab item)
  • Fuel cooler (a mocal jobbie)Any other ideas?Not quite sure how to setup the intercooler etc. With two turbos and two plenums. Is it worth while using two intercoolers? Or am i just adding weight... Opinions?

    Fuel System:
  • Twin bosch fuel pumps
  • Forge Motorsport Twin swirl pots with
  • Walbro Scavenger pumps
  • Forge Motorsport Fuel Cell
Apart from the obvious engine mangement issue. Have i missed anything vital? Or does anybody have any feedback/input etc?

Im shooting for 800whp with a 9.1 compression ratio. My theory is that if an SR canrun 400whp easily with a 9.1 compression rato at 1.2 bar of boost, then a VH should be able to do 800whp at well under 1.5 bar.

Or am i living in la la land

If any of you are interested, here is a picture of my current car

Thanks very much in advance!


Modified by Guishnu at 3:19 PM 12/14/2006


canadiandrifter240sx
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Hello and welcome to the vh vk forum.

I am currently building an VHdett for my s13.

You have quite a list of rather expensive parts there., my car will not be built with that much money.

I am also a drifter and compete in Ontario Canada where the drift scene is just starting to take off.

I am not sure how much horse power you want but as far as power needed to drift you sould not need to build the engine internally.

There are some big #'s that com out of these engines unbuilt.Slim's 300zx with a VH45dett, from what I hear is between 500 and 600hp @10psi with T25's

I mean if you have the sponsors to pay for you to build an engine by all means do it, but if you don't have that you can still have the power to drift with ease.

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Guishnu
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Hi there Thanks for your reply...Im aiming for around 800hp at the wheels. I already have a good 450 - 475hp at the wheels to use at the moment with my SR, so im looking for a significant hike. I want to be able to run (and spin) 265/275 section rear tires... LOADS OF GRIP

I want to do this conversion for a few other reasons too...Weight distribution is one. An RB25/RB26/RB30 engine can produce the same power, but you end up with 4 cylinders hanging in front of the cross member (in front of the axel) Which in my mind does not really work. Where as, because the VH engine is only 4 cylinders long. This is not the case.

Also, a 4.5 ltr V8 engine, with two turbos, two external wastegates, two screamer pipes and two side exit exhausts is going to sound f**king mental.
canadiandrifter240sx wrote:Hello and welcome to the vh vk forum.

I am currently building an VHdett for my s13.

You have quite a list of rather expensive parts there., my car will not be built with that much money.

I am also a drifter and compete in Ontario Canada where the drift scene is just starting to take off.

I am not sure how much horse power you want but as far as power needed to drift you sould not need to build the engine internally.

There are some big #'s that com out of these engines unbuilt.Slim's 300zx with a VH45dett, from what I hear is between 500 and 600hp @10psi with T25's

I mean if you have the sponsors to pay for you to build an engine by all means do it, but if you don't have that you can still have the power to drift with ease.

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Mettler
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What kind of RPM are you wanting to pull ? You can run a safe 7500rpm without touching the valvetrain.

P.S. the V8 is actually 4.5 cylinders long, if you account for the offset of the banks ^_^

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Guishnu
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Ahh,Righty, from what i understood from reading the forum - different profiled cams don't go well with the standard valve springs. Is this not the case?I don't really want the engine to rev more than 7500 - 7800.

Also, were does the crossmember sit with relation to the engine? IE: is it pretty much in the middle?

EDIT: It's midnight, im very tired. DUH, the crossmember goes where I DECIDE it to go...
Mettler wrote:What kind of RPM are you wanting to pull ? You can run a safe 7500rpm without touching the valvetrain.

P.S. the V8 is actually 4.5 cylinders long, if you account for the offset of the banks ^_^

mtcookson
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Turbo wise that looks like an HKS number, which I believe is the equivalent of the Garrett GT2871R. I don't believe that turbo has quite the right compressor for what you're looking for. The GT2876R would be able to pull it off, but depending on how much boost you need, it may be out of its peak efficiency spot. The GT3076R has a peak efficiency higher up in the boost range, which might match a little better. That'd be something to look into.

What transmission route are you planning on going with? That I know of, there's not really any way to run a transmission cooler on a manual tranny unless someone makes a sort of oil pump setup for them. I'd definitely run Amsoil in the tranny though as that stuff is proven to lower tranny temps.

Rod wise, most rod manufacturers can make custom rods. Pricey... but that'll be pretty much the only way to go. You may also talk to John Dixon (name and username on here) about rods. I believe he had some custom rods made for his engine and he's in the UK as well.

