K&N Air Filter Users

[Rev_D21]

You are using a crappy filter.

http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

[PEZi]

this test was done before the AMSOIL Ea filters came out... i wonder how they would have done compared to the old AMSOIL ones

[Rev_D21]

We may never know.

I have a K&N in my Millenia but that's going in the trash, I am switching to Baldwin air filters. I have used Baldwin oil filters for years on the Milly and Nissan OEM on the HB. Might switch them both over to Baldwin air filters after reading that article.

[RT22]

That is one filter and on a diesel, is that a fair rep of all K&N filters?

[PEZi]

well the truth about k&n is they flow a lot more air than most... as a result you do get more dirt in the oil eventually... i personally don't care but everyone has their opinions and it scares some people for sure... i just change my oil more often then most people would... never had any issues

[RT22]

Common sense says more flow means more dirt gets past, but if you oil it and keep it clean it should be fine. I mean K&N has been around for yrs and many off road racers use them so how bad can they be? I have never heard of anyone I know having problems with them. I used them on my dirt bikes for yrs, I washed and reoiled after every ride and never had any problems. Like anything proper maintenance is key. Just felt one test on one filter on one diesel was not a fair test for all products. But to each his own.

[Rev_D21]

For outside air dirt to get in the oil it must first get past the piston rings and over time...I think you get the picture.

I guess the benefit gained from high flow doesn't outweigh the impact of dirt getting into the cylinders for me. To me it's like putting an oily rag over the intake, I think they did that on tractors back in the 1930s too. If I was only racing the truck I would see the benefit but I drive 80 miles a day to work and back...that's a lot of crap to be getting past a filter in that circumstance.

Here's the hype from K&Ns page. See they claim high flow(true) combined with 'excellent filtering'(not true). I guess if they said high flow only I would find them more believable but here they are claiming they also filter better.

http://www.knfilters.com/filtercharger.htm

'Anyone can flow more air. The trick is to flow more air safely. In our opinion we hit the sweet spot – an optimal blend of high air flow, filtration efficiency, durability and dust capacity. We take filtration seriously. K&N Air Filter media has been tested both in-house and by independent labs using the ISO5011 test developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers. In addition we test many of our filters both in and out of the OE airbox ensuring proper fit and function. Our goal is to design filters with the maximum possible airflow achievable while providing guaranteed engine protection.'

Not for nothing, I am just playing devil advocate here but they are claiming that you can have both high flow and high filtering. Maybe what they really mean is that out of all the high flow filters out there they are the best. But if they think they even come close to OEM filtration rate they are wayyy off the mark.

Of course it's your engine, destroy it how you see fit.
Modified by Reverend D at 6:46 PM 11/5/2009

[RT22]

Well I have used them and know friends who use then and have had zero troubles. Key to a K&N is to keep it oiled with the proper oil, the oil traps the dirt down to miniscule sizes. If not oiled properly then you have issues. I used them on dirt bikes and that is the worst environment for dirt and water, never had any issue as I kept the filter cleaned and OILED. if you get dirt into a stret engine with K&N you are not using it properly. Sorry man but no way you get dirt in a street engine if you oil the filter right. Nothing large enough to harm engine will get passed a properly oil K&N. NO WAY NO HOW. It actually filters better than paper stock filter when OILED properly, I am betting those who have issues are not cleaning and oiling it right. The OIL is the trapper. Go to google and google filter tests done by independent places, K&N traps and blocks better than stock paper to smaller particles. BUT read the fine print, if and only if oiled and cleaned exactly as told by K&N.

[RT22]

Oh and please do not propagate rumors as facts, this is how many urban myths on car things start. Do not look at one test look at many and weigh ALL facts before stating things as fact. This is ho idiots believe crazy things about cars. I have seen many idiots screw up a car by doing dumb stuff they were told is good and fine, when in fact is was rumor turned fact by folks not doing their home work. If you do not want to use K&N fine, but do not state as fact that they suck without more than one lousy test on a diesel . Just saying, get all the facts before stating things as fact.

[Rev_D21]

My link to the test carries a little more weight than your OPINION. Unless your opinion has a test to back it up, So let's see it. You use a K&N, that's personal testimony, not fact. I use a K&N in my Mazda, I don't like it...that's OPINION, not fact. K&N tested their filter using the ISO5011 testing system, so did my link. The difference is you just don't agree with the result of the independent link I provided so you are trashing it. Where's K&N's published results of their ISO5011 test so we can compare?

The fact remains, the compromise between flow and filtering is not open to debate. In order to flow more air one must filter less. Argue it one way or the other it still comes down to 1930s technology of an oily rag in the intake which suggests only the oil is doing the filtering. Any dirt in the engine is undesirable and as I said , in race car conditions this filter does the job but for everyday driving on dirt filled streets the K&N is risky.

I think you are the one buying into the urban myth that K&N filters better.

