Emanage Tuning

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Edub1
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I think I searched & read so much I've totally confused myself.

My setup:

T3 super 60460cc injectorsBlue Emanage/ ignition harnessWalbro 225

Goal:

About 225HP till I replace the clutch, them perhaps 275HP.

Question:

I will need to set Emanage for 460 injectors.

But, will the ECU keep adding fuel under boost or does the stock ECU run off its map and stop delivering more fuel earlier than what will be required?

That is to say, will I have to calculate the increased fuel demand and adjust for this or will the stock MAF & ECU handle this leaving me only to adjust the Emanage for fine tuning? Or does this happen only when the stock MAF is exceeded?

Also, I'd like to keep my A/F ratio around 12.1 and pull some timing. At 225HP(7lb?) Can I just leave my A/F ratio alone and pull .75 or so /lb?

Lastly, and sorry for all the questions but it will make for a good thread - should I buy the Emanage pressure sensor?


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LEMHEAD16
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I run almost exactly the same set up as you are shooting for.

My first suggestion would be to buy the pressure sensor. With it you can adjust your fuel and timing tables based on manifold pressure rather than throttle postion. You have already spent the money for the EM might as well make it perform as well as it can.

I have been extremely happy with the emanage so far. It is fairly easy to tune with and can DL alot of different values.

BTW I made ~220ish HP and ~260ft/lb @10 PSI on KA24E and I would be happy to share my maps with you.

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Edub1
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That would be great. Can you upload them here?

What did you wind up doing with fuel?

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C-Kwik
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The E-Manage (Blue) works by altering the MAF signal to teh ECU to compensate for the larger injectors. It basically reads the MAF voltage so it knows what the actual airflow is, then converts it to a lower voltage based on the size of your injectors so that the ECU thinks the car is getting less air. This causes the ECU to output a shorter injector pulsewidth.

There are a few flaws I should point out. Under part throttle conditions, the ECU uses O2 sensor feedback to adjust fuel flow into the motor. It basically wants to get to the ECU's preset A/F for the given throttle and airflow. This means at throttle positions close to WOT where boost can occur the AF ratio can be come lean for having boost as the ECU will try to compensate. You may be able to use the E-Manage's additional injection map which extends the injector durations(by adding it's own ground source to open the injector), but I am not sure of the details of it. IIRC, the manuals had stated that it adds a certain percentage more than the actual injector signal. So I don't know if it will be able to keep up with the ECU as the ECU may shorten the injector duty cycle even further.

Secondly, you should consider the MAF you are going to use. The factory MAF (S14) is rated to 260-280 WHP depending on who you ask. Either way, the E-Manage can only read up to 5 volts. I tend to believe the MAF actually outputs slightly more. When I had datalogged 6.5 PSI on my S14, it hit 5 volts well before redline. So the E-Manage only output 4.6 volts to the ECU from the point the MAF saw 5 volts to redline. The injector duty cycle at this point flatlines as well and can never reach 100%. Essentially, you can't use the full potential of the injectors. It seemed to work fine for me at 6.5 psi, but at higher boost levels, you will definitely need to go to a bigger MAF. You'll want to choose one that does not hit more than 5 volts in the airflow range you will be running. YOu may be able to play with the mapping and make adjustments, but they would no longer be able to be based on the MAF reading. You can choose to use the the pressure sensor like Lemhead said as well, but I tend to like using once source as opposed to switching between two. It's not as linear from a tuning standpoint. I'm more biased to using MAFs as well though as they actually read airflow as opposed to having to calculate it based on pressure and known volumetric efficiency.

Lastly, there will be timing changes made by the ECU. As the ECU will be reading lower airflow, it will think there is less load. To compensate, it will bump up timing. With 360 cc injectors, the change wasn't much. I'd suspect it to be higher with 460cc injectors. The E-Manage can alter timing with the optional harness, but it only makes a relative adjustment, not an absolute one. Unless you know where the timing is at and where it wants to be, you'ld be tuning by ear. You may want to invest in a knock sensor to help you with this unless you plan to tune on a dyno with the assistance of a datalogger.

