So I sat my engine in yesterday, and ..............

[craigztoyz]

Here are a few pics and a new idea, well not new, but i dont see anyone doing it.







Ok, so I know that the engine needs to go back a few inchs still, but I just wanted to scope it out, and see how tight it really fits. DAMN but on the other hand, . So why am I going to go and move the sump to the rear when there is plenty of space up front to put it, especially when I lower my swaybar an inch or so, and, maybe the subframe a 1/2 inch. If I try what I think I am going to, then I would just section the mid section and front, and then I could add a 1/2 sump in front of the swaybar, coming out to about the back of the alt belt, and recessed enough to get the front bolts in and out. The pickup would need little mod, and dipstick still works.

Just looking for some thoughts, and discussion on this. I'd save me a crapload of welding time,maybe, no pickup tube welding, and oil stays up front, but could add a rear for extra, but it sure looks like this is a good idea. Only thing in way is sway, and subframe. Move the a/c line. OH and the space between the a/c comp and swaybar, wow! even lowering the bar an inch, the compressor needs to come in towards the motor a 1/4 inch, 1/2 would clear better. But considering that that is a full motor, minus the p/s pump, it sits in the bay pretty well. Thanx alot for input, and thoughts

[craigztoyz]

here are more pics and a little bit of insight on how tight it really fits. 1/2 on each side (alt/frame, oil filter/frame). Obviously from pic, needs to go back and tilt up at back to get lined up straight, but gives alot more insight. Oh and this first pic, is my new favorite pic. I want it for my avatar, how do I do that?

[z1 zonly]

Damn! That front clearance SUCKS. I hope there's a lot more room to move it back to fit a radiator, or, God forbid, fans!

SSDwellah is running the stock Q sump ahead of the crossmember. But he's already had to replace an oil pan from damage due to being so far forward.

I wouldn't mess with lowering your subframe either. Then you get into screwing with the suspension geometry.
Modified by z1 zonly at 9:43 PM 4/20/2008

[craigztoyz]

Yeah, I only like geometry on the pool table.

I may f with the subframe a bit to make what clearance it will allow, and then mess with the mid section of the pan to get it down, and the front a bit for the swaybar, but as of this morning, I am now going front sump. maybe a lil rear for extra, maybe 2 quarts.

Biggest reason on front sump, is it is already designed that way, and the pickup is up there already. n after having it in place, not as much pan mods.

yeah it went back flush eng/trans, and that was about 3 inches back from those pics.

I am a little worried about the pan and ground clearance though. If it is as low as i think then I will have to add a skid plate to save it.

[T45]

IIRC my sway bar was super close to hitting that adjustment bolt on the a/c idler so if you get the engine far back enough it just may clear. Like I said in my earlier posts, I never investigated the front sump so I can be of no help. Maybe you can scoot it back far enough to get past the sway bar and even move the sway bar forward an inch or so for some clearance. I have a ST bar and SPL links which are adjustable to allow more forward movement if needed, those may work for you.

The only negative I can see from doing a front sump is statistics. Both Ellis Autoworkz and GSRacers 240's ran a VH with high mileage and a front sump and both spun bearings. Not sure if it's from them flogging an old engine or the fact that the Q pan was never designed for a higher G acceleration than the Q obtains.

[Mettler]

Think about the total amount of work you're actually going to do, and how good the end result is going to be. I'm not convinced you'll end up with a job as nice or easy as if you just made a rear sump for it. :/

[rhinoone]

DAMN!!!

I never thought about putting the engine is sideways...

[z1 zonly]

I'm not convinced you'll end up with a job as nice or easy as if you just made a rear sump for it. :/

Big second, it's likely no easy task dropping the sway bar, not to mention SSDwellah had the Dixon adapter plate that spaced the engine/transmission by ~3/4." He told me he doubted it would clear without that extra forward push.

Here's an excerpt of an email from him:

I'm starting to wish more and more that I went with a custom rear sump setup because I probably would not be replacing the oil pan now; a rear sump would have been close to the wheels so anything I can driver over with one or both wheels would probably not hit the sump. That wouldn't protect me from the occasional raised manhole cover on a street in the process of being resurfaced, though.