Here's more info (even if home made) that backs up my claim.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...3.htmh ... co....html

Rob Levinson from UUC Motorwerks says that "it is really doing every E34 owner a disservice for three reasons:• First, conclusive tests from independent labs show that K&N filters, no matter how well-oiled and cleaned, let through huge amounts of large particulate that damages engines. Oil analysis shows 5x as much silicate contamination. Additionally, the oil from these filters tends to muck up the MAF and cause an engine-damaging lean-run condition. "

"Yes, these filters make a "really cool" noise... but noise does not equal power. Stick with a stock paper element in the factory airbox, you're not getting any more power with a K&N garbage-filter, just damaging your motor."

I await your posted test results.

Modified by Reverend D at 9:28 AM 11/6/2009

Modified by Reverend D at 10:49 AM 11/7/2009
Modified by Reverend D at 10:49 AM 11/7/2009

[Rev_D21]

Lastly, if the boss man posts this... zer...64002

...then there isn't much more one can say. Because someone ran the filter and had no major problems is not a certified test with factual data....it's luck. Pull your oil pan, pull your crank and check your main and rod bearings under a microscope, I bet they are scored more than mine with my OEM filter. Take an oil sample your next oil change, send it in to a place like Blackstone for analysis, I will do the same. That's a true test.

If K&N won't even release their micron filtration rate...hype!
Modified by Reverend D at 3:27 PM 11/6/2009

[RT22]

Okay then like I said google the tests they are every where and I guess the millions of racers and folks using them are killing motors daily, that is how they sold so many and continue to sell them daily. No one said they do not pass more small particles, but show me one long term test showing engine damage, if you could they would sue K&N and be rich. the micron size dirt they pass is not enough to damage an engine if well maintained. Fact is all engines are damaged to a small point even with stock as all get some microscopic dirt passed any filter and no one runs in a clean room. But to say they are damaging engines and are crappy is still hype. Show me side by side long term tests of the damage compared to stock, show me and I will eat every word, I posted. I find it hard to think racers who spend thousands of dollars on race engines would risk them if it were so bad and damaging, and I am talking desert and off road racers who see more dust and dirt in a day than a street car in 5 yrs. If you dislike them then do not use them, but do not trash something just cause you do not like them, that is doing what you said i am doing. Using your own bias to trash a product that has stood the test of time. Like any after market item it has up and down sides, but to say they are crappy and will damage engines is way beyond just saying you do not like them. Again one long term side by side showing K*N damages engines more than stock. A test in a lab for a few hrs is not real world test. Like EPA ,mileage done on a dyno in a warehouse, sudo science never is accurate to real world mileage. I prefer real world not lab.

[Rev_D21]

Silly, I guess you have no facts to prove they aren't damaging engines while I have presented many links to back up my claim that K&N sucks. Testimony is not fact, filter tests are evidence but testimony based on tests is valid in my book. I searched the following search terms in google.

"K&N Sucks""K&N excellent""K&N Ruins""K&N Awesome""K&N Filter Test"

Ironically most of the positive searches sent me directly to K&N's website where bias is pretty thick I imagine. When I found praise for K&N I found the same testimony over and over on different forums, same as yours..."I haven't had any problems therefore it must work well." That's the same as saying "I don't visually see any cancer from smoking cigs all day so I must be fine" without seeing a doctor to be checked out. Where's the test data?

If K&N is using ISO5011 to test their filters and claiming they filter great without publishing results and an independent performs an ISO5011 test publishing results....who has more cred? They are the same test after all...

So YOU don't mind a little, or a lot over time, dirt floating around your block, most people do mind. Would you, for me, open your oil cap and pour 3000 miles worth of fine road dirt directly into your oil right now? Just the amount that would normally get by the K&N under normal conditions. Since you say it's no big deal it shouldn't be any big deal to just dump that stuff in right?

I challenge you to an oil sample comparison. K&N vs. Nissan OEM. We send the results to a third party so to eliminate any number smudging. And while you are at it...Find me a link to these tests you are talking about where K&N wins for filtration.

PS: Butt-Dynos aplenty in here... http://www.knfilters.com/feedback4.htm*Just missing any factual data to back up any of these claims.


Modified by Reverend D at 11:02 AM 11/7/2009

[PEZi]

I guess the millions of racers and folks using them are killing motors daily, that is how they sold so many and continue to sell them daily

this is because they rebuild engines like crazy... for example... when i do my engine build and run ITB's i won't even be running any filters whatsoever... as is the same for a lot of others with ITB's as well as side draft carbs... but... i for example will basically check the engine every year and rebuild as necessary

[seang]

I normally don't bump threads for fear of repercussion, but I was reading on filtration tests and came across this one on my own free will. I then remembered the RevD posted the same test in this thread. It's true that "paper" filters trap more fine dust than any other kind.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/...3.htmVery cool and interesting test that was very simply carried out.

[Desert Rat]

A dirty K&N filters better than a clean one, however, airflow is reduced. If you take advantage of the greater airflow with a K&N as I do in both of my trucks, just get used to changing the oil more often.

[moneymike]

i changed out my stock filter to a k&n like 4 months back and i never had any problems with it. but then again i change my oil very often as well but you can feel the difference with the stock and the k&n filter. even after reading that article im not going to swap out my k&n.