so basically this is a threead about cusco vs autopower

I know most autopower brands are scca and nasa approved

but where does cusco stand between this?

Please don't **** on my thread I know I'm a newb I'm just looking for people with experience with the 2 thanks.

also bolt on vs weld on

I hear bolt on is satisfactory and unless I want to go extreme a weld on isnt really necessary.

bottom line just recommend roll cages for drifting as I am completely lost

also... is buying a used cage stupid? <--- or is this a stupid question all together

IMHO, weld in is better, because it is physically welded to the car, so your safety is not depending on bolts.

Basically, if you need a removable cage for daily drivability, you don't need a cage.

If you need a removable cage so you can have rear seat passengers when needed, you don't need a cage.

When it comes to that kind of safety, it's all or nothing.

Comparing a sti chassis to a 240 chassis is like comparing apples to oranges. One guy suggested weld in is better and everyone jumped on his nuts like hookers out of work. It is proven that the shear strength of a bolt is far greater then the shear strength of a weld. Safety 21 or Cusco (same company) is a legitimate cage in the D1 circuit. I don’t know how many of you are driving on that kind of level, but assumption leads me to believe that if so you wouldn’t be a member of NICO. A 4 point cusco saved a guy in a S14 roll over, why wouldn’t a 7 point cage do more?

A bolt can be installed while keeping full interior a weld in on the other hand is more difficult to achieve. I have saved enough weight in my car to keep the extra couple of pounds of a full interior and run a cage, I like the appearance of a complete car. I added a cage for one reason chassis rigidity you can not tell me that a welded cage will be in sturdier then a bolt in. It is proven.

There is more on this subject here, just SEARCH next time, and the post happy nut jumpers wont need apply.

im all for a bolt in cage, i actually plan on getting the 6 point cusco one, i believe.

Weld in cages are still bolted to the floor of a unibody car. but do not flex like a bolt in cage anywhere else in the structure. Try and prove that a bolt in cage is stronger and you are fighting a battle you will never win.

A pre purchased 4 or 6 point, there is no better than weld-in.

This is being moved to the road racing forum for better coverage by experienced guys.

Quote, originally posted by SlipnSliden 240 »

This thread is full of morons.

especially you dick****

cusco is a cage if you like to look good in shows, autopower bolt in is barely above that level

AT LEAST get a weld in autopower or etc

your best bet is a custon welded in cage from a real shop, youre in vancouver so im not quite sure exactly who youd go to

i want a cage in my street car, but ya know what, im waiting probably 2 years until ive got a daily and something to tow my car to the track with and whatnot, because ive got other stuff i can do before i get the cage and in the end i need all that other stuff too, so why not do the stuff that wont affect streetability, get that out of the way, then get the cage and a those few other things right when the car becomes a dedicated track car

Do you mind explaining how the hell a bolt is stronger than a weld?

Seriously, if a bolt-in cage is better than a weld-in, then why is it that most (if not all) professional racers WELD their cages in?

This should be good.

this should be interesting

You really should reserve your judgment of others unless you are absolutely sure of the validity of your arguments.

Quote »

Comparing a sti chassis to a 240 chassis is like comparing apples to oranges. One guy suggested weld in is better and everyone jumped on his nuts like hookers out of work. It is proven that the shear strength of a bolt is far greater then the shear strength of a weld.

Take a second and think what you're talking about. The shear strength of a bolt is indeed stronger than the shear strength of a weld -- but too bad that welded roll cages have welds that are loaded in tension, not shear. In our amateur shop, we've laid beads that we have physically tested to be ~95% the strength of solid, unwelded steel. That was done with a MIG, not a TIG -- a TIG weld will be a couple percentage points stronger than a MIG weld.

A bolt in shear could be stronger than a weld in tension, based on the quality of the weld and the diameter and grade of the bolt, but take a look at any bolt-on cage -- the tabs which the bolts engage are always planar tabs that are -- you guessed it -- welded on to other bars. The disadvantage of the bolt-together cage is that if the tabs are loaded with a non-planar force (i.e not in tension or compression), the tabs will fold at the weld, causing them to fail. A tube welded to another tube would not exhibit this failure mode unless the tube is kinked first.