If you have not bought one yet and can afford the premium, maybe invest in the E-Manage Ultimate. While I have no personal experience with it, from what I know of it, it's more of a hybrid piggy-back. It has the ability to work like a regular E-Manage, or as a partial stand-alone. It can intercept the injector signal completely and provide its own. Meaning the actual airflow readings can be sent to the ECU so that timing can be run off the ECU based on the ECU's mapping. And it will eliminate the issue where the ECU fights the E-manage as the E-Manage will be controlling the injectors completely. This also allows you to use the entire range of the MAF signal up to the 5 volt cap. According to my source, you only spend about $25 more for the Ultimate with the full harness as opposed to the Emanage blue with the full harness and pressure sensor hardware. I think that's really good considering you will not need a pressure sensor unless you max out the MAF or are unwiling to swap it for a larger one. And it eliminates the timing and part throttle boost woes associated with piggybacks.

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Edub1
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Well, thanks for taking the time to offer all that info. These are defenitly good things to be aware of.

I got the blue for $200 with tool & ignition harness which is substantialy less than the Ultimate.

I'm wondering though, you say you maxed the stock MAF at 6.5lbs? I'm assuming you were making far more HP than I will be at similar boost? What I'm wondering is whether the MAF will function up to 225HP for the time being.

As for timing, perhaps I will buy a knock detector and pull a little extra. From what you're telling me, it might also be a good idea to go with 370cc instead of 460?

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C-Kwik
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Can't argue with a good deal.

I estimate that I was in the 230 HP range. Both times I dyno'd the car with the turbo, I had issues(loose turbo reslting in poor turbine seal, and a loose wastegate). The higher of the 2 came out at about 200. I noticed the boost resulting sluggishness just before I got to the dyno and on the way home. I figured out when I got home and it felt much better. XS dynos the kit at 227 WHP so it should be right there with everything working. So the MAF was maxing out where you might as well. Keep in mind, I do speculate the MAF may actually output more voltage that 5 volts. I've heard someone mention something like this before, but I can't confirm the source. If this is indeed the case, the E-Manage(blue and probably the ultimate also) are presenting a limiting factor as well. But mine functioned okay. I never ran it with a wideband so I'm not sure how much of a cushion I had. Eitherway, I'd be carefule with it. I backed off timing a bit towards redline to be sure as I did hear some light detonation on hot days at hgher RPM's.

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LEMHEAD16
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If only I hadn't loaned my lap top to my mom for awhile i could tell you exactly what my MAFS was reading at peak HP and Post my Maps up for you. As soon as I get it back I will shed some more light on this topic but that won't be for a couple of weeks.

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virus77
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Its a good thing to get the pressure sensor. This way you can tune on manifold pressure which is easier, also you dont need to upgrade your mafs, which saves you ~130 (z32 mafs). Ive had it on my KAT and SR20 both with stock mafs and both are maxing the mafs out and then some. The mafs gets used in the normal daily driving so drivabilty doesnt change and you dont need to really tune for street driving and when boost comes on the pressure sensor is whats used to add fuel so its all kosher.

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xero1
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where do you download maps for the emanage?

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C-Kwik
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virus77 wrote:Its a good thing to get the pressure sensor. This way you can tune on manifold pressure which is easier, also you dont need to upgrade your mafs, which saves you ~130 (z32 mafs). Ive had it on my KAT and SR20 both with stock mafs and both are maxing the mafs out and then some. The mafs gets used in the normal daily driving so drivabilty doesnt change and you dont need to really tune for street driving and when boost comes on the pressure sensor is whats used to add fuel so its all kosher.
I dunno man. Swapping in a diffrent MAFS would only require you to select wich MAFS you are using and then use the injector size compensation tool and most of your tuning is done. At that point it would just be fine tuning. With a pressure sensor you need to run two maps that do not use the same inputs. While I wouldn't consider it rocket science, tuning with one or the other entirely would be much more linear. And my understanding is the pressure sensor is not designed to read in and tune in vacuum.

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C-Kwik
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xero1 wrote:where do you download maps for the emanage?
Other than maps that others have made you would have to create your own. Greddy doesn't release their KA-T map to the public. The one that comes with their turbo kit is protected by a password.

