Your input is very valuable - timing guides

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firstq
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

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Hi folks - it is about time for me to send my 92 Q in for the timing guides - I have been driving it for the last 8 months w/o taking care of the guides - but I think it is time for it to be taken care of.

However, I need some direction in identifying what additionally to take care of while the guides are being fixed? Also, anything specific to ask for while the service is being written?

Euro imports, now Arizona Imports (Scott) has been performing the work so far. I am hoping I can trust 'em with guides too...

Here is the history of the car:

1. 100K miles, 92 Q452. 8 injectors were replaced by original owner 2 years ago. AC compressor was also changed at the same time.3. Original Tranny (as far a I can tell - still going strong)4. Upper links, Tranny mount, and Fuel pump replaced 3 months ago5. 4 new tires - Yokahama 420 - feels like the car in flying in the clouds6. Valve covers resealed 8 months ago - driver side started to leak just days ago - will be taken care of at the same time (Still under warranty) when guides are being done7. Rack bushings and rack boots replaced 6 months ago8. new tokico blues in the rear

Known problems: Fuel rail leaks & spark plug replacement

Thanks for your help.


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AZhitman
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Car: 58 L210, 63 Bluebird RHD, 64 NL320, 65 SPL310, 66 411 RHD, 67 WRL411, 68 510 SR20, 75 280Z RB25, 77 620 SR20, 79 B310, 90 S13, 92 SE-R, 92 Silvia Qs, 98 S14.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
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Welcome to NICO, firstq - Glad to have you on board. I'll leave the technical answers for some of the more mechanically inclined gents on the board.

What part of AZ are you in? How did you hear about NICO? I'm curious about this shop you mention - tell us more about your Q. Feel free to e-me off board (I'm here in North Phx).

Again, welcome to the club.

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Q451990
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Car: 1990 Q45 - 118K, 2022 Toyota 4 Runner, 2004 Frontier M/T - 108K, 2012 Xterra (Mom's), 2023 Rogue (Inlaws)
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Well, just make sure that when guides are replaced and that if there are any peices sitting in the oil pan that can't be fished out, they remove the oil pan to retrieve them. The water pump is easy to access if it's not recent (more than 60K). Also drive belts, idler pullies (if they feel any roughness at all), etc.

Heath

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DAEDALUS
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Car: 1990 Q45

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For anyone considering doing the job themselves, here's an email I sent out a bit back...Feel free to downright disagree if you think I've made any errors.

Chain guides can be a real bear if you run into any snags, but they are straighforward (but time consuming) if you understand the process and have all the right tools. I will send you a few emails, as I don't think I can cover it all in one sitting. Are you an experienced mechanic or a weekend DIY'er? I'm a learning-as-I-go type.First of all you will need the manual. Not a lot there for this job in particular (they didn't think it was a design flaw, afterall) but the information is mandatory and can be boiled down from what's in the EM section (1st 40 pages or so, I think).Hopefully your guides are fine and none of them are in your oil pan. If they are in the pan, I'm not sure you can get them out without removing the pan.

TOOLS NEEDED Garage tools (jack/stands or ramps, creeper, etc) Common metric sockets (8, 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, 19mm) plus a large one (30 or 31mm I think, not entirely sure) for the crank bolt. You will use the 10mm the most by far. See if you can measure the crank bolt if you don't yet have sockets that large. No sense buying tools you won't need. I'll take a look later to see what I have in my garage. Ratchets and 10 mm wrenches. 18" breaker bar and an extension pipe. The installation of the main bolt requires about 270 foot lbs of torque, so I figure 90 lbs of force on a 3-ft bar will do. A 300 ft-lb torque wrench (maybe). These can be bought or rented, but I just estimated the torque using the 3 X 90 feel. There's always some "margin" built into designs, so I'm probably OK even if I missed the range a little. Large puller--I used one from Sears, about $30. It has done the trick 3 times so far. A 5mm allen wrench socket. This is CRITICAL. We lost an hour the last time I did this job because we didn't have this tool. A chain wrench with a chain long enough to wrap around the main pulley. I used a Sears strap wrench the first 2 times I did this job, but it did fail on me the 3rd time. Whatever you use, you will need a 2nd extension pipe for this as well. If you use a chain wrench, you'll need some scrap fan belt material just long enough to wrap around the pulley. Other common shop tools--pliers, vise grips, magnetic tool pickups, etc.

