ATF Quanity

[Aussie Q45a]

'89 JDM Q45a 95000 K'sThe FSM tells me that the Auto holds 10.5 litres of ATF. Seems a lot to me. Would someone confirm that this is correct please. Also is Mobil ATF the best to use?Thanks Aussie

[elwesso]

Thatis how much is in the transmission, this information would be used for transmission flush people, they can tell how much fluid has been exchanged and once the entire transmission has been exchanged, then your good to go...

The pan only holds about 3-4 qts

[Aussie Q45a]

Wes, all I was going to do was drain the oil out via the drain plug in the pan and top it up with new oil. If I'm reading you right I have to take the car to a Auto place and they have some sort of machine that connects to the transmission to FLUSH it out.When I checked the oil level it was way up the dip stick, well over the full mark, but looked pretty clean. I thought I had better drain some out to drop the level on the stick. I droped about 1/2 gallon into a bucket and it didn't look real healthy (pretty black) so all I was going to do was pull the bung and drain the rest out then fill up with (10.5 L??) new Mobil ATF. Will I be doing the wrong thing and can I damage the Auto by doing this.

Is there an aditive you guys recommend to put in the Auto?

[elwesso]

I assume you checked the fluid when it in park while it was hot....?

My honest opinion is just drain whatever you can from the pan, and then refill with that amount... If oyu want a full exhange you will want to do it the other way listed..... go to somewhere and have them do an exchange....

[Aussie Q45a]

I assume you checked the fluid when it in park while it was hot....?

My honest opinion is just drain whatever you can from the pan, and then refill with that amount... If oyu want a full exhange you will want to do it the other way listed..... go to somewhere and have them do an exchange....

Cheers

[DominickJ30]

You need to check fill level with the car on fully warmed up with the shifter moved through all positions. What you most likely checked was standing height.

[JedCoop]

Maybe this applies only to my '92, but I always put in about an 1/2 quart extra (4 total after a drain) If it is lower (normal on my dip stick) I notice that it shifts slower, especially when cool. I have the original transmission with over 190K on it.

[Aussie Q45a]

I know this is a real dump Question but where is the best place to pour in the ATF. Is it the dip stick tube?

[DominickJ30]

I know this is a real dump Question but where is the best place to pour in the ATF. Is it the dip stick tube?

Yea thats the only place to pour it in.

[Aussie Q45a]

TA!

[elwesso]

You dont have ot be as exact on the ATF level as the oil, becuae theres a thing that will blow off excessive oil if theres too much...... I usually err on the side of too much vs not enough...

[maxnix]

Is there an aditive you guys recommend to put in the Auto?

Q45tech runs 6 oz.of Lubeguard Red in his with M1 ATF. I don't.

But total replacement of ATF is only available with a mechanical flush.

Drain and fill is just about useless as all you are doing is slightly diluting your degraded ATF.

[DAEDALUS]

Mechanical flush is not total replacement, according to Q45tech. High 80s-mid 90s %. Repeated drain and fills can give the same percentage depending on how much is removed each time. I've measured 5-7+ quarts on 3 different Qs. Still wondering if the smaller numbers reported are from actual measurements. If you can get 7 quarts each time on 2 drain and fills on a '90 Q, with thorough mixing (driving) in betwen, you're just over 90% replaced. Even if you only get 5 quarts, you get over 70% replaced after 2 rounds, just under 90% after 3.

[maxnix]

1.) Mechanical flush is not total replacement, according to Q45tech. High 80s-mid 90s %. 2.) Repeated drain and fills can give the same percentage depending on how much is removed each time.

1.) Have a quote? I have never read that. I imagine a mechanical flush is 95%- 99% replacement. Hell, when new fluid is running out, there is not much left as even the old fluid clinging to internal parts is rinsed by the new fluid.

2.) Here, I have to ask about the contaminated sediment in solution. What is moving it? Recycling contaminated fluid by diluting it is just that - contaminated fluid. It can never be as clean as fresh fluid.

I am not buying these statements.

[elwesso]

if you do the thing where you time the running at idle, where the fluid does one "lap" through the transmission, I dont see how you can beat or refute that.. Do thta 3 times and I bet youve done better than a flush, and saved money to boot...

Remember, the mechanical exchange machine uses the transmission pump (at idle) to move the fluid. Whats the difference between putting it in the pan and recirculating it that way than putting a feed line on the cooler???

[DAEDALUS]

1.) Have a quote? I have never read that. I imagine a mechanical flush is 95%- 99% replacement. Hell, when new fluid is running out, there is not much left as even the old fluid clinging to internal parts is rinsed by the new fluid.

zerothread?id=42433

The fluid sits in a large pan, from which a small pickup sucks fluid. There is mixing going on in the pan when fluid is returned. It is not entirely "first in, first out" like a train. It isn't reasonable to expect 100% replacement just because you remove and replace the volume the system holds, regardless of what method is used. Nothing wrong with any of them if you're not needing a filter replacement, just know what to expect.

