Will the grounding kits stuff stop please

[gotak]

i am really sick of seeing people selling grounding kits with wild claims of offering more power by adding a couple bits of wires to your car. Why is it that people continue to believe in pseudo science and continue to have this believe that we, the engineers, know less about the technology then them?

I have tried to explain about local ground, differential signals and impedance to people but it's like their skulls are as thick as the wires they are adding to their cars. It's bleeping frustrating.

[marlin29311]

I don't believe that anyone has said that the grounding kits will offer more power; the only claims i have seen have been in regards to better electrical system performance...

[SteveTheTech]

Don't worry your not alone, in your thinking.

I have tested various Infiniti/Nissan models resistance and available voltage over time and under varying loads and the available voltage is nominal at best. People seem to really love them and "claim" performance increases,but they are mere speculation.

Now there are indeed some instances that an additional or repositioned ground will improve. I only know of a few on these vehicles and they are not a standard only a repair if a certain condition is experienced.

My view on this is if people are interested in spending the money to dress up their engine bay more power to them. If they feel that their electrical system is insufficient for their specific needs than by all means go ahead and add more wires. In theory it shouldn't hurt, although removing factory harness grounds will effect engine performance.

[G_whizz]

[Sentientbydesign]

I'm only participating in this thread if everybody involved agrees to be nice. No name calling, and no unsubstantiated counter claims.

This is what I have personally witnessed regarding grounding kits...

Blake (Adidas2go) got a 2 mpg over EPA HWY for his Altima Coupe. Now, there are some VERY important aspects to consider for both sides of this argument.

1) I'll need to verify how he drove from OC to SD. One route is uphill for a short distance, then has a slight downhill grade for ~80 miles which might contribute to the fuel economy. However, the more direct route was varied in elevation between sea level and 300 ft with no specific grade in either direction.

2) He had other mods to his car. Intake and exhaust IIRC. This MAY have made some difference too.

Anything over EPA estimate for a "spirited driver" is pretty good to me. I've had quite a few accounts of 40+ miles per tank increase after adding my kits to the Altimas with CVT. No real benefit to the 6mt (still trying to figure out that one).

Out of the more than 40 VQ/FM kits I've sold, I've only had one person "complain". He bought the kit to fix a faulty transmission (very jerky shifting). I specifically told him that my grounding kit wouldn't fix his problem, but he was insistent on trying (probably because it was cheaper than what the transmission shop quoted him). He emailed me stating that the kit was installed and he didn't notice any difference...Yeah, that's what I told him before he purchased it.

Of the other customers, all have reported great results or haven't reported at all. I'd estimate 1/2-2/3 reported back. Some of them on NICO, other via email.

Improved throttle response, improved shifting on 5at, better sounding audio...etc. I personally noticed that VDC was less intrusive with a kit on my car than without. I'd actually like to have (someone I trust) install and remove the kit without me knowing if it was on or not, to see what I really notice (effectively removing the placebo effect).

I've not personally had the pleasure of doing before and after testing on an automatic, though everybody I've installed the kit for have told me they feel a definitive difference. My favorite was (?) Andrew909(?) He said something like "Damn, this mod makes more of a difference than my intake. Wish I would have known about this sooner" <---Not an exact quote.

I personally like to think of the kits like S-Video compared to Composite Video. Both are compatible, but S-Video utilizes two separate channels one for luminance and the other for color. Separating the signals improves video quality quite a bit versus Composite that sends both signals on one wire.

Now, Steve has informed me that the CAN system on most Nissans carries vital sensor information on an isolated network (CAN is a weird system from a networking standpoint BTW). So I realize that the actual sensor signals aren't "composed", but the current from "all" of the electrical devices are. That's very muddy. The kits essentially separate the pathways. With the exception of adding noise (in a bad design), they theoretically can't hurt the system.