Good luck with it and definitely take lots of pics... the S15 is very sexy... and even more so with the VH45!

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hannibal
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An 800whp drift car seems a little overpowered...

Youve found THE best VH forum on the web. These guys know their stuff. Welcome to NICO!

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Mettler
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Guishnu wrote:Also, were does the crossmember sit with relation to the engine? IE: is it pretty much in the middle?
I know that my R31 engine bay is more or less identical to an S13 engine bay, so if your S14 engine bay's the same as S13, then you can pretty much duplicate my setup. You'd need to run an RB crossmember if you wanted to copy my mounts though.

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Guishnu
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Hi there,Thanks again for your responses. To cover a few points - The GT2835R is an HKS Unit. I am running a modified version of this turbo on my SR at the moment. It's a fantastic turbo with very good power delivery. If it works well for 4 SR Cylinders, then it should work well for this application. Owen Developments are one of my sponsors (the only offical garrett dealer in Europe, Middle East, Africa etc) So i can get them to pitch in there ideas for tweeking the turbo setup.

I have already established John Dixon as a contact! Top bloke! He says he's going to let me take a gander at his engine. Which will be very helpfull.

Transmission cooler will be a simple pump into cooler setup. No great shakes really.

There is no such thing as an over powered drift car Thanks for your input anyways tho!

Mettler, where do i find info on your engine mounts?

Thanks again everybody!
IWannaS15 wrote:An 800whp drift car seems a little overpowered...

Youve found THE best VH forum on the web. These guys know their stuff. Welcome to NICO!

John Dixon
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Hi Chris! Meant to ask, but are you going to dry sump it? Was thinking oil surge must be a huge problem on drift cars? If you are, I get a good discount off pace on pumps, fittings etc. They might even be interested in some sponsership, drift could be a good new market for them.You can look over my setup when you're over.

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Guishnu
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Thanks a lot John,Im looking forward to seeing your setup! Dry sump is something that interests me, but to be honest i have no experience with them (never used, seen or worked on one before) I think it would be a good idea tho. But it's all down to money etc. I will chat with you about it further when I see you in person!

I have confirmed the order on the 2001 S15 spec R and 92 Q45 today. So it's all going ahead Just got to wait for them to arrive from Japan now.


konatown
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You'll need to reinforce the backs of the chain guides, or this not a problem on the JDM early G50?

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Guishnu
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konatown wrote:You'll need to reinforce the backs of the chain guides, or this not a problem on the JDM early G50?
Konatown,Would you explain what you mean by this (or point me to a thread that will ) I seem to recall there being a chain guide problem on the VH engines, but i have been doing so much reading that my head feels like it's going to explode.

Hopefully when the engine arives, i can document my progress step by step on here and do a "definitave build guide" to help other people.

konatown
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Okay, a synapsis of the readings is this:

The early (90-93) Q45 had plastic backed chain guides for the timing chains. Those are too weak and when they fail = bad news.

zerothread?id=25201

canadiandrifter240sx
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He will be useing a 94 VH so the guides should not be a problem.

This is quite a coincident, Your name is Chris as is mine, we are both drifters, we are both putting VH45dett's into s chassis cars, and we also share the same ideas about the set up, ie twin external waste gates withe screemer pipes, side exit exaust ect....

Just though I would share my thought.

I will shut up now...lol

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Guishnu
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Ohh bugger,Maybe your my long lost canadian (mutant) twin brother who was seperated from me at birth to stop you from knawing limbs of while we dozed in out crib?

Naa mate, it is a little weird. Maybe one day, when we are both famous we can meet up and compare notes and car builds

Konatown, That doesn't look like too bad a job, considering that the engine is going to be stripped bare anyways. Thanks for the input tho mate. I would have felt mighty stupid if i had built a monster engine and forgot to do that.
canadiandrifter240sx wrote:He will be useing a 94 VH so the guides should not be a problem.

This is quite a coincident, Your name is Chris as is mine, we are both drifters, we are both putting VH45dett's into s chassis cars, and we also share the same ideas about the set up, ie twin external waste gates withe screemer pipes, side exit exaust ect....

Just though I would share my thought.

I will shut up now...lol

konatown
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Ah, didn't know you were using a 94 VH45. Your original post had said 92 Q45.

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Guishnu
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I am going to be using a 92.. Faaarrr cheaper than a 94
konatown wrote:Ah, didn't know you were using a 94 VH45. Your original post had said 92 Q45.