[Aussie Q45a]

Mechanical flush is not total replacement, according to Q45tech. High 80s-mid 90s %. Repeated drain and fills can give the same percentage depending on how much is removed each time. I've measured 5-7+ quarts on 3 different Qs. Still wondering if the smaller numbers reported are from actual measurements. If you can get 7 quarts each time on 2 drain and fills on a '90 Q, with thorough mixing (driving) in betwen, you're just over 90% replaced. Even if you only get 5 quarts, you get over 70% replaced after 2 rounds, just under 90% after 3.

The Auto shop I rang recons he uses 15 L per flush, he drops the pan and replaces the filter (is there a filter in the transmission). Total cost $400. As a dedicated DIYer I contemplated doing the "drop & drive" solution X3..... 5>7 Quarts each time. AT $10 per US Quart (1 US Quart= 946 ml. ... 1000ml = 1 L) appprox $150>$210 for ATF, this probaly won't be as good as a machanical flush but has got to be an economical way to streach to Q's rehab/maint. $$$$. Maybe one 5-7 Quart transmission oil "rejuvination" at each engine oil change might help improve the transmission's life???? . Anyone know what's in the LUBEGUARD RED that Q45tech uses. The only additive I can find for transmission's is a LUCAS product that is ment to stop leaks and I don't have any leaks (yet!). The guy at shop recons UNIGLIDE is the ducks guts, anyone heard of it?CheeersAussie


Modified by Aussie Q45a at 12:57 PM 7/24/2005

[maxnix]

Thanks for the quote, Rob. I wonder if that statement is an endorsement for the SUn system where the pump is external? My fluid is so near new that is its difficult to see the difference, but is there. I probably could not see an 85% new 15% old under these conditions.

Two thoughts occur to me. One, if only 85% exchange is achieved, then 15% of the chemical lush still remains in the transmission after the exchange. Not a good conditon.

Secondly, three drop and drains will get you to about 85% new, but 15% contaminated is not a good starting point, and the remaining 15% becomes more contaminated with each successive flush, so there are diminishing returns expecially past the fourth or fifth flush. Seems like Q45tech's history on his second OEM transmission (almost 200K miles, annual flushes first 173K miles) would belie this.

I think a call to BG would be a good start to see what they say. It would be most helpful if any lab did an analysis for ATF like is done for oil, but I know of none.

Regardless, I will still have mine flushed mechanically, but will dontinue to avoid the chemical flushes until the ATF degradation becomes more detectable. Q45tech never says a drain and fill is as good as a mechanical exchange. I'll stick with his proven regimen.

[maxnix]

Don't know about Uniglide, but Lucas additives are harmful in the extreme.

I'll see if I can find some and record the ingredients. Hell, I can send you some if need be.

[szh]

This is one of the reasons I did a double flush (with pan drop in between) on my 1995 Q45. This process used 28 quarts of ATF! Overkill? Perhaps!

Z

[Aussie Q45a]

Regardless, I will still have mine flushed mechanically, but will dontinue to avoid the chemical flushes until the ATF degradation becomes more detectable. Q45tech never says a drain and fill is as good as a mechanical exchange. I'll stick with his proven regimen.

Your a great bloke maxnix,, ...but where would AMERICA be today whith that sort of thinkin' . I'm with you all the way on chemical flushes......but as a DIYer have WE checked out all the alternatives yet ???

[maxnix]

This is one of the reasons I did a double flush (with pan drop in between) on my 1995 Q45. This process used 28 quarts of ATF! Overkill? Perhaps!

Z

One can mitigate the expense of this ultimate flush by using standard Mobil ATF for the first sequence.

Aussie, try it with M1 (complete replacement) first. If you don't like the shift quality, I'll send some Lubeguard Red down under.

Like I say, I don't use it, but I am not in Q45tech's league of diagnosing automotive behavior. My cars are between 62K - 72K miles with near pristine fluid when flushed. I love my shift quality on all 3.

[DrewQ45]

I keep seeing "chemical flush" being mentioned and it makes me think along the lines of motor flushes which claim to remove some varnish and unblock passages. Maybe I'm not reading enough but what products would you use to do this? (and I don't mean additives as those are there to enhance fluid performance) Also, if chemicals are being added, how many drains would it take to get it out of the system where it wont harm viscosity?

...Drew....

[maxnix]

There is a good post (actually several) by Q45tech about why a flush is chemical (cleaning and solvents) and a mechanical fluid exchange is something done immediately after the flush is added.

Since you are in Atlanta, might as well take your car over to T-3 for a once over inspection and speak with the master himself (with advance notice and arrangements).