Modified by z1 zonly at 9:44 PM 4/20/2008

[npez]

Apart from cost, does anyone see a reason why a dry-sump setup wouldn't resolve 99% of these clearance issues (along with all the benefits of a dry vs wet sump)?

It seems there's a bunch of fab work to get to a rear sump arrangement with physical oilpan modification, pickup tube modification, etc. The front sump arrangement while less work has the potential for pickup startvation under g's (maybe some internal baffling would help). Wouldn't a dry sump ultimately be the more elegant solution that would provide better lubrication, lower engine placement, and provide better clearance all around? The only integration that would need to happen as I see it:

-The oil pan would still need to be modified, but I believe to a significantly lesser extent than the "frankenpan" posted on the site here. -A remote reservoir would need to be fitted-The pressure/scavenger pumps would need to be driven & plumbed. (Bracket/Pulley fab - This is the most comlex task I see)

To me it seems like the best of all worlds. Am I missing something?

[Mettler]

It certainly does seem like a relatively simple and effective solution, but cost is in fact a major factor.

Dry sump oil pumps are not cheap, and building a reliable dry sump setup would prove to be not only more expensive, but probably just as much work/technical challenge as the other suggested solutions.

[John Dixon]

I dry-sumped mine to get the engine lower down.

Pic of sump and subframe, about 2mm clearence over steering rack (I've tidied up the pipework now too to get rid of the loops):

Sump on engine:



As previously mentioned, the plate I made up moves the engine forward about 1". I did that so that on my RHD car it cleared the brake and clutch master cyls and dropped the rear transmission mount in the original holes (about 1/2" lower than stock though). That meant I could re-use the stock prop, shifter etc.

I've fitted an inclined radiator to solve the problem with clearence (although an upright one would fit). Some pics here:http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/7228323

Oil cooler moved and some other stuff:

http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/7850486

[T45]

IMO the internal baffling only helps keep oil in the sump for a brief period. Even though the stock Q pan is baffled it still allows oil to escape given enough time and acceleration G's. On top of that the oil coming down through the galleys won't make it back into the pan due to the fact that as soon as it falls back into the pan it's under forces that won't allow it back into the sump. I'm not sure how much oil the factory pump flows, but if you're accelerating for 5 seconds under high load and high rpm's the sump would run out of oil pretty quickly at 5-7k rpms and pushing 80 psi. It only takes a little bit of air to trash an engine.

I'm sure some of our math minded members could tell us exactly how long....Tech?

The sway bar drop is pretty simple, just add some plate, square tubing and longer bolts. Could probably even be done without welding but I wouldn't try it.

[tmorgan4]

Man it's nice having other people that think the same way. I've been thinking about this exact issue in my application for some time. The front sump worked PERFECTLY for my existing chassis setup and I built my steering around it, but I'm worried it's going to get starved of oil on steep climbs. Anticipating 60+ degree climbs it's just asking for starvation with a front sump.

That dry sump setup is soooo nice John.

[Bart]

Hey John, love your dry sump setup, I wish i had done the same but i couldnt afford the pump

[John Dixon]

It has been expensive but I'm planning a lot of track time so thought it was the only way to do it properly. Having said that I would have had it finished ages ago if it wasn't for the complications it brings like having to re-locate the alternator etc.

[craigztoyz]

Lowering it I would use an aluminum spacer. That is what I do with the RX7s with V8s. works great. On the oil and g's that is my main worry about the front sump.

If I make it wider in the front to hold an extra quart or two, or three, then it'd help, and with a rack on the bottom of the pan as it will have in a few hours. I am going to try it, and see how it comes out, and if I can keep the height at the crossmembers height. I am going to do a rearsump for a local guy and see the differences.

[craigztoyz]

And Since my car is going to be a daily driver car, with the usual fun driving style I have, I am not too worried. I plan to add enough space to hold as much oil as I can, and see how it works. Worst case is I go and do it rearsump, but at least it will be documented as to how well it can work. i am cutting up my pan and tacking it tonight.

Looking to drop a few pics on here tomorrow. The see how well it will work. But oil starvation, is an issue, but time will tell. I meant rake as in decline in height in the post above.If my pan does hang lower than the xmember, It will have a skidplate. from subframe to strut rod mounts, looked at that at like 5am after pulling off the vavlecovers and intake. 2 hours of sleep and back to work

[rhinoone]

Instead of a full dry sump system, consider the 3 qt Accusump system. In my Vette I use one of these systems, run the engine 1 qt low for windage, and then have 3 qts available in the pressurized cylinder.

