Intake air temps - data log picture

[ken in az]

So I have a new setup for my intake and did some logs today...what you can't read is that it says Intake Air Temperature = 73deg F

Ambient air temp was 68deg F

5 degrees over ambient aint bad



I would like to get a stock M45 around here and do some logs on the stock setup and compare the differences - if any.

It could very well be that the stock system is just as good as mine, but the only way to tell s to compare the two. Temperature and total flow.

I can log Grams per sec and temperature so I'd like to brin the cars down to Maricopa or to Firebird Raceway and do some logs. Anyone want to volunteer? GJEMD I'm sure if you were here you'd love to make me eat crow

[GJEMD]

Ken I'll await the data. I hope your efforts are fruitful. I'm not against you. In my work, Medicine, much is not what it appears. Its good you seek "control" data to prove a point. Its called case controlled. Now add double blinding, that is you nor and secondary know which is stock vs mod, then you can go to the bank with it. If you have good data its always best to pay attention.

Here is an old Saturday night trick. Next time you take to the track fill up the air intake canister or hose 1/3 with dry ice. it should effective for 15 min or so. Beware it will get you busted at any sanctioned event

Modified by GJEMD at 4:10 AM 10/31/2009
Modified by GJEMD at 4:20 AM 10/31/2009

[ken in az]

Thanks, yeah - control data is what I'm after. Really can't do a double blind on a car though....well I guess you could switch the stock intake onto my car without it knowing about it - lol

In reality aftermarket companies fluff their numbers to sell a product much like the medical field.

Manufactures should run their product through the gambit before making a claim. They should have data logs to support their claims that show coolant temps/intake air temps/ignition timing values/fuel pressure/etc/etc/etc...during said tests to validate their claims.

What I'm after is using my filter comparisons since the stock intake MAF sensor tube is still being used the calibration of the sensor will not be changed. I believe that is where the Injen went wrong in their design.

If my setup shows more flow - it will indeed be a true representation of the increase of flow. Couple that with the IAT sensor to measure the temprature of the incoming air to give it real world meaning.

This will still not give me true numbers - I suspect that a dyno comparison between two cars with the stock intake and my modified intake "on both cars" will ultimately be needed to show any differences. These would need to be done same day/same conditions. Verify all engine parameters being equal and filter status being "new." A night dyno session would be awesome for this test.

Oh - and I'm going to experiment with water injection out here in the summer. I may even try it with my race tune here in the winter. finely atomized droplets of water to reduce intake temps and to lower combustion temps to level the playing field from summer 110-115Deg Temps to the nice cool winter weather. The heat really sucks the life out of these cars. One night I'm going to let the car cool all night at the track and just watch the races - the whole time I'll have a 20lb back of ice sitting on top of the intake manifold in a sealed garbage bag. Then just before they close the track, roll my car out and start it at the last moment - I'd bet 2-3 tenths quicker just by doing that then any run I've done before.

Back to the dry ice - where are you putting it exactly??
Modified by ken in az at 1:14 PM 11/6/2009

[mcrews]

Ken,Nice job!!! I may have to 'stop by' on my way to Dallas from Sacramento in Feb.I drive the Q and It takes 2 1/2 to 3 days.

mark

[fiveliterbeater]

It could very well be that the stock system is just as good as mine, but the only way to tell s to compare the two. Temperature and total flow.

hey when are you headed to cali? that way we can data log the temp im getting with my custom "a la Ken" style CAI!

i know most board members will disagree with my setup, but it works! the car is so much more responsive and the car is a beast at night with temps in the mid 50's.

[ken in az]

Ken,Nice job!!! I may have to 'stop by' on my way to Dallas from Sacramento in Feb.I drive the Q and It takes 2 1/2 to 3 days.

mark

Yeah - that'd be cool Try and get here on a saturday....we have one of the longest running saturday night parking lot cars shows here in scottsdale called the pavillions - most people out here just call it the Pavs (p-ahh-vs).

Anyway - lots of cool cars to look at - we've had Jet cars and Bikes there - literally a mitsubishi eclipse - pop the rear hatch and there's a low-bypayy jet turbine engine in there from a T38 trainer jet - shoots 30ft flames!!!