Quote »

Safety 21 or Cusco (same company) is a legitimate cage in the D1 circuit. I don’t know how many of you are driving on that kind of level, but assumption leads me to believe that if so you wouldn’t be a member of NICO. A 4 point cusco saved a guy in a S14 roll over, why wouldn’t a 7 point cage do more?[quote] And yet, bolt-in Cusco cages fail to pass tech in just about every European and north American motorsport, INCLUDING autocross, which typically occurs at lower speeds. [quote]A bolt can be installed while keeping full interior a weld in on the other hand is more difficult to achieve. I have saved enough weight in my car to keep the extra couple of pounds of a full interior and run a cage, I like the appearance of a complete car. I added a cage for one reason chassis rigidity you can not tell me that a welded cage will be in sturdier then a bolt in. It is proven.

Proven by who? Can you show me any numerical evidence to support your claim that a weld-in cage is inferior to a bolt-in cage?

Actually, unless the holes in the bolt bosses and bolt tabs are reamed to EXACTLY the diameter of the bolt, Then chassis flex cannot be stopped with a bolt-in cage -- the cumulative amount of slop in a typical slip-fit, un-reamed, bolt-together joint is probably on the same order of point displacements caused by chassis torsion. Weld-together cages have no slop.

1991 Black 240sx Fastback 5spd - Blacktop S13 SR20DET - GTiR T28 @ 10psi

any body who drifts please tell me wht u run and wht events ur allowed into and wht you arent and why. I know cusco bars are just a little bit thinner than auto power but besides that thats all I know. don't know too much about cages.

You don't NEED a cage for drifting, especially since you want to "become" a drifter.

Go to events, there are many that don't require roll cages, and get practice in. THEN decide if you need a cage.

Save your money for suspension, tires, and lots and lots of seat time. As well as a fat wad of cash for when you break stuff (and you will).

We welded in the cage in our T-2 car and have 7 major points of contact to the welded in plates on the chasis. We also have two door bars that go into the gutted out left and right doors which also add considerable strength. Bolts and bolt holes are not anywhere near as strong as good welds. If you are in the Akron, Ohio area I can recommend a great cage builder. We consider him so good that we tow our car over 325 miles just to have him do our cages. Bob

like Neel said bolt in cages will do little if any for chassis stiffness, so that cant be considered

if youre really determined get the auto power bolt in bar, because thatll give you your roll protection and allow you a place to mount harnesses, but will be even cheaper than the cage so that later on if you decide to really get serious you can get a nice full cage installed easily

Are you going to drive around on the street wearing your helmet?

Doubt it. Roll cages are not meant for street cars. Get a daily, or don't get a cage.

Once more, you do not need a cage to drift.

He wants a cage to drift not road race. D1 does recognize a cusco cage as a legitimate cage. I could care less if NASCAR, NHRA, or FORMULA D recognize. I don’t consider left hand turns a legitimate motor sport, straight line racing is not my cup of tea, and I don’t drift for the paycheck.

Quote, originally posted by nismofa g »

LOL anyone who thinks a bolt in cage is legit needs to go back to putting apc steering wheels in their geo metros because anything more is over your head Quote, originally posted by SlipnSliden 240 » This thread is full of morons. especially you dick**** cusco is a cage if you like to look good in shows, autopower bolt in is barely above that level AT LEAST get a weld in autopower or etc your best bet is a custon welded in cage from a real shop, youre in vancouver so im not quite sure exactly who youd go to

I like it when you talk dirty dick****

A D1 driver with a APC steering wheel in a Geo Metro could probably out drive you. I dont know how many times I need to cover the fact that a cusco cage is a D1 approved cage. On a side note Autopower cages fit like $hit.

Quote, originally posted by lofapoo »

Do you mind explaining how the hell a bolt is stronger than a weld? Seriously, if a bolt-in cage is better than a weld-in, then why is it that most (if not all) professional racers WELD their cages in? This should be good.

I will get there.

Quote, originally posted by nismofa g »

not only that, but how many chassis do you know of that are bolted together? i can start naming chassis that are welded together anytime (basically any car short of a carbon fiber monocoque formula car) this should be interesting

If the factory spot welds with body glue are so superior why did I waste my time stich welding my car?

