Q "Project Chapman" Begins

[Desmoquattro]

"To add speed, add lightness." - Colin Chapman

So begins my personal hotrod idea that has been brewing in my mind for a while. Take a decent handling, big engine car and strip it to the bare bones to remove the most weight possible and get the best possible performance and economy, without spending a dime and without having any external mods to give away the work done.

My background in motorcycles has given me an immense appreciation of how much a weight loss program can do. 40 lbs off a stock motorcycle is a night and day difference in performance across the board. I've played with my machines before, cutting and stripping excess weight wherever possible with a minimum of expense. Perhaps my own diminutive weight gives me an even greater understanding of the value of weight savings - I weigh 130 lbs on a bad day, and the difference between a 130 lb rider and a 200 lb rider is incredible.

Originally I had thought about using a 5.0L fox-body Mustang, but could never find one that was cheap enough for the project. Typically they get at least 5000$ for a ratty, automatic LX up here, 10 000$ easy if you want a GT with a Cobra body.

Enter the most unlikely of candidates, the Q45.

I drive alone, I'm single and my girlfriend lives 450 miles away. All of my friends have their own vehicles so I never end up giving more than one person a ride. So why do I need space for four other people?

Stage one has been to strip the easy stuff - the trunk is gutted down to the bare shell, the extra plastic and insulation has been removed from the engine bay. I'm replacing the spare with a patch kit and some tire slime to lose a few more pounds. So far this isn't worth much, maybe 40 lbs of junk has been removed, hardly worth mentioning on a two ton car.

Stage two will start in the next month. I need the car intact for a few weeks, then I will go crazy. First will be the removal of the rear seat (new couch, woohoo), the rear door trim, the carpeting and headliner, the rear power window motors, the rear parts of the stereo system, and any excess bits I can get my hands on.

Stage three will be doing the same to the front, leaving only the seats and the front windows functional (I need ventilation, after all). The stereo headunit and front speakers will go, the front door trims out, any useless electronics will get ditched, and anything I need to leave will get replaced with aircraft toggle switches.

Stage four will be removing the front seats and installing fixed Recaro units.

Sacrilege? Of course. Fun? You bet. Riding around in a car surrounded by mechanicals and bare metal with no sound insulation is fun, if you are a masochistic petrol head like I am.

The ultimate goal is to have a vehicle that has only the necessities in place. On a typical rice-mobile it would almost make sense, on a luxo barge like the Q it's a wonderfully nutty proposition, and a fun way to increase performance.

Of course I'm keeping all the bits so that if I ever plan on selling the car intact, I can reassemble back to the original state.

[qsiguy]

That's one thing I love about my Q. It's been paid for for years, great platform for mods, nothing really to loose in modifying as the resale is terrible anyway. Sounds like a fun project. Cut out that suitcase muffler and install straight pipes in place, that will loose at least 50 lbs. or more.

[maxnix]

"To add speed, add lightness." - Colin Chapman

The corollary is to start with a light car. Far better to add a VH45DE to a 240SX or Z32 than try to make a G50 lighter, something that its high fundamental resonant frquency does not accomodate.
Modified by maxnix at 8:55 PM 5/4/2008

[Rex]

Couple older threads about this, one by NismoFreak, the other by someone that actually tacked his car.

I'll state the obvious ...

Figure the % of reduction you did on the bike (40 lbs off a stock ...), then see how many lbs' you'll have to trim off a Q to get anywhere near that number.

Yes it's a "free" mod, but what are the real gains??

Don't mean to be a naysayer, just looking to the "value" of these free mods.

[maxnix]

Also, on a 450 mile trip, the weight reduction will raise noise levels at cruise more than it will rains performance at cruise.

Don't you think your girlfriend wouild appreciate going somewhere a quiet and comfortable luxury car than a gutted 4 door boy racer once your arrive?

[qship96]

About as rediculous as attempting to modify a pair of Cole-Haan loafers to compete with track shoes.

[maxnix]

There you go. Don't try to convert a Tennessee walker into a thoroughbred.

[Desmoquattro]

See the controversy? That's half the fun of the project. It makes no sense... So why do it? BECAUSE it makes no sense. When you get to a "grams and ounces" point of view you realize how obsessively-weird-kind-of-fun vehicle diet programs can be.