[RobertsnewQ]

Has anyone tried to flush it themselves through the cooler lines? Takes a while but might be worth it.

[elwesso]

Has anyone tried to flush it themselves through the cooler lines? Takes a while but might be worth it.

The fluid is pushed, not pulled thru... All youd do is empty the fluid and starve the planetaries.....

[texasoil]

Never 'flush' the transmission with anything but good ATF unless you havea build-up of gum/sludge/varnish and shift quality is poor. GOT LITTLE TO LOOSE IN THAT CASE. I have had 3 done, carefully observing. Takes 14-16 qts to get fluid coming out to match new fluid. (I used a fluorescent dye and black-light to see for sure difference) Lubeguard RED is fantastic stuff,used by all the good transmission rebuilders.It is synthetic sperm oil-- the real stuff is no longer availables since we no longer hunt and kill them. The synthetic stuff is THE BEST friction modifier available, and would be in all Dexron fluids if it was not so costly. It works by smoothing out the final 'lock-up' of the clutches, significantly reducing shift shock to hard parts, wear, and fluid heating. Technically, it modifies the fluid friction characteristics so it has a lower coefficient of static friction than dynamic friction--in other words, carries more torque just before lock-up than right at lock-up. Type F fluid is just the opposite. This type of additive is widely used in applications were 'stick-slip' characteristics are important--like lathe ways,CNC machines automatic transmissions, fluid clutches--anything where velvety smooth motion from stop to moving and moving to stop is important.

[maxnix]

By the way, I perused the Wynn's Automatic Transmission Fluid Exchange brochure at a Firestone dealer, and they claim 95% replacement. It operates on an external pump with bladders like the Sun machine.

[DAEDALUS]

They can't have a system that replaces the exact same amount on every car. I would think the wording is probably along the lines of "up to 95%". If it says "95% minimum" that would be darn impressive.

[DrewQ45]

Well,

Perfect time for me to post here again. This type of transmission talk is now right up my alley since my Q is now refusing to shift into third gear.

The problem started a little over a week ago when I was spanking a Mustang on I-20 ... I noticed that it would not shift into high gear at WOT and the morning after it refused to shift from second until warm. Last weekend however, after a long drive to the airport, there is no getting it to shift to high gear anymore, warm or not.

Guess I can't complain with 192K on the original trans. Must admit that I haven't exactly been stellar with transmission maintenance either (and that's giving myself much credit). I've never changed the screen filter and have only flushed it twice since 1998. My last flush was about 3 year ago at T3 upon which Mobil 1 syn ATF was added along with a BRM cooler. No filter change or pan drop at that point either, in fact, I have never dropped the pan. That coupled with the bad 1-2 WOT shifts that switching to a 93 TCU years ago caused has probably taken it's toll. At this point, the transmission shifts from 1-2 nicely if not driven agressively, however, when it's time for 3rd it's as if it has shifted to neutral. I have to drop it into D3 to drive at slow hiway speeds and the high RPMs cause my engine temp to climb to 3/4 mark- subsequently resulting in my parking it since then. I am now terrorizing the highway in my 5.2 L V8 Dodge Dakota.

I suspect that if not now suffering mechanical damage, my friend-chicken golden brown (pink was a few years ago) transmission fluid has lost all it's viscosity and the screen filter is full clogged causing low pressure conditions. I also get that nice cooked odor coming off the dipstick that make my stomach growl if dinner time is near. I know you all are probably thinking I'm taking this too lightly or saying "serves you right", but I think I have gotten more than my money's worth out of this transmission, maybe more than many of those who spent big $$$ flushing every 6 months....so...don't cry for me Argentina... I'm not lamenting.

It's ironic that I let it go this long since I'm pretty good about engine maintentance. This is why I always disagree when I hear people say the Q has a weak transmission..mabye I was just lucky?

My first plan of action will be to change the screen filter and perform multiple drains. (no flushing as it would probably make things worse at this point) I got a new screen filter, O ring, pan gasket etc. shipped from Joe today and the car is already up on stands. Seems the only way to go about draining this bad boy is to loosen all the pan bolts and create a holy mess... If anyone has a better/cleaner drain technique I'd love to hear about it. Maybe loosen one side first? I also see three bolts with raised square heads south of the pan and think I might get it to drain from there first...these are higher than the pan, but, I'm thinking it might allow me more control over the flow.... I'm selling this house soon and don't really want to have large oil spots on the garage floor (yes, I spread cloths around but I imagine it's going to be that bad).

If the problem turns out to be mechanical and impervious to my efforts, I plan to get a Japanese take-out transmission. Any suggestions on the best websites or places to order from will be highly appreciated.

Maybe I should've posted this as new post?

...Drew...
Modified by DrewQ45 at 9:56 PM 7/28/2005