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elwesso
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Welcome to NICO!!!

You will definitely want to get new guides, its an easy job and if you do all your planning on doing youll be in perfect position to throw in a new set!

I would first try and see how you like VH with say 450HP... something like 9lbs of boost.... That is a situaiton where you can pretty much take your running Q motor, and bolt some turbos on there and let it go. Friend of mine (slim) with the VH in his Z32 says that the power he's putting out right now is much different than the poewr he had in his twin turbo Z (he had a built VG and took it out for the VH). Theres SO MUCH more torque than you're used ot with a SR or even RB/VG.... I would say in that light of a car, I would try 450 or so, a mild build you can run on a stock motor and see hwo that treats you.

450HP with MORE torque is gonna be a lot different than a 4 banger screaming to get 450HP! Remember that 90% of the torque is available from 2000 RPM to the redline, and thats N/A!!!!

The stock plenum should be good for 600-700HP....I might consider getting a thicker head gasket for lowering the compression instead of dished pistons....

This is the kind of thing that I see with people who build motors... They plan on having to spend all this money, but ona VH, you dont have to, NISSAN ALREADY BUILT THIS MOTOR FOR 500HP FROM THE FACTORY!!!!!!!!!

LIke I said, id try something moderate to see where you end up and then go from there...

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Guishnu
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Elwesso,Thanks very much for all your advice. The main reason why im "building" the engine from scratch, is that i am a firm believer in the "do it once do it right" way of thinking.

Because the car is going to be used for competition drifting, displays and demo in the UK and across western europe - the car has to be as reliable as possible. I can't take the risk that the engine internals are not going to be up to scratch. Im going to have to strip the engine and rebuilt it fresh anyways, so i guess it's better to do it properly.

Even tho the car is going to be built to run 800 wheel hp, there is every chance that it won't be run at that. The car will be mapped for torque.

I guess if i have the means to build it right first time, it's better to do so?

Thanks again for your response!Take CareChris

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elwesso
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Chris I think me and you have different views on how to do things. I always try and get my sh*t running first, get it working so that you know it works and your not bothered with petty details later.... Then, once all the annoying stuff is done, you cna go onto the fun stuff.... I think what that does is it helps maintain focus toward your end goal, which is to build the car and USE IT. People get so focused on the build itself and all the details that they lose focus on what they actually want out of the car! Once you see how it runs "bare bones" you may adjust your game plan, add a little here you didnt think of, and get rid of a little there....

Ive seen so many projects go awry because people lose interest that the "end of the tunnel" is nowhere in sight, and they give up and move onto something that is easier... I hate it when people post things up like this and they just turn into a "statistic"

450HP on a nice VH can happen all day... As I was saying, Slim's VH45DETT has been running on the same motor for the past 3 years, and its almost been daily driven (at one point in time it was).. I can assure you, he does not baby the beast around.... His motor came out of a Q with 140k miles on it!!!! NO REBUILD!!! motor is as strong as ever....

Dont take this the wrong way (seriously), but you seem like the kind of person that thinks "well, i have the means, so I might as well just go balls out" when in fact you may not have to do so..... its like buying parts for the sake of buying parts.... I mean, that is an impressive list of mods, but are they really necessary??? a while back I talked to a guy with a turbo LS400 and he was talking about all these forged rods and pistsons he was running to get 500HP... I was thinking to myself "Man, I can do that with the motor sitting in my Q, AS IT SITS IN MY Q"... Certainly is impressive at shows when you have all these things done to it....

It may seem like 2 steps foreward, one step backwards but I think in the end it becomes more efficient.... Lets say you think 500HP is enough, well you might be able to do that on slightly larger injectors and race fuel instead of bothering with lowering compression ratio and all that fun stuff... if you want the 800, then go ahead and pull the motor out and throw some new internals in.... Good GOD, I couldnt even imagine 500HP in a S chassis!!!!!

I totally understand where your coming from, and this certainly isnt my build and you certainly have more experience building motors than I do, but this is VH land, not your average motor... Again, take my post with whatever grain of salt you feel is necessary, im just trying to offer a point of view that isnt normally considered!

mtcookson
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Guishnu wrote:Hi there,Thanks again for your responses. To cover a few points - The GT2835R is an HKS Unit. I am running a modified version of this turbo on my SR at the moment. It's a fantastic turbo with very good power delivery. If it works well for 4 SR Cylinders, then it should work well for this application. Owen Developments are one of my sponsors (the only offical garrett dealer in Europe, Middle East, Africa etc) So i can get them to pitch in there ideas for tweeking the turbo setup.
I'm not sure what the compressor map would look like from the HKS unit but if it is similar to the GT2871 (basing off of the wheel size and such) it'll definitely make the power you're looking for, but you could actually squeeze a little more out using the GT3076 due to it being noticably more efficient. The compressors between the two are actually quite similar but the GT3076 is slightly more superior. Plus having the anti-surge compressor inlet can have some nice benefits as well.