DRIFTEADOR
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yes, the emanage pressure sensor recognizes vacumm. fyi, its the same sensor that the greddy boost gauge uses so if you have a greddy boost gauge you dont need to buy an extra sensor, just hack up (there's information on on the web on where to find a plug that fits the emanage) or buy the harness. if you dont have a gauge get it and kill 2 birds w/ one stone.

why you'd want to tune in vacumm i don't know. the motor shouldn't need any extra fuel off boost, it would be running like stock, you only want to add fuel and pull timing DURING boost. another reason to use the pressure sensor. i'm with virus, imo, the pressure sensor makes tuning easier all around. not only with fuel but with timing as well. its easier to retard timinng .50/.75/1/whatever you want degrees per pound of boost basing off pressure rather than airflow.

what i would recommend is getting the pressure sensor, adjusting for injector size, and adjusting timing before tuning to compensate for the injector size change, before tuning. that way you start off with base/stock timing. heres whats supposed to be a stock timing table, converted to pressure, that i saved a while back. iirc, it was posted by enthalpy:



100kpa is 1 bar, represented here as atmospheric press. not boost

for example, to make it easy we'll say 550cc injectors, twice as big as stock, for a 50% correction. if the ecu is seeing half the maf output then timing at WOT (100kpa) should be what the table shows for 50kpa. from left to right:

13, 25, 35, 39, 40, 38, 39, 37, 35, 35, 35, 35

insteado of:

5, 15, 20, 23, 26, 27, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26

subtract and you get:

8, 10, 15, 16, 14, 11, 15, 13, 11, 11, 9, 9

so your 100kpa line on the emanage timing map should read something like

-8, -10, -15, -16, -14, -11, -15, -13, -11, -11, -9, -9, before any tuning is done

this may not be dead on, but its a good basemap

btw, virus, i remember you had a consult port logger, can you verify any of this

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virus77
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I used an OBDII scan tool actually.

The boost pressure sensor is tons better than tuning based of the mafs signal. Ive ran the setup on two different cars for over two years and its easier and better than tuning of mafs signal just for your ability to tune your timing numbers alone in such an easy manner. Also off boost you dont need any tuning to be done, since the injector correction works with or without the boost sensor so all you do is add fuel and retard timing(if neeeded) in the boosted maps to get your desired results, its easy as cake.

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Edub1
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You lost me a little here with all the math. I should tell you that I haven't started messing with the Emanage yet so I'm not familiar with the screens.

How does injector size come into play when dealing with timing and doesn't the Emanage make those corrections for me, behind the scenes?

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Edub1
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DRIFTEADOR wrote:yes, the emanage pressure sensor recognizes vacumm. fyi, its the same sensor that the greddy boost gauge uses so if you have a greddy boost gauge you dont need to buy an extra sensor,
I heard that is true of the boost/hold/warning gauge. Is this true of the standard boost gauge also.

Big price difference.

DRIFTEADOR
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piggyback fuel managment works by altering the maf output signal (thats why you cut the maf wire, instead of splicing into it like the others). when you install bigger injectors, in order to give the engine the same amount of fuel, the emanage tells the stock ecu that theres less airflow. theoratically it would cut airflow output by half for injectors twice the size of stockers. so far so good, but what a lot of people dont realize is that doing this bumps timing since the stock maps advance timing as airflow decreases in any given rpm (refer to the table above)

no piggyback that i know of automatically fixes timing. it would require a database of stock timing tables for different applications, they wouldn't go through all that trouble.

i think any electronic boost gauge would work. if i'm not mistaken they all use the 3bar sensor. the warning/peak one just has more wires for the warning/peak functions.

virus, would you mind posting your timing?

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deviousKA
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Actually that is one of my ignition tables

Do you guys need an example of the original timing map? It is referenced to load (TP) but we have quite a bit of that figured out these days including approximate atmospheric TP.


DRIFTEADOR
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my mistake. i knew it was one of you masterminds

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Iamjohnhayes
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hey sorry to quasi thread jack but...

Has anyone here used e-Manage Ulitimate. And If so have they tunned with the pressure sensor. I have the Ultimate e-manage sitting in my room waiting for me to double check my pin out diagram a few more times. I know one of the major differences is that the ultimate can actually control every injector individually and directly. Also it only has one harness (its like a combination of the two blue harnesses and a 3rd ultimate only harness).

It would also be helpful if anyone knew which color on which plug the pressure sensor connects to.

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virus77
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I dont have the ultimate but would love to play around with one. The beauty of that is that the injector correction is done by altering injector signal aswell and not the mafs so the timing changes dont occur which normally happens on a piggyback. however even the standard emanage ADDS fuel by using the injector drivers but it doesnt intercept them and actually CHANGE (add or subtract) like the ultimate.