PARTS NEEDED This will depend on whether you want to replace the timing chains or not. Keep in mind that replacing the chains will take 2x as long, as you will need to remove the valve covers to do it. This may be necessary anyway, as the valve covers tended to leak after several years. The chains *should* last well toward 300k. Mine are at 213K. Scottsdale Infiniti (infinitipartsusa.com) sells a chain guide kit for about $500. This includes the tensioners, chains, sprockets and gaskets you'll need to do the entire job. BUT, if you don't want to do the chains, then just buy the other stuff. I had a post on the old NICO forum about the parts list:http://www.nissaninfiniticlub.....html You won't need the plenum gaskets in the kit, unless you plan to remove the plenum at some point (cleaning, knock sensor replacement, hose replacement, etc). These parts are probably OK at 60k and you can do them later as needed. Not much job overlap. If you do remove the valve covers, you will need to replace all the hoses. Scottsdale also has a kit for this, though I bought them individually so I don't know how complete their kit is. You will also need the cam end seals to do the valve covers. These are small rubber half-moon pieces that go under the valve covers. RTV, oil, coolant. Just replacing what you will remove. Permatex Blue RTV is MUCH easier to work with than Gray, but is rated for a lower temp. Probably just fine, though.

MAIN STEPS IN COVER REMOVAL AND GUIDE REPLACEMENT (NO CHAINS) Remove all plastic trim pieces above and below to expose radiator and cover Drain coolant and remove radiator Remove all belts Remove all belt tensioners Remove metal bracket on PS fluid pump covering front cover Remove coolant hose running across front cover Align the pulley to TDC Remove pulley main bolt and pulley Remove front cover screws--know where the lower cover ends and the upper covers begin. You don't need to remove the upper timing covers. Remove the lower front cover Remove the oil pump chain, guide and sprocket Cinch the timing chains up real tight to prevent jumping a sprocket tooth. This is the most critical step. If you jump time you will either have to do the job over again and have it professionally timed, or you could even destroy the engine Remove the old chain guides, being very aware of the chains loosening as you remove the guides. Re-cinch if needed to be safe. The odds are small you will jump time, but keep in mind there are rotational forces at work on the cams that might suddenly induce some dangerous slack into the chains if they're loose enough Remove the old tensioners Install new tensioners and guides, carefully loosening the chains as needed If you have pieces in the oil pan, now is the time to *try* to fish them out but it might be impossble Install new oil pump chain, guide and sprocket. Clean the mating surfaces of the cover and degrease Apply fresh RTV and install cover with all bolts. Use a torque wrench here if possible Install everything in the reverse order or removal Fill up coolant and oil

That is the outline of the job guide. Straightforward, but it would probably take me 8-10 hours, even on my 4th time. I am willing to expand on any of the steps, but only if you still want do to the job. Keep in mind I did this off the top of my head, and I didn't go into any details. If you have any questions, go ahead and ask. If you decide to do the job, let me know. I'll think of some more tricks for the job. Also, I didn't go into cover removal--that is a larger job, IMO, and I would need to spend more time on that.

Removing the bolt can be done 2 ways...you can use the chain wrench and 2 people (same as installation) OR you can just put the breaker bar on the bolt and rest the breaker bar against the top of the suspension member (driver's side NOT passenger side) and then "pop" the starter motor for a split second. Ensure the injector fuse is pulled first to prevent the motor from firing up. This is a neat trick, though I'm not sure if it shortens the life of the starter. A 2jaw puller will work fine, but it needs to be pretty big. I'm not sure I've ever seen a "bolt on" puller that would work...the bolt pattern on the pulley is very tight and is only for balancing, I think.If you're not planning on doing the chains, I would suggest you do the plenum hoses and the chain guides separately. Again, very little labor overlap between the 2. Take a weekend to do the guides, then after you recover, you can tackle the hoses. Those are far less of a concern.I too was concerned about messing up the car, so I took REALLY good notes on what I did and put colored tape on every disconnected hose and harness. A digital camera is a good investment overall, and a great item to have for working on cars. When I was in college I (thinking I knew it all) took apart my motorcycle and never got it back together. Luckily it was a cheap lesson and it prepared me well for working on a complex car.I've heard good things about Jerry Tucker, but I have never been there myself. My budget being what it is, I am resigned to doing everything possible on my own. Aside from being cheaper, I get better results than the yahoos at the local shops. After doing the plenum, valve covers, chain guides, and suspension, there are only a few things I'm not willing to tackle to save a few bucks. Plus, I like the work most of the time. I am sure too that Jerry Tucker will do a good job, and a SD vacation might be nice.