[ken in az]

hey when are you headed to cali? that way we can data log the temp im getting with my custom "a la Ken" style CAI!

i know most board members will disagree with my setup, but it works! the car is so much more responsive and the car is a beast at night with temps in the mid 50's.

oh-snap look-at dat! did you just cut out the lower piece? One of these days we'll have an intake to do us justice. Even though it doesn't look too pretty I'm sure it's functional. For now we'll just keep the engine cover on - lol I'm too embarassed to post a pic of mine - ahh shoot - here they are...

[fiveliterbeater]

oh-snap look-at dat! did you just cut out the lower piece?

yup! i just took a pair of sheers and cut into the plastic bottom cover! fresh air anytime my baby wants it!

i just cant drive too fast in th rain now and i have to be very careful drving through flooded intersections.

[GJEMD]

I'm not sure how your mod is arranged, But on the stock set up you put the dry ice just past the air filter in the canister and tubing about 1/3 up, not to restrict air volume. The dry ice will give you lower temps and hold up longer during the run. If you put in the dry ice in a minute before your run it will frost the lower part of the tubing and filter box. Take the dry ice to the track in any cooler and it will hold up for hours. then crush it in a towel with a hammer as needed. Use gloves, you can get some serious frost bite blisters handling this stuff

[mcrews]

I was lucky w/ the Q setup. I was able to retain the stock airbox. There is an 'upsidedown mushroom" kinda lika wart, that comes uot of the bottom and into the lower front wheel well. Purely for sound deadening.I took it off and ran some ducting from the IMPUL lower front scope.

[ken in az]

Nice work crews!

[mcrews]

Nice work crews!

Thanks Ken!

What cool is that the front piece is A/c ducting! Got it all at Home depot!I had to make 1 cut to make it slide over the IMPUL intake. THen I painted it black. Probably the easiest "custom built" mod I've ever done.

[Q45tech]

11F change = 1% density change [assumming barometer doesn't change].

The effective length of the Helmholtz tuning of the intake runners obviously changes with temperature changes because the speed of sound changes with temperature........................why those dyno chart undulations above 4,000 rpm change with air temperature.

Development engineers measure air temperature just before injectors or inside plenum AND the temperature of gasoline inside rail.

Ford has a patent on using AC system bypass to chill AF + water [store in insulated tank] and to circulate after turbo/supercharger to allpw 10 seconds of WOT with chilled air...............without boost you could still get 8-9% improvement in summer bring air down to 50F from 150F.

Ac shuts off during acceleration and after water is chilled.

People don't realoze how hot air gets in slow traffic in city.

[ken in az]

11F change = 1% density change [assumming barometer doesn't change].

Development engineers measure air temperature just before injectors or inside plenum AND the temperature of gasoline inside rail.

People don't realoze how hot air gets in slow traffic in city.

Yup, I've logged the underhood temps in some situations at over 190F when sitting in traffic on a 100+ deg day out here in AZ. That was with my old intake setup and stationary. Once the car got moving the factory air scoop would feed it fresh cool air and temps would drop to 20-30deg over ambient.

New intake is 25-35deg over ambient stationary and 5-7deg over ambient when moving.

These are underhood temps - and yeah with my engineering background it urks me that I don't have a thermocouple in the intake to see the temperature differential between there and the MAF sensor. I have an inkling that this intake being all aluminum absorbs more heat from the engines than a modern moldedfiber reinforced plastic intake from a Titan or LS1 or nearly all engines being produced now. If you've seen my pics of the intake manifold you can see all the surface area available for that heat to get transferred to intake air stream. With a phenolic spacer between the intake and the cylinderhead to reduce heat transfer we could have a potential to reduce heat soak power loss. I've verified on the track that just be letting the car sit for a couple hours you can pick up a tenth or 2 lost from heat soak.

[Q45tech]

Whether a hot TB, plenum, or runners transfers much heat to air depends on the air speed and the boundry insulation of the walls.

Obviously moving ~~ 400 CFM at 6,000 rpm vs 15 CFM at idle is ~ 25x the soak time for conduction/radiation. As you saw during the first second or 2 of an acceleration in summer traffic much power is lost due to heat soak.

When those 1/10th of a second count some type of immediate spray cooling [nitrous, meth/ethanol + water]. can mean the win.

Not nitrous for power but a little nitrous for cooling until the natural effects of rpm and flow take over.