Highway noise? Puhleeze, try riding a loud piped, mechanical cacaphony of an Italian motorcycle for 700 miles with nothing but ibuprofen, cigarettes and an iPod to keep you from losing your sanity. I thrive on vehicular masochism. And my girlfriend is just as nuts as I am.

[maxnix]

I thrive on vehicular masochism.

You have the wrong car then unless you like to replace all your timing chain guides and under plenum hoses annually.

[elwesso]

Jason I think we're both crazy enough to be real good friends!!

I love it, who cares what you do to the car its really not worth anything!!! Of course, you'd hate to ruin a mint example but hey, if thats what makes you happy then go for it...

Honestly, what I would do is keep most everything in the car (all the creature comforts, etc) and just replace the seats. The seats weigh a good 80lbs EACH!!! Everything else really isnt worth that much IMO. Whatever floats your boat but thats my opinion.

Im all about making these old fattys move, but I dont like taking the Q out of Q45.. Or, at least all of it...

[maxnix]

just replace the seats. The seats weigh a good 80lbs EACH!!!

Yeah but when I drive 1,200miles in a day and arrive not a bit tired or stiff, they are well worth it.

[Q45tech]

We strip Q almost every day a part here and there to revive some poor customers car. You will be surprised at how little things weigh besides, engine, engine bay accessories, transmission, driveshaft, diff, rear subframe.

Glass is much heavier than you would think. There are 253 pounds of liquids + 160 pounds of gasoline..............more than 10% of weight is a liquid.

If you can remove 400 pounds and have everything functional somewhat I'll eat a hat even if I must buy a soybean one.

[StarPD]

Desmoquattro, you are absolutely correct. I knocked almost 40 lbs off of my '90 ZX11C1 and it greatly improved performance, handling, and ride in all respects. I also tweaked it, bringing RWHP from stock 120 to 137.

That being said, I think the most you can get from a Q45 without ruining it as a luxury/performance car is around 200 lbs. That will help considerably though. I think once you go beyond that, you may change it so much it won't be as enjoyable. Certainly, a much lighter car with a big engine would serve you better. I used to know a guy who stuffed a Corvette motor in a Chevy Vega. Fast, but no fun to drive or ride in.

Old racer saying" Take care of the ounces and the pounds will take care of themselves".

Get ultra-lightweight forged wheels and light probably Michelin tires, remove the spare, change to a LW gel type battery and relocate it to the trunk, replace the exhaust with a simpler lightweight one, keep gas tank only half filled, and remove a few unncessary items like WS washer jar, keep storage compartments and trunk empty, etc, and you'll be surprised at the improvement all around. Of course you could always remove the entire rear seat and rear interior door trim, replace driver and passenger seats with lighweight racing types, and replace side glass with thin plastic, but that kind of ruins it as a luxury car. The mods I've suggested are probably about the most you can do to improve the car without harming it's intent.

Be sure to weigh it bone stock, then after you've modded it, and let us know how you make out.

[oldmako]

It's your car and your energy. Knock yourself out and have fun.

As previously mentioned, I'd be curious to know how much weight you saved and what changes you noticed in performance.

I stripped much of the extra (non essential) items from my boat and it made an immediate and dramatic difference n the boat's performance. Apples and oranges I know, but the extra weight costs.

[Q45tech]

A good reference is to measure a quarter mile full and empty [light on] of gasoline as the 140 pound difference should show 0.1- 0.15 seconds improvement.Or add a 140 pound passenger for the converse.

Over a narrow range say +- 300 pounds the gain or loss should track pretty well.

Since the Nico ecu doesn't change the weight probably the most effective on a per pound basis in history.

Spendin $250 to gain 25 HP/lb'ft is quite a bargain compared to time to remove 250 pounds.

[StarPD]

A good reference is to measure a quarter mile full and empty [light on] of gasoline as the 140 pound difference should show 0.1- 0.15 seconds improvement.Or add a 140 pound passenger for the converse.

Over a narrow range say +- 300 pounds the gain or loss should track pretty well.

Since the Nico ecu doesn't change the weight probably the most effective on a per pound basis in history.

Spendin $250 to gain 25 HP/lb'ft is quite a bargain compared to time to remove 250 pounds.

