BG 44k or Redline S1 fuel injector treatment????

[qship96]

After hearing BG has changed the formula of 44k, {some say it is nowhere near as good as the original} and that they took the best cleaning ingredient out of it {polyEther amine}, I looked at the MSDS of Redlines FI cleaner which says it contains 30-50% polyEther-amine. I have used both ,but now wonder if Redline is the superior product, especially at about 1/3 the price? QTECH, any words of wisdom on this?

http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/43.pdf

Here is the link to 2005 msds for bg44k, notice percentages of ingredients lacking.....

http://www.bgfleming.com/products/msds/208.pdf

Modified by qship96 at 6:04 PM 4/23/2008
Modified by qship96 at 8:04 PM 4/23/2008

[Victor]

Infiniti recommends not using cleaners you add to the gasoline, says it could damage the injectors.

[NightRiderQ45]

Infiniti recommends not using cleaners you add to the gasoline, says it could damage the injectors.

Man, I can tell you are a newbie...

[Victor]

Here are some articles about potential damage from fuel injector cleaners. Sometimes the cleaners can make problems worse, sometimes they help, but most times they are not needed.

http://www.autoeducation.com/blog/item/753/

http://answers.yahoo.com/quest...wYu4M

http://www.jaguarfuelinjectors...l.htm

http://www.repairtrust.com/fuel_inj.html

[captainluigi]

Some say there are no coincidences. I would disagree. Just ordered case of 12 Redline Si-1seconds prior to signing on to NICO. Will post an evaluation when possible. Of course this will only be a seat of the pants eval. as I have no scientific test equip. or any method of performing a quantitative analysis on the aforementioned product.

How's that for some bullshyt?

[qship96]

Captain, I have used the Redlne si-1 on and off for 9 years on the Q, and more recently 44k a few times- I always thought the 44k was regarded as the better product, but not sure the ingredients prove this true? How muvh was 12 bottles? I usually pay around 6-7 per bottle locally

[Q45tech]

Unfortunately the EPA accepts > 50 chemicals as detergents for gasoline and there are no public tests about how much of what cleans how much.

Some detergents actually create new deposits while cleaning other deposits. Sometimes it is better to use [alternate between] two different brands if they are infact different!

"Engine dynamometer tests were conducted to evaluate the effect of detergent additives and gasoline components on combustion chamber deposits (CCD). Additives with polyether amine (PEA) and with polyolefin amine (POA) chemicals were used. Our results show that some kinds of additives and aromatics in gasoline increase CCD formation. Deterent polyolefin detergents show different tendency of CCD formation.

The amount of CCD showed good relationship with the unwashed gum level of the gasoline. In general, smaller dosages produce less CCD. This means that detergents which have good IVD and PFID effectiveness at smaller dosage are better with regard to CCD."

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fu...s.htm

"Gasoline detergents are commonly employed in gasolines for the purposes of maintaining fuel system cleanliness, absorbing traces of moisture, and resisting rust and corrosion. It is desirable that such detergents be ashless--that is, contain no metal salts and burn cleanly in the combustion chamber. It is further desirable that they contain no elements such as phosphorus which could be detrimental to the performance of a catalytic converter or other emission control device. Gasoline detergents of choice in our invention are the fatty amines and the ethoxylated and propoxylated derivatives thereof, as well as fatty diamines such as tallow propylenediamine. The reaction of a fatty acid having from about ten to about twenty carbon atoms and mixtures thereof with ethylene diamine or derivatives thereof such as N-hydroxyethyl ethylenediamine gives rise to cyclic amines called imidazolines. These fatty imidazolines are very useful as gasoline detergents. Polymeric amines and derivatives thereof such as the polybuteneamines and polybuteneamine polyethers have also proved efficacious as gasoline detergents and are claimed to offer some advantages over conventional amines, especially in the area of intake valve cleanliness. The amines, diamines, fatty imidazolines, and polymeric amines are all useful as the gasoline detergent components of our invention. In combination with these amines, carboxylic acids may be used, as is well known in the art, said carboxylic acids having from three to forty carbon atoms. Among preferred carboxylic acids to be used in combination with the amine detergents are the 2,2-dimethylalkanoic acids having from about five to about thirteen carbon atoms, oleic acid, and the dimerized acid of linoleic acid. "

[captainluigi]

12 15oz. bottles delivered for $68.04 = $5.67 ea. vs $12 to $15 for BG 44K. Redline via Amazon & BG via ebay or $20 via IOS for BG44K.

Neither product is readily available in my hood.

[maxnix]

Infiniti recommends not using cleaners you add to the gasoline, says it could damage the injectors.

That's funny because they did sell one.

[maxnix]

12 15oz. bottles delivered for $68.04 = $5.67 ea. vs $12 to $15 for BG 44K. Redline via Amazon & BG via ebay or $20 via IOS for BG44K.

Joe has sold BG44K for $8 on special. I bet there is at least one FedEx truck in FL.