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DAEDALUS
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Car: 1990 Q45

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The chains I cinched up with a couple tie straps on each one, though wire would work fine. It involves a few iterations to get it right...you need the chains tensioned, but you also need enough slack to remove and replace the guides. The guides are L-shaped, so you have to kind of slide them around and rotate them around the chains to get them out. Again, there isn't a big chance the chains will jump time, but it's important to prevent any sudden movements, like when the cam rotates suddenly because of valve spring load. I didn't see this happening, but that's the goal. RTV--1 tube of Permatex Blue will be plenty...probably enough to do the valve covers too if you were so inclined.The "8" guides? Does that include the oil chain...I'm having trouble remembering if the oil chain takes 1 or 2 guides, but the timing chains take 3 guides each. The original design which you'll pull out only used 2 guides per chain, a slack-side and a tension-side. The slack-side guides were metal originally, so they will be almost identical in design. The tension-side guide is what has changed. You will pull out a single (hopefully) piece of plastic and replace it with 2 pieces. Examine the parts...it will become fairly obvious how they go together when you inspect them and compare them to what you pull out. There is a slot in 1 of the 2 pieces, and the other piece has a boss that fits in the slot. Then match up the bolt holes and install.The 5mm allen socket is used on the tensioner screws--those things are bolted in TIGHT! You won't want to break your fingers using an allen wrench, and if the allen wrench broke, you would be in trouble. Happened to us and it cost us an hour.Some things I just thought of...when you remove all the cover bolts there are a couple places to start prying. One place is from the bottom corner of the cover, near the alternator. There is a small flange there--you can use a screwdriver under the flange to pry the cover from the block. There is another flange on the top edge of the cover just below the water pump, though you may need to remove the pump (5 bolts and RTV) to get to it, depending on your tools. Try to pry/pull as evenly as possible--there is a solid gasket between the lower and upper timing covers that you don't want to damage.Immediately after removing the cover, I strongly suggest you block the crack above the oil pan with towels to prevent any hardware/debris from falling into the oil pan. You'll find a 1/2" opening at the front lip of the oil pan. If by any chance your guides are already broken, you will have to try fishing them out via this gap.Before you replace the cover, be sure to clean both mating faces real well to ensure a tight RTV bond. Again, mind the solid gasket above the cover as you install it--if it gets bent downward it will make life a little hard. Note there is no RTV between the cover and the solid gasket. Once you get all edges in place, tap the cover on with a rubber mallet. Install all screws with a torque wrench...it doesn't take much to break them and is another reason why blue RTV is good. A thicker RTV may not squeeze out fast enough and you will torque at 7 ft-lbs for a while until the screw breaks.Most important of all, give the main pulley at least 2 full turns by hand before starting the car just in case. I installed the main bolt hand tight, and then turned it with a large ratchet a couple times. You'll feel and hear the compresson cycles, and hopefully nothing else. If anything's wrong, now is the time to find out. Torque up the main bolt to 270 ft-lbs before replacing the belts. 2 strong guys are probably best for this step, though you may be able to rest the strap wrench against something (pulley, alternator?). Just be careful not to break anything...that's a lot of torque across such a short distance. About 650 lbs of force at 5" away. The engineering says it will be fine, but my intuition is a worry-wart.

Q45tech
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"Just be careful not to break anything...that's a lot of torque across such a short distance. About 650 lbs of force at 5" away"

You must use long handled tools: the LONG chain wrench handle locks against the frame bracket where the passenger tension rod bolts in.......3 foot handles.....same with tranny a 4 foot extension cuts the time way down........pipe substitute extension flop around and can slip.

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PalmerWMD
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Wow daedalus!

great job as usual, maybe we should consider taking your write-up into our infiniti articles section.

Also a very hearty welcome to you firstq.