Ah, but the improvement in handling and ride, not to mention fuel economy favors weight reduction. Besides, it's not necessarily an either-or proposition. One can do both and get the combined benefits. Then, the cost is determined by the extent the owner decides to choose.

[Q45tech]

Lightening the body won't improve the ride. The so called ride is a function of the unsprung weight and frame stiffness. Other than lighter forged wheels pretty difficult to lighten suspension or brakes.

Notice that Lexus is actually increasing the body/frame weight and has done so since the beginning progressively in their search for a better ride.

They have gone from steel to all alloy suspensions [except for springs] to compensate for big heavier brakes and wheels.

Anyway all about finding a precise ratio between sprung and unsprung weight.

Don't cofuse body weight and roll angle with handling, but you are correct removing sprung weight from tires will improve [decrease] slip angles.About 45-55% of the weight reduction is useful as the balance actually decreases tire/road friction.

The problem is how to reduce an equal amount of front weight after a battery relocation or an ac compressor , or bumper removal.

The winshield wiper tank, condenser and electric fan, compressor might be 50 pounds full of liquids.

Who makes the lightest light bulbs and air filter?

[maxnix]

Ah, but the improvement in handling and ride, not to mention fuel economy favors weight reduction. Besides, it's not necessarily an either-or proposition. One can do both and get the combined benefits. Then, the cost is determined by the extent the owner decides to choose.

Certainly handling will be improved, but ride? Fatigue from noise alone wouild be considerable except comapred to a motorcycle. Forget tunes or virtual silence at any speed. Forget compfort and forget AC if you are serious (might work in the great white north).

There are no combined benefits, only gains and losses. Like Q45tech says, if you even carry a change of underwear, you have defeated your purpose. If lightness is your goal, start smaller. No one nneds room for three passengers if there is only one travelling. No one would choose the Queen Mary as a basis for an offshore racer.

[Haitian_King]

"To add speed, add lightness." - Colin Chapman

So begins my personal hotrod idea that has been brewing in my mind for a while. Take a decent handling, big engine car and strip it to the bare bones to remove the most weight possible and get the best possible performance and economy, without spending a dime and without having any external mods to give away the work done.

My background in motorcycles has given me an immense appreciation of how much a weight loss program can do. 40 lbs off a stock motorcycle is a night and day difference in performance across the board. I've played with my machines before, cutting and stripping excess weight wherever possible with a minimum of expense. Perhaps my own diminutive weight gives me an even greater understanding of the value of weight savings - I weigh 130 lbs on a bad day, and the difference between a 130 lb rider and a 200 lb rider is incredible.

Originally I had thought about using a 5.0L fox-body Mustang, but could never find one that was cheap enough for the project. Typically they get at least 5000$ for a ratty, automatic LX up here, 10 000$ easy if you want a GT with a Cobra body.

Enter the most unlikely of candidates, the Q45.

I drive alone, I'm single and my girlfriend lives 450 miles away. All of my friends have their own vehicles so I never end up giving more than one person a ride. So why do I need space for four other people?

Stage one has been to strip the easy stuff - the trunk is gutted down to the bare shell, the extra plastic and insulation has been removed from the engine bay. I'm replacing the spare with a patch kit and some tire slime to lose a few more pounds. So far this isn't worth much, maybe 40 lbs of junk has been removed, hardly worth mentioning on a two ton car.

Stage two will start in the next month. I need the car intact for a few weeks, then I will go crazy. First will be the removal of the rear seat (new couch, woohoo), the rear door trim, the carpeting and headliner, the rear power window motors, the rear parts of the stereo system, and any excess bits I can get my hands on.

Stage three will be doing the same to the front, leaving only the seats and the front windows functional (I need ventilation, after all). The stereo headunit and front speakers will go, the front door trims out, any useless electronics will get ditched, and anything I need to leave will get replaced with aircraft toggle switches.

Stage four will be removing the front seats and installing fixed Recaro units.

Sacrilege? Of course. Fun? You bet. Riding around in a car surrounded by mechanicals and bare metal with no sound insulation is fun, if you are a masochistic petrol head like I am.

The ultimate goal is to have a vehicle that has only the necessities in place. On a typical rice-mobile it would almost make sense, on a luxo barge like the Q it's a wonderfully nutty proposition, and a fun way to increase performance.