Either way though... the setup will definitely be awesome. Let us know how it goes.

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Ezekial
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Guishnu wrote:[*]Polished and finished head (looks pretty good as is)
Port matching is poor from the factory. My heads have had this done. Including the throttle body to plenum.Quote »[*]Re -profiled cams (256- in 256 out)[/quote]Standard they are 248 so depending on opening and closing angles (ill assume 4 earlier and close 4 later ... you'll have closing at 72 ABDC and 52 ABDC (vvt)... so 9.0:1 static and 20psi will be a piece of cake ...Quote »[*]After market or stiffer valve springs[/quote]Cant know for sure but i'd say you will definately need a different set of springs for 20psi ... http://www.performancesprings.com.auQuote »[*]Ferriday copper (ringed) head gaskets[/quote]Nizpro run factory head gaskets on their near 1000 hp race boat ... otherwise ACL in QLD australia make triple layer metal gaskets with fire rings (3 different thicknesses available) ... i have a set of these however i'm running the factory head gaskets to begin withQuote »[*]Dished, forged pistons[/quote]drift car so will cop alot of abuse im guessing so it would be wise ...Quote »[*]Aftermarket con rods[/quote]there are sr20's making 400rwhp with standard conrods so i cant see 800rwhp being a problem for the vh45 conrods ... in saying that ... im only going for 600rwhp on pump fuel and i havent changed the conrods. If you must ... the best has to be ARGO. Once again ... made in australia ... morpeth actually ... about 20 minutes from my houseQuote »[*]New bearings, seals etc[/quote]Check grades ... and check grades again ... this was a pain in the arse!! definately change bearings though!!!!Quote »[*]Custom- twin inlet plenums[/quote]I'm running factory plenum. but 2 would be easier for twin turbo!Quote »[*]Twin VH45DE throttle bodies[/quote]Good idea. The standard one is too small for turbocharged applications. I have 2 throttle bodies just have to get a y-pipe made off the plenum.Quote »[*]Twin SARD Fuel Rails[/quote]i'd assume you'll need 2 CUSTOM fuel rails ... but i doubt its needed ... just get bigger fittings on the standard rails.Quote »[*]SARD 850cc Injectors[/quote]I run these. Top choice!Quote »[*]Custom exhaust manifolds (T25 flange)[/quote]T3 flange would be my choiceQuote »[*]Twin Garrett GT2835R Turbo's[/quote]i'm unfamiliar with this turbo. If it is a 2871R of some sort ... i think its too small ... well ... for 800rwhpQuote »[*]HKS External wastegates with screamer pipes[/quote]2 x Tial 44 mm external gates will do the job Quote »From what i have read, cooling could be a big issue with this engine. So i propose running:[*] Twin Setrab 260mm oil coolers with Spal fans[*] RB25DET (R33 Skyline) Koyo Alloy Radiator (with twin spal fans)[*] Transmission cooler (another Setrab item)[*] Fuel cooler (a mocal jobbie)Any other ideas?[/quote]Electric water pump ... or 2 ... with controller

Quote »Not quite sure how to setup the intercooler etc. With two turbos and two plenums. Is it worth while using two intercoolers? Or am i just adding weight... Opinions?[/quote]run what the 300zx's run if you are going to run 2 plenums. ie. 2 in 2 out (right bank turbo feeds left plenum) ... if you are going to run single plenum ... have an intercooler with 2 inlets and 1 outlet or 1 inlet 1 outlet like mine and you just y-pipe the first intercooler pipe

Quote »Fuel System:[*] Twin bosch fuel pumps[*] Forge Motorsport Twin swirl pots with [*] Walbro Scavenger pumps[*] Forge Motorsport Fuel Cell[/list]Bosch 044's will be needed ... 2 of them
Apart from the obvious engine mangement issue. Have i missed anything vital? Or does anybody have any feedback/input etc?
What ecu are you going to use?