Fred...:)

AZQ45
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Car: Q45, G35, My 3 sons, hockey, snowmobiling (when I can)

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firstQ;

It is my understanding that Scott (and his brother) used to work at Infiniti of Scottsdale as a master techs. All the work he has done on my Q has been excellent...you can tell he knows his way around.

I have also walked in to the shop and seen whole Q engines being taken down and rebuilt. He personally did my throttle body cleaning (TCS car) in what appeared to be record time...

He can tell you how your car is running as he has driven brand new 90Qs...good reference point.

I think he is an Infinit nut like many of us...

Good luck!

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AZhitman
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Car: 58 L210, 63 Bluebird RHD, 64 NL320, 65 SPL310, 66 411 RHD, 67 WRL411, 68 510 SR20, 75 280Z RB25, 77 620 SR20, 79 B310, 90 S13, 92 SE-R, 92 Silvia Qs, 98 S14.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
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Great to know for those little jobs that aren't under my warranty.

Think I'll call for a price on a rail / injector flush just to check him out.

firstq
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

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Guys thanks for the input - appreciate it very much.

My understanding reading thru the posts is that there is a timing guide kit that I should be asing Scott to buy from Joe and that has all the things that need to be replaced.

I asked him about the oil pump chain and he said he will change it only if it needs replacement - this is the kind of info that I needed that while you are there, might as well replace it (the additional cost is just the parts with no more labor costs).

So what I plan to ask for includes:

1. change all belts ( my assumption is that he will be taking 'em off anyways - so should be no more labor)2. Radiator fan is breaking - so replace that as well3. While resealing the valve covers - put the new plugs in4. Do the oil pump chain at the same time guides are done

The car is going to him on Monday - will post the experience.

Thanks again for all the input.

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DAEDALUS
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Yes, there's a kit, but I wonder if it's worth doing the timing chains. You have 1 cover leaking, which means the other cover won't be resealed under warranty, and will cost quite a bit to have R&R'd. The chains you have now will probably last another 200k, and by then you will probably need to reseal both covers at least once more, at which point you could do the chains. Kind of a wash maybe. By NOT doing the chains it sounds like you might save $5-600, without much downside. Just making a point for discussion. Opinions, guys?

firstq
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Okay, if it is going to cost me considerably more in labor & parts - then I may end up not doing the oil pump chains.

DAEDALUS, you brought up a good point - only one side valve cover will be resealed - would it be okay to just replace the plugs of that bank?

Thanks

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DAEDALUS
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So the rubber plugs are original? What a dilemma. My fear is that within a year the other side will begin leaking too. If they were both going to be resealed under warranty, I would probably say sure, go ahead and do the chains for $150 more. I'll wait for more feedback from other members. Maybe you can negotiate a good deal on the labor to do the other side and the chains. They might have the same concern about it leaking (under warranty), and would rather take care of it now. Definitely do the oil chain. It isn't more than 5 minutes of work once they're in there, and the chain sure doesn't cost much.

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PalmerWMD
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The oil cain is just a few bucks (or less) if memory serves.The oil pumps in Q's are pretty good, the only two failure modes I have ever heard of in 3 years plus in the Infinti internet community were due to very bad oil change habits (sludge) and the other (you guessed it) oil pump chain.I think there are oilpump chain guides also that go with the chain they are also VERY cheap.

Fred...:)

DougQ45
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Just did 2 guide replacement jobs with the expert help of Daedalus. 1990 with 89,000, and 1991 with 185,000. REPLACE THE OIL PUMP CHAIN AND GUIDE!!! It is about $33 and is great insurance. The 1991 with 185,000 had ALOT!! of oil pump chain stretch. Also, when you have the radiator out, take it to a shop and have it cleaned out. It's only a $65 bill (max) and well worth it. The 1990 I just did runs very cool even in the hot LA summer with AC running.

Pineappleexpress
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Car: Drag Racing
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OK I am trying to help my neighbor and his 1992 Q45. The car is extremly clean. We live here in Las Vegas and I have seen him get ripped off by local stealers. So I have changed his pwr steering pump, boots on his rack, radiator. Now he has some oil leaks from the valve covers into the plug wells. This was noticed by the stealer and he told them to forget that. For the last year I have been looking for a good shop manual for him? So I can do more work to help him. It appears that the passenger valve cover is awfuly tight to the A/C canister (reciever dryier). I have doubts about removeing it with out a dishcharge and rechage when done. I see from above in Arizona there appears to be a specialty shop. A Scott and his brother? can some one post the URL for the shop and possibility of a phone number? I would send this neighbor down there references would be nice too. Is the shop a reasonable priced shop?.