Of course I'm keeping all the bits so that if I ever plan on selling the car intact, I can reassemble back to the original state.

Wow. Interesting. If I make it out to Montreal this summer, I'd love to see it.

A friend of mine told me about a 90-93 Q for sale up around his way a while ago. It used as an undercover Narcotics car. The police had purchased a Q, kept it stock on the exterior (with the exception of limo tint), and completely gutted the interior. He says that the rear seat was removed and replaced with a plastic bench type seat (similar to a bus or subway train seat), the carpet and headliner removed, dash, door panels, everything. I heard that if the detectives needed to clean the interior, a garden hose would suffice. Just hose it out and let it dry.

My friend told me that the cops replaced the OEM suspension setup with a modified interceptor setup.

I told my friend to buy it (it was $6500) but he didn't. I haven't heard about it since. If it was still for sale, I'd try to talk it down and buy it myself for possible use as a track car. (I refuse to do it to my Q. However, if I happen to get my hands on a second "throwaway" then I'd consider it.)

[Jeff Williams]

#1 gut the doors, lock mechanisms, and glass, then tack weld them to the body.

#2 cut the roof off and make it a convertible

#3 replace the brake calipers with aluminum Z32 items.

#4 remove the exhaust system and bolt a coule cherry bombs to the cats.

#5 remove the spare tire well

#6 gut the hood and trunk bracing

#7 gut the interior and put in Sparko racing seats

#8 buy some light Ford Cobra racing wheels and lightweight tires

#9 get a carbon fiber driveshaft

#10 have some carbon fiber half shafts made

#11 cut out the floor pans and pop rivet in aluminum panels

#12 take out the gas tank and install an 8 gallon plastic fuel cell

#13 remove all unnecessary electronics and associated wiring

#14 install a roll cage

#15 replace the front and rear glasss with Lexan.

[qship96]

Or, just spend an hour at the shrink and get to the bottom of this once and for all! quicker,cheaper,and more effective?

[maxnix]

My friend told me that the cops replaced the OEM suspension setup with a modified interceptor setup.

Are you certain this wasn't a scam for them to feed their own drug habit?

No way a Ford PI suspension would fit on a G50.

[Haitian_King]

Are you certain this wasn't a scam for them to feed their own drug habit?

No way a Ford PI suspension would fit on a G50.

Hey guy. I don't know. I'm just telling what I was told ok? I don't know what an interceptor setup looks like. I wouldn't be able to pick my own suspension parts out of a lineup.

The gist of it is, the OEM setup was either reinforced through whatever police trickery and witchcraft they could conjure, or it was replaced with something "similar" to that of the CV. When I say "similar" I don't mean a direct bolt-on. I'm assuming it's probably the same heavy duty material, only to fit the G50 chassis.

[elwesso]

because i certainly trust that the gov't knows exactly what their doing when it comes to modifying cars..

Last time i checked, the governments corps of CIVIL ENGINEERS is way better than their corps of MECHANICAL ENGINEERS!!

[Q45tech]

Why would anyone use a Furd Interceptor suspension since it is years and years behind even a 1990 Q................no steering rack = idler pitman arm.

http://www.thedirtforum.com/CrownVicFor ... s/...7.jpg

http://www.p71interceptor.com/....html

[maxnix]

Why would anyone use a Furd Interceptor suspension since it is years and years behind even a 1990 Q................no steering rack = idler pitman arm.

Just further evidence of government incompetence, eh?

[jimbyjimb]

Wierdos. Goodluck on the bastardizing! It's one of my hobbies also...

[jimbyjimb]

Crown Vic is a great car. Best I got was 26mpg stock. Not bad for a V8. Tough old gal. Oversized everything, ready to get in a chase while towing a boat. Truck beds should come standard.

[qship96]

Crown Cic and mercury gran marquis are NOT great cars! OLD tech,cheap nasty basic transportation. The only reason they survive is senior citizens see the size and think they are getting a large car for a small price{the old American thinking...bigger is better. they are shockingly noisy and hard riding for their size, pointing out the $ saved on poor sound insulation and outdated economy suspension.Big car shiny looks fool alot of "non car" type people

[maxnix]

Yeah, but all their manufacturing costs were amortized decades ago. They are that old in design.