You may need a CDI also ... or spitfire coils ... depending on the comp you run

Quote »Im shooting for 800whp with a 9.1 compression ratio. My theory is that if an SR canrun 400whp easily with a 9.1 compression rato at 1.2 bar of boost, then a VH should be able to do 800whp at well under 1.5 bar.

Or am i living in la la land [/quote]what RON/MON fuel??

So 20psi roughly for 800rwhp ...

I'd be looking at 2 x GT3582R's ... and even then i think you're going to struggle to make 1000 flywheel hp @ 20psi ... 950 ish would be my guess ...

I'm talking 98 RON fuel though ...

And with those turbo's ... my guess at your power curve will be this (engine kw)

2000 rpm - 75 kw3000 rpm - 150 kw4000 rpm - 215 kw NOTE THE DIFFERENT BETWEEN THIS ONE5000 rpm - 620 kw AND THIS ONE6000 rpm - 695 kw7000 rpm - 720 kw8000 rpm - 680 kw

Now no offence but UK dyno's are a joke ... so you can pretty much say those flywheel figures will be what a dyno says you have at the wheels

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Ezekial
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sorry for the long post

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Mettler
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I'm with Wes on this, the torque difference with a V8 is going to be immense. You'll find yourself spinning out with a mere 500RWHP with the twin turbo VH setup. I wouldn't bother rebuilding it with expensive internals when they aren't necessary.

John Dixon
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Ezekial wrote:Now no offence but UK dyno's are a joke ... so you can pretty much say those flywheel figures will be what a dyno says you have at the wheels
Only some of them. Too much spitting out big numbers to impress kids!Owen Developments who are sponsering this car are no joke. They do loads of development work for motor manufacturers and their dyno is regularly calibrated. Why they don't tend to be used much by individuals, you get bigger numbers elsewhere!Emerald is the same my car with the VG30DETT made 370rwhp on emerald's dyno, upto 430 elsewhere!!.

canadiandrifter240sx
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I am going the rout that wes suggested, I am geting the car set up with all the need fabrication for the twin turbo and and custom mounts ect... and run the engine stock except for the twin plenum and throttle bodies. I even went as for as makeing sure the engine ran before I started on the twin plenums, this way if it runs different or not at all then I know I messed something up.

The other reason I am doin it this way is, I just don't have the budget. I am pushing my fund just to get this car running. However I am not just doing a engine swap, I am copletely restoring and building the car from bare metal so body and paint will chew up alot of my budget.

If I complete my car before you do and get it dyno'd then I guess you can take note of my set up and it may help with yours. I am not sure what your time frame is for getting your car finished though. Mine should be ready for comp by the spring.

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Mettler
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It's interesting to see you guys with your silvias building drift setups because I feel I've inadvertantly built a similar one myself. About the only things I lack are adjustable castor rods and adjustable lower arms (not necessary to drift anyway).

Thing is, I'm not at all interested in drifting, and I think I've made a bad mistake in my selection of coilovers.... far too stiff!

My build tally only comes to around NZD$20k, this includes the purchase of the car. I expect it'd only be around $5k for a nice twinturbo setup, plus another $2k or so for rollcage.

So just for the sake of it, lets quote a fully rollcaged, manual converted, twin turbo VH41DETT powered, drift setup Skyline... at NZD$30k.

30,000.00 NZD = 20,908.76 USD30,000.00 NZD = 24,099.44 CAD (Canadian)30,000.00 NZD = 10,622.13 GBP (UK pounds)

Do you guys think that's a cheap or expensive build ?

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elwesso
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How much of it did you do yourself???

canadiandrifter240sx
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:48 pm

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My budget sits around $10,000 CAD. And thats to build the car as well as the TT set up. I already have most all the suspension mods already though.I have full multi link adjustable rear susp, Stance coilovers, solid subframe bushings, locked diff, adjustable TC rods adjustable end links in the front and rear sway bar. I need inner and outer ty rods for the front and end links for the rear.

So basiclly I have 10,000 for a caged chissis that needs body and paint and the TT set up. I am not useing top of the line parts though, I will use what fits into the budget and upgrade when the car is built and running.

I got the chassis for free $0.00engine was $800.00 CADZ32 tranny $300.00 CADwith starter and flywheelz32 to vh adapter plate $1063.00 CAD 2 x GT3076 turbo's (not r's) $1003.00 CAD

Thats where the builds sits as of right now, pipe for a roll cage I can get for free and build the cage myself. I guess we will have to see how thrifty I can be for the rest of the build.

Chris


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