But I would sure like to get a real shop manual.

Thanks:icesangel

firstq
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

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Scott of Euro importscell = 602-768-2740

he resealed both sides valve covers ($300) back in January 2002.

May be he gave me this price for making me a permanent customer( which I have been). Other independents quoted around $600-$700 for the same job.

If he wiggles on the price, remind him of my case ("Arshad") just to recollect his memory - by the way my car is going to him tonight for the guides.

He will not be in until late tonight...

Good luck

Pineappleexpress
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Thanks! I'll talk to my neighbor! :ylsuper

Lazn
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:42 pm

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You never actually said, but I am curious, how much does Euro want to do the Guides. I need to do it on my 93, but I am considering trading the car in on a 95 I found here in Phoenix.

==>Lazn

firstq
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

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I had a bunch of service done at the same time - so I am not sure how much he charged me only for the guides. One thing you need to remember that pehaps the majority of this is labor, which a service manager have some room to adjust.

My final bill was something like $1700 hundred - but it included a number of other things (including partial payment on extended warranty plan that I had on this car at the time). Anytime warranty is involved generally service writers jack up the price knowing it is not coming out of your pocket.

1. guides (including parts and labor)2. all spark plugs changed (he was in there for the valve cover reseal from a previous job and it leaked within warranty, so atleast the cost of plugs should be accounted for in the total of $1700)3. Replaced motor Fan and associated belts (all 3)4. Radiator chemically flushed at some other ship while it was out5. power steering main hose replaced (part + labor)6. Oil pan reseal (I asked for it to remove guide pieces etc)7. Oil pump chain was replaced (asked for it explicitly)8. Perhaps some other stuff (it should be all listed on my other thread )

Goodluck - Scott is a good guy, make sure you ask him to do all what you want done, he is usually not the one who will push you for all the work (it is your job to know what needs to be done to save labor charges later on). For example, I asked for the radiator flush as it was already out, he just charged me for what the flush shop charged ($70) extra and he got it done.

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AZhitman
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Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:04 am
Car: 58 L210, 63 Bluebird RHD, 64 NL320, 65 SPL310, 66 411 RHD, 67 WRL411, 68 510 SR20, 75 280Z RB25, 77 620 SR20, 79 B310, 90 S13, 92 SE-R, 92 Silvia Qs, 98 S14.
Location: Surprise, Arizona
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Lazn - Welcome to NICO!

Good to have another Phoenix Q owner on board. Where did you find the 95 Q?

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PalmerWMD
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Car: 2004 350Z

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firstQ

You obviosly got a good deal.

If you are fully satisfied with this job, we might take that shop into our recommended Infinti shops list.

Fred..:)

firstq
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

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Fred, the car is still running - so he did what he was supposed to do. In Phoenix, he is the only one I am aware who will do a good job for the money. The alternatives are orders of magnitude expensive. he does not have all the bells and whistles (for example I do not think he has a Consult either) - but for problems that we know the fix for, he is the right guy to do the job. all the work has been done by Scott on my car, and so far so good. I do not get Dealer service, but I am not paying for one either.

Again, I have asked him to do specific work and he has been very good in doing those - I have not gone to him for diagnosing a particular problem. Also, I do not think he is full service, for example he does not have the Transmission flush service (only pan drop and flush - no machine). Just to give some ideas, but in Phoenix he is our version of T3 - may be T2 or T1...LOL
PalmerWMD wrote:firstQ

You obviosly got a good deal.

If you are fully satisfied with this job, we might take that shop into our recommended Infinti shops list.

Fred..:)

Lazn
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:42 pm

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AZhitman wrote:Lazn - Welcome to NICO!

Good to have another Phoenix Q owner on board. Where did you find the 95 Q?


I tell you and it will be gone, it is a good deal ($4495). My guess is that because I did not get it over the weekend it is probably already gone. I found it at Double Eagle Motors on 7th st (or av, but I think st) I have been there a few times. (never purchased from there) The sales people are not pushy, so it is the type of place I would buy from if a good enough deal was available. (I truely detest pushy sales people)

==>Lazn


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