[Haitian_King]

Here are some articles about potential damage from fuel injector cleaners. Sometimes the cleaners can make problems worse, sometimes they help, but most times they are not needed.

http://www.autoeducation.com/blog/item/753/

http://answers.yahoo.com/quest...wYu4M

http://www.jaguarfuelinjectors...l.htm

http://www.repairtrust.com/fuel_inj.html

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say cheap ****ty injector cleaners are bad for the injectors. Seeing as BG 44K isn't something you can walk into Joe Schmoe's Part Store and pick up, I'm going to believe that it must be something great.

But that's just me.

[lino]

After hearing BG has changed the formula of 44k......

Do you know when they changed the formula? How long has it been?

[qship96]

Look at the link in my first post here, it shows 2005 msds replaced the one from 2004

Sure looks like the redline product is better than the new 44k to me? Seems like 44k is now mostly mineral spirits and kerosene?

[NightRiderQ45]

Look at the link in my first post here, it shows 2005 msds replaced the one from 2004

Sure looks like the redline product is better than the new 44k to me? Seems like 44k is now mostly mineral spirits and kerosene?

You are right my friend. They did change the formula...Well I have two more cans and then I will be switching to Redline. Good catch. Oh, where can you purchase redline?

[qship96]

The BG formula has definitly changed..... I am still not sure whether it is worse, equal, or better than the current redline product..... why I asked for qtechs opinion,but his post, while full of information really didnt answer the question{ but strangly, he did not defend the BG as being better, so kinda makes you wonder, as sometimes what is NOT said is more revealing than a paragraph of technobabble {just ask brian}

The Redline s1-1 is cheapest thru amazon, as the captain stated in his earlier post regarding his purchase of 12 bottles

Again, I am not saying one is better or worse than the other yet- however I have had good results with both, and the redline product is about 1/3 the price of the BG. Lots of data available on http://www.redlineoil.com if you want to read more about it ,unfortunatly BG`s site has very little.

[captainluigi]

I spoke w/ a gentleman by the name of Scott @ BG of Kansas last week 04/16/08 concerning my concern about the MSDS ID:208 for 44K.

He was just as vague as Senator McClain is about his economic plan.

My concern centered around the MSDS ID 208 44K. It is as follows;

CAS#

Mixture Petroleum distillates 40-70% 8052-41-3 Mineral spirits 10-30%

He became a wee bit testy when asked if it contained kerosene, diesel fuel, furniture polish or paint thinner. Yes I know I can piss some people off but when direct questions are answered with such vagueness I tend to be very direct.

Well ya'll make your own evaluations. If you think it's special because whosits says so well fine.

its yo $, its you motor car, don whut ya wanna do.

[Haitian_King]

I spoke w/ a gentleman by the name of Scott @ BG of Kansas last week 04/16/08 concerning my concern about the MSDS ID:208 for 44K.

He was just as vague as Senator McClain is about his economic plan.

My concern centered around the MSDS ID 208 44K. It is as follows;

CAS#

Mixture Petroleum distillates 40-70% 8052-41-3 Mineral spirits 10-30%

He became a wee bit testy when asked if it contained kerosene, diesel fuel, furniture polish or paint thinner. Yes I know I can piss some people off but when direct questions are answered with such vagueness I tend to be very direct.

Well ya'll make your own evaluations. If you think it's special because whosits says so well fine.

its yo $, its you motor car, don whut ya wanna do.

Don't you hate asking a direct question and getting everything in the world but your answer? Drives me up the wall.

[goody90q45]

.......so kinda makes you wonder, as sometimes what is NOT said is more revealing than a paragraph of technobabble {just ask brian}......

Sorry. I'm not supposed to laugh.

[NightRiderQ45]

I spoke w/ a gentleman by the name of Scott @ BG of Kansas last week 04/16/08 concerning my concern about the MSDS ID:208 for 44K.

He was just as vague as Senator McClain is about his economic plan.

My concern centered around the MSDS ID 208 44K. It is as follows;

CAS#

Mixture Petroleum distillates 40-70% 8052-41-3 Mineral spirits 10-30%

He became a wee bit testy when asked if it contained kerosene, diesel fuel, furniture polish or paint thinner. Yes I know I can piss some people off but when direct questions are answered with such vagueness I tend to be very direct.

Well ya'll make your own evaluations. If you think it's special because whosits says so well fine.

its yo $, its you motor car, don whut ya wanna do.

I have two cans left and I won't purchase anymore after that. I will just use Redline

[Infinitiguy19]

What a shame I only got to put one can of BG44k in my Q.

Guess I will try Redline.

[maxnix]

Unfortunately the EPA accepts > 50 chemicals as detergents for gasoline and there are no public tests about how much of what cleans how much.

Some detergents actually create new deposits while cleaning other deposits. Sometimes it is better to use [alternate between] two different brands if they are infact different!

"Engine dynamometer tests were conducted to evaluate the effect of detergent additives and gasoline components on combustion chamber deposits (CCD). Additives with polyether amine (PEA) and with polyolefin amine (POA) chemicals were used. Our results show that some kinds of additives and aromatics in gasoline increase CCD formation. Deterent polyolefin detergents show different tendency of CCD formation.