My understanding/belief/theory...w/e regarding the effects of the kits is that they lessen voltage/current fluctuations so that the individual systems can move power without "feeling" the effects of parallel circuits.

[Slappy]

[SteveTheTech]

Congrats on posting an ad.

[Slappy]

They were being tested in a magazine you dork.

[Sentientbydesign]

Now Steve will come back and tell you that the Magazine is paid by the companies who sell the grounding kits via advertising and that's why the earth is FLAT

[SteveTheTech]

Obsviously it is, well it looks flat on my nav screen and that lies <interwebs.

It couldn't hurt and if people like them and the owner of the car is happy than the product has done its job. I spend my money on air fresheners and expensive little light bulbs, but that's just me. Vanillaroma FTW lol.

With one or two well placed and secure grounds it may have an impact miniscule as it may be every little bit helps. Everyone got buy an SBDkit.

(please forgive the lack of spell check, everytime I try on the work computer it crashes so I am winging it.) Stay warm y'all.

[Rex]

... if people like them and the owner of the car is happy than the product has done its job.

At the end of the day, that's what an automotive product is supposed to do.

[maxnix]

At the end of the day, that's what an automotive product is supposed to do.

Wow, so those little pills I've been putting into my gas tank to convert water into gasoline really do work!

[c72c]

Don't worry your not alone, in your thinking.

I have tested various Infiniti/Nissan models resistance and available voltage over time and under varying loads and the available voltage is nominal at best. People seem to really love them and "claim" performance increases,but they are mere speculation.

Now there are indeed some instances that an additional or repositioned ground will improve. I only know of a few on these vehicles and they are not a standard only a repair if a certain condition is experienced.

My view on this is if people are interested in spending the money to dress up their engine bay more power to them. If they feel that their electrical system is insufficient for their specific needs than by all means go ahead and add more wires. In theory it shouldn't hurt, although removing factory harness grounds will effect engine performance.

so just disconect all the little grnd wires pokin out the harness or are there certain ones? i figured they all had an important purpose.

[kmckis1029]

I don't believe that anyone has said that the grounding kits will offer more power; the only claims i have seen have been in regards to better electrical system performance...

+1

I added a grounding kit for one reason only, to improve eletrical system performance aka response time. Adding grounding wires dont give some significant HP gain, if it did people would have their engine bay loaded with wires lol.

Since this is the engineer's part of the forum lets talk about human-machine interactions/interfacing. In this case the interface is the cars cabin and all the respective alerts/infomation the car's cabin gives the driver.

Examples of alerts/infomation are:

seeing the "SLIP" light come on and go off, and control of the given back to the driver

expected volume level of the radio at a certian number 0-32

Feeling the gear shift after commanded in the 5AT manual mode

pressing the throttle and feeling the car respond

the brightness of cabins lights

These are some things that the driver gets used to experiencing. The driver learns the response times of all these events/signals and information after driving the same car for so long. Its not a stretch to assume the driver will notice when these events happen differently.

SO all these people claiming HP gains are just experiencing improved response times of the car's interface (drivers cabin) after adding grounding wires.

Here is another example. Lets take two vending machines with the same hardware, but one is programed to dispense a drink 1 second after a button is depressed. Then the other is programed to dispense after 5 seconds. Even though they have the exact hardware, since the response time of the first machine is faster the user will assume its a "better" machine. When all that changed was the interface's response to the user.

So lets not go flame users as having "placedo effects" until you understand what they are experiencing...

[SteveTheTech]

You still can't speed up electricity. Signal response time of warning signal is all controlled over the CAN network with already communicates at speeds right around 300kbs (I think). Increasing one leg of an electrical circuits diameter and current carrying capability would have no theoretical impact. Using the "seat of your pants" dyno is fine but I still have yet to see any real proof.

[kmckis1029]

Yes you are right, but a cleaner signal allows for it to be "reconized" quicker over the can bus. Which goes back to my point, to the driver stuff happends faster even though there was no hardware change.