[craigztoyz]

update







This is where I am at today, tomorrow welding time. It celars great, and sits just as low as you guys with the rear sump. I have it flat back to the sump, with a little bit of a rise to clear the pickup, and will cut the pickup tube, turn it a little bit and reweld it. So far a lel work with a BFH, Anval, sawzall, and a lil cut-off wheel, and I got a pan for 20 at the autosalvage for $20, from a I4 toyota, oh well, metal is metal. cut it up for the patch pieces, and so far, piece of cake. Not worried about the oil starvation now. Hope this opens up eyes that there are numerous ways to do this, and no one way is perfect for all. the sump does sit an inch lower than the xmember, skidplate.

[craigztoyz]

less then 5 hours into pan, yes it needs a litttle more metal and cleaning, but it fits great, and is as low as it will go. Yes bottom sits a litttle low, but just as low as it does behind, so I need to make a guard for it, or skid plate.

[craigztoyz]

less then 5 hours into pan, yes it needs a litttle more metal and cleaning, but it fits great, and is as low as it will go. Yes bottom sits a litttle low, but just as low as it does behind, so I need to make a guard for it, or skid plate.

[craigztoyz]

[craigztoyz]

Update. Yeah It fits great! First pan, so I made it with a lot more clearance than it needs. There is space between it and xmember, swaybar, and all. Sending off trans to Mazworx Mon. THANK YOU T45 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Your posts on the mounts made my life a lot easier. This is becoming an easy swap, very quickly. If I do it right, I can use a socket and extensions to put the nuts on the botttom end of the mounts too! those of you not there yet, will understand soon, there is little space to turn a wrench n get the nuts on.

And I noticed at 4am lying under car, that with all that space back there, turbo's sure would be nice where mani's meet the h pipe. I hope to be ready to drive as soon as trans gets back, n I put it together. Enjoy, hope ya'll like the pics.Eng is exactly where it will sit, but I will lift it up 1/4" to get it off the steering rack.

[450zxtt]

looking good,hope to see you on the road soon...450zxttvh45dett power,baby!

[z1 zonly]

BTW, did you leave the heat shielding on the exhaust manis or no?

[T45]

I didn't. I cut the cats off the mani's and they still woudn't fit without touching so I took the shielding off and it frees up a lot of room.

[craigztoyz]

same here. trans goes on monday, so up to mazworx when i get to drive it. week or two. got my plates cut n drilled for my motor mounts, bolted to eng, sat in place, n when son goes to bed, I will weld them in, pull eng, n gusset her up. F'n easy swap so far, n my oil pan sits between wheels, NOT in front of it. But hood must make space.

[BRAAP]

Any new updates?

I’m currently contemplating installing my '96 VH45DE in my ’93 Z-32, (also considering my Supercharged SBC or GM LSx…). Due to the room in the engine, or more like lack of oil pan sump clearance with cross member and rack right in the middle of where we want to stick the engine, if we don’t to cut the firewall that is. I am liking the front sump design of the VH45DE and the LS1/2 in the GTO. It seems even the front sump of the VH45DE is giving us fits clearance wise. Another gentleman who swapped in a Turbo LT1 in his Z-32 modified his cross member for front sump clearance. I think he did that because he was originally going to use an SR20DET or something to that affect. Any how, he retained that modified cross member for his turbo LT1. From you fellas that have done the VH45DE--Z-32 conversion already, what are your thoughts regarding this? Aside from any strength issues you may see, wouldn’t this clear the OE VH45 oil pan? (This has been up and running, as far as I am aware, no issues with the design from structural standpoint…)

[T45]

From a clearance standpoint the VH should drop right in, that xmember is probably perfect for the front sump. It's a little wimpy for my taste but when you're completed with the engine and mounts you could always add in some more gussets/bars/plates etc. I like that!

[Carl H]

nothing wrong with a little bit of tubbing of the xmember...just gotta make sure its nice and strong!imho i'd have run 2 bars across as the vh pan fouls on the front most edge of the xmember and its not too terribly much from what ive seen so more space could be given to the xmember design that way.