The amount of CCD showed good relationship with the unwashed gum level of the gasoline. In general, smaller dosages produce less CCD. This means that detergents which have good IVD and PFID effectiveness at smaller dosage are better with regard to CCD."

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fu...s.htm

Interesting read as neither BG44K nor the Red Line SI-1 nor SI-2 contain detergents. Techron gaosline addtive does, but neither Techron Concentrate Plus Fuel System Cleaner nor Pro-Gard Gas Treatment do. Most other fuel additives do not, even the "MOPAR Fuel Detergent".

Mystery packaging. What did H. L. Mencken alledgedly say?

Plato said, "In the land of the bllind, the one eyed man is king."

[qship96]

Interesting read as neither BG44K nor the Red Line SI-1 nor SI-2 contain detergents. Techron gaosline addtive does, but neither Techron Concentrate Plus Fuel System Cleaner nor Pro-Gard Gas Treatment do. Most other fuel additives do not, even the "MOPAR Fuel Detergent".

Mystery packaging. What did H. L. Mencken alledgedly say?

Plato said, "In the land of the bllind, the one eyed man is king."

Say what? http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/15.pdf
Modified by qship96 at 4:59 PM 4/25/2008

[Q45tech]

Easy to tell if a FI cleaner works with your monthly Power Balance Test either with Consult or the personal software lap top version of Consult.

If the Power Balance ratios change or don't change.

You can evaporate a can of BG44k with MILD HEATING [hot summer days] to see the ~~1 ounce of residual [~~9%] vs the petro hydrocarbons used as a carrier solvent.

Why they make the more agressive 210 and 211 [wear oxygen]http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemic....html

[qship96]

Seafoam doesn't include anything harmful or helpful in keeping fuel system clean. Just Pale oil, IPA. and Naphtha. See MSDShttp://www.seafoamsales.com/pdf/MSDS_SFTT_US.pdfThe IPA isopropyl alcohol does most of the work...................even secret ingredents must be shown on MSDS, guess there are none.Another snakeoil marketing product

On the other hand BG shows detergents:ALKANOLAMINE FATTY ACID ESTER, POLYOLETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOPROPYL ETHER 2807-30-9 * AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE 1336-21-6 METHYL AMYL ALCOHOL 108-11-2 OLEIC ACID 112-80-1 * XYLENE 1330-20-7 * ETHYL BENZENEhttp://www.bgfleming.com/products/msds/208.pdf Qtech, your above post lists a bunch of ingredients that you claim bg44k includes, however after reading the link you provide above... only one ingredient{the first one in your above list} is listed in the MSDS....can you explain the above list to us, as you indicate every ingredient MUST be listed in the msds, no secrets, and I for one dont see any of them except the first

[maxnix]

Say what? http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/15.pdf

Says

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fu...s.htm

The EPA document Q45tech linked.

[captainluigi]

Just as interesting is the current MSDS for 44K only shows a mixture petro.chems. in 40-70% con. & min. spirits in 10-30% con. It does not list ANY amines specifically.

An aside; The Quick Clean for A/T,s & Quick Clean for Eng. carry identical chem make up but two diff. MSDS #. 105 & 106.

[qship96]

[QUOTE=q45tech] Seafoam doesn't include anything harmful or helpful in keeping fuel system clean. Just Pale oil, IPA. and Naphtha. See MSDShttp://www.seafoamsales.com/pdf/MSDS_SFTT_US.pdfThe IPA isopropyl alcohol does most of the work...................even secret ingredents must be shown on MSDS, guess there are none.Another snakeoil marketing product

On the other hand BG shows detergents:ALKANOLAMINE FATTY ACID ESTER, POLYOLETHYLENE GLYCOL MONOPROPYL ETHER 2807-30-9 * AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE 1336-21-6 METHYL AMYL ALCOHOL 108-11-2 OLEIC ACID 112-80-1 * XYLENE 1330-20-7 * ETHYL BENZENEhttp://www.bgfleming.com/products/msds/208.pdf

Qtech, your above post lists a bunch of ingredients that you claim bg44k includes, however after reading the link you provide above... only one ingredient{the first one in your above list} is listed in the MSDS....can you explain the above list to us, as you indicate every ingredient MUST be listed in the msds, no secrets, and I for one dont see any of them except the first {qship96}

Captain,I would like to hear q45techs explanation of this...maybe we are missing something?

[NightRiderQ45]

Me 3!

[captainluigi]

The silence is thunderous.

Silence speaks volumes.

Tis better to remain silent and let others assume than to speak and remove doubt.

Silence is golden.

Silence is not standing up.

Nuff said. I'll shut up now.

[Haitian_King]

The silence is thunderous.

Silence speaks volumes.

Tis better to remain silent and let others assume than to speak and remove doubt.

Silence is golden.

Silence is not standing up.

Nuff said. I'll shut up now.

Oh. Snaps.