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Edub1
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virus77 wrote:I dont have the ultimate but would love to play around with one. The beauty of that is that the injector correction is done by altering injector signal aswell and not the mafs so the timing changes dont occur which normally happens on a piggyback. however even the standard emanage ADDS fuel by using the injector drivers but it doesnt intercept them and actually CHANGE (add or subtract) like the ultimate.
Could you be more specific because the blue wires up to injectors as well. I'mjust not sure how the whole thing works. If you know more about this, please share.

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Edub1
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deviousKA wrote:Actually that is one of my ignition tables

Do you guys need an example of the original timing map? It is referenced to load (TP) but we have quite a bit of that figured out these days including approximate atmospheric TP.
Always interested to hear the state of things over at hybridka.com.

Would it be possible to tune with my emanage and translate the results to an eprom tune? I just can't see paying for dyno time while I mess around with an eprom burner. It's not my area of expertise. Some times you just gotta do what you do and let other people do what they do. You know what I mean?

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virus77
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the blue TAPS into the injector wire allowing you to effectively ADD fuel. The ultimate intercepts the injector signal alltogether and then ouputs its own signal to your injectors.

regular blue emanage works like this:

Lets say you get into boost and the car is putting in 60% fuel (in the form of duty cycle for the sake of argument, this is what the stock ecu is putting in) and your car is running a 13 AFR throught the powerband. You go ahead and add lets say 10 % in the injector correction maps in the correct load and rpms cells and the emanage adds the 10% to the stock cars 60% and theortically brings the AFR down to a 12:1 which is where you should be at. These numbers are all for the sake of this conversation. the emanage ultimate works differently, I dont think you should confuse yourself over that but I can explain that aswell.

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Edub1
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I get it. My main question is, if I have 225HP will my stock MAF compensate for the increase in air and keep the A/F ratio at say 13:1 untill I reach its max (which most say is 270HP)? Or will it reach a final map cell value and top out earlier?

I posted an article called "you can be too rich" by Klause whats his name (big shot engineer) from Inovative Motor Sports. In it, Klause pointed out that running rich, although common, is not the proper way to tune. He says that the same can be achived from retarding spark a little more.

The science behind this is as follows. Because the oxygen is used up, adding fuel causes a physical (molecular kinetic) interfearence within the combustion reaction causing it to proceed at a slower rate. Another way to look at this is to picture useless gas or water or whatever you inject, molecules hanging around, getting in the way of things and slowing progress. It is in fact nothing more than chemical, rather than electrical timing retard. The concept of "charge cooling," as Klause points out is a common misnomer that doesn't really exist. He gives data.

Any way, now that I've saddled a tangent and rode it off into the sunset, I think I'm going to take Klause's advise and keep A/F ratios stock and just pull timing. I just want to know if the stock MAF will do this for me or if the ECU will hit a tp wall before I get there.

BTW, we have 94 octane pump gas with ethanol here in Detroit.

DRIFTEADOR
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no, the stock ecu wont compensate for that much power

regarding klauses article:Quote »Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability[/quote]thats the reason why we run rich and sacrifice a little fuel/power.

ps KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)


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Edub1
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Yes, knock is avoided by way of molecular kinetics. What is important is to focus on the main point of the artical.

His main point was that although knock can be avoided this way, it is more proper to do it with more spark retardation instead of the chemical retardation employed when running rich.

The artical gets technical in some areas but this is his main point. There is also a video for the LM1 that touches upon this briefly.

DRIFTEADOR
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cool, you try 13:1 on boost and come tell your blown motor story.

if a faster traveling flame front is what you want don't bother with 94 octane, the higher the octane, the slower it burns. go for 87 and have you plugs fire right at tdc

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fiznat
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Good discussion on the Emanage guys, I'm going to add this to the stickey list. Keep it going

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Edub1
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DRIFTEADOR wrote:cool, you try 13:1 on boost and come tell your blown motor story.

if a faster traveling flame front is what you want don't bother with 94 octane, the higher the octane, the slower it burns. go for 87 and have you plugs fire right at tdc
I'm just explaining what Klause said in his artical. If you disagree, that's fine but perhaps you might try doing it without the sarcasm.

That type of thing really gets in the way of meaningfull discussion.

The artical is called "You can be too rich." perhaps you would like to respond to his arguments in that thread so we can keep this one about Emanage tuning. I look forward to reading your rebuttal in that thread should you chose to offer one.

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Edub1
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Anyone know where the stock ECU map maxes out with regard to A/F ratios?


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