[fiveliterbeater]

i dont know if it was on the LS1 forums that i saw this but someone had managed to run a custom battery powered "freon setup" and they had customized the TB so that freon was running through the TB ports right where the coolant used to run.

so the TB was constantly being "chilled" and hence creating a better intake charge. if you can create such a setup, i will pay you for it

[ken in az]

i dont know if it was on the LS1 forums that i saw this but someone had managed to run a custom battery powered "freon setup" and they had customized the TB so that freon was running through the TB ports right where the coolant used to run.

so the TB was constantly being "chilled" and hence creating a better intake charge. if you can create such a setup, i will pay you for it

Done...how much we talking here? - j/k mods

[ken in az]

Whether a hot TB, plenum, or runners transfers much heat to air depends on the air speed and the boundry insulation of the walls.

Obviously moving ~~ 400 CFM at 6,000 rpm vs 15 CFM at idle is ~ 25x the soak time for conduction/radiation. As you saw during the first second or 2 of an acceleration in summer traffic much power is lost due to heat soak.

When those 1/10th of a second count some type of immediate spray cooling [nitrous, meth/ethanol + water]. can mean the win.

Not nitrous for power but a little nitrous for cooling until the natural effects of rpm and flow take over.

Yeah, that's why I want to test out the water injection. The water does more work in the combustion chamber than say nitrous or a chilled air cooler allowing you to run more timing to make up for the loss of oxygen it displaces.

My theory is that if you want to cool your intake with Nitrous, then add a little fuel and actually "RUN" nitrous. lol it costs too much to just spray a little bit.

Thats where water injection comes into play. it's cheap and easy. there are some progressive controlers out there that can tap into MAF signals to make the water really work rather than hit a one shot deal at an rpm point.

And yes, heat soak is killer....especially since the VK45 uses a dual thermostat setup and the front t-stat is 180ish deg and the rear is 200ish deg opening temps. I've seen my coolant temps up over 220deg and that was just driving around with spirited driving on a 110deg AZ day. I switched mine out in favor of 160 and 170 deg units and cruising on the freeway is right at 176 - 180....but the fans don't kick on till 208deg and turn off at 203deg. Can we get a fan controller please???? lol

[ken in az]

Done...how much we talking here? - j/k mods

Actually, just thinking about the added costs - pros/cons in my head a little.

you'd need to add a battery and run it's own independant wiring = 40-50lbs. You'd need to add an electric AC compressor plus a separate condensor,eveporator, expansion valve, dryer, perssure and temperature switches to coontrol it, external fan to cool the condensor and separate temp switch for that, control system for it all = 50-75lbs

All in all with the added costs you still wouldn't be able to cool the air to below freezing so max gain you'd be looking at a 30-50 degree drop in temperature. Figure 3-5% powergain from air density increase so you're looking at 10-15hp increase. You are just barely making out even with the added weight of the system and I was being conservative. You may need a dual battery setup because electric AC compressors draw alot of current and unless you had a high performance battery that only had enough juice for one 1/4 run and had to be completely recharged wich would negate the use of the system since Nitrous would be a heck of alot simpler and cost effective.

[New2Import]

And yes, heat soak is killer....especially since the VK45 uses a dual thermostat setup and the front t-stat is 180ish deg and the rear is 200ish deg opening temps. I've seen my coolant temps up over 220deg and that was just driving around with spirited driving on a 110deg AZ day. I switched mine out in favor of 160 and 170 deg units and cruising on the freeway is right at 176 - 180....but the fans don't kick on till 208deg and turn off at 203deg. Can we get a fan controller please???? lol

I was wanting to do the same thing. I run cooler stats in all my rides. It was easy on my Dodge for it had a machanical fan so I just added a Flex A lite controller to the electric fan. The question I wanted to ask why didnt the program you added have a setting to lower the fan settings. Just about every hand held that I know of has that feature.

[ken in az]

I was wanting to do the same thing. I run cooler stats in all my rides. It was easy on my Dodge for it had a machanical fan so I just added a Flex A lite controller to the electric fan. The question I wanted to ask why didnt the program you added have a setting to lower the fan settings. Just about every hand held that I know of has that feature.

Because Nissan likes to be difficult. UpRev can only control the engine tuning parameters it can't control everything. Handheld programmers on Domestic vehicles can do this, but not anymore. We are getting into the age of the CAN BUS LAN vehicle communication systems. It is getting much more difficult to control even the most simplests of tasks. Just ask any IS350 owner....they don't have any ecu tuners available for that car!