Quote, originally posted by AmoebAssassin »

Quote, originally posted by SlipnSliden 240 » This thread is full of morons. You really should reserve your judgment of others unless you are absolutely sure of the validity of your arguments. Quote » Comparing a sti chassis to a 240 chassis is like comparing apples to oranges. One guy suggested weld in is better and everyone jumped on his nuts like hookers out of work. It is proven that the shear strength of a bolt is far greater then the shear strength of a weld. Take a second and think what you're talking about. The shear strength of a bolt is indeed stronger than the shear strength of a weld -- but too bad that welded roll cages have welds that are loaded in tension, not shear. In our amateur shop, we've laid beads that we have physically tested to be ~95% the strength of solid, unwelded steel. That was done with a MIG, not a TIG -- a TIG weld will be a couple percentage points stronger than a MIG weld. A bolt in shear could be stronger than a weld in tension, based on the quality of the weld and the diameter and grade of the bolt, but take a look at any bolt-on cage -- the tabs which the bolts engage are always planar tabs that are -- you guessed it -- welded on to other bars. The disadvantage of the bolt-together cage is that if the tabs are loaded with a non-planar force (i.e not in tension or compression), the tabs will fold at the weld, causing them to fail. A tube welded to another tube would not exhibit this failure mode unless the tube is kinked first. Quote » Safety 21 or Cusco (same company) is a legitimate cage in the D1 circuit. I don’t know how many of you are driving on that kind of level, but assumption leads me to believe that if so you wouldn’t be a member of NICO. A 4 point cusco saved a guy in a S14 roll over, why wouldn’t a 7 point cage do more? Quote » And yet, bolt-in Cusco cages fail to pass tech in just about every European and north American motorsport, INCLUDING autocross, which typically occurs at lower speeds. [quote]A bolt can be installed while keeping full interior a weld in on the other hand is more difficult to achieve. I have saved enough weight in my car to keep the extra couple of pounds of a full interior and run a cage, I like the appearance of a complete car. I added a cage for one reason chassis rigidity you can not tell me that a welded cage will be in sturdier then a bolt in. It is proven. Proven by who? Can you show me any numerical evidence to support your claim that a weld-in cage is inferior to a bolt-in cage? Actually, unless the holes in the bolt bosses and bolt tabs are reamed to EXACTLY the diameter of the bolt, Then chassis flex cannot be stopped with a bolt-in cage -- the cumulative amount of slop in a typical slip-fit, un-reamed, bolt-together joint is probably on the same order of point displacements caused by chassis torsion. Weld-together cages have no slop.

Ok lets talk tensile strength

The tensile strength of an average weld is 70,000 psi
The tensile strength of a SAE grade 8 bolt is rated at over 150,000 Psi

This would result in the welds of the brackets the weak points of a bolt together cage.

Thanks to Dustinmikl(a member here, a quick search brought me back to the last thread this was discussed in.)

Quote, originally posted by .Grimace »

hey slipnsliden 240, reading > you. i said i didn't want my cage held together with bolts. it doesn't matter if its a 240 or a sti it's bolted together. i would use a safety 21 cage because i do know that bolting it to the chassis is safe.

Clarity > you. You said nothing about whether or not you wanted a cage held together with bolts. You said "example, want this being your safety?" Then proceded to present a picture of a STI with a cusco cage. The OP said nothing about a cage for a STI he wants ideas for his 240. Cusco and safety 21 are the same company.

Quote, originally posted by racerbob4 »

The Cusco cage doesn't even have a crossbar from the upper drivers side to the lower passengers side on the main hoop. The hoop takes the brunt of the load on roll over.

This is a 4 point cusco roll bar, not a cage, it held just fine.

My goal isnt to look like a jack@ss. My idea is to pass some information around so that people like the op can make educated choices. He does not need a weld in cage. That is over kill for him and 90% of this forum. I am just trying to convey that message

Seriously, do you think before you type? Despite how boring NASCAR or NHRA may be to watch, the fact of the matter is that your average run of the mill NASCAR vehicle will be traveling at over 150mph at its point of impact. NHRA pro cars get about that high by the time they cross the finish line. The major point of a roll cage is safety foremost. But yet, you'd disregard a cage that passes tech in those faster and potentially more violent forms of motor sports, versus drifting, where your typical speeds are like, 60-80mph (at a pro level)? You say that the bolt-together cage is "safe enough," but why would you not spend a little more to have a MUCH safer weld-together cage?

Quote »

If the factory spot welds with body glue are so superior why did I waste my time stich welding my car?

Body epoxy is acceptable from a cost of manufacture standpoint. You expect performance (or expect to give the impression of a performance car), so you stitch welded your car. Answer his question, find a modern sports car that is bolted together versus spot and seam welded.

Quote »

Ok lets talk tensile strength The tensile strength of an average weld is 70,000 psi The tensile strength of a SAE grade 8 bolt is rated at over 150,000 Psi This would result in the welds of the brackets the weak points of a bolt together cage.

And again, the bolt is loaded in shear, while the welds are loaded in tension. You aren't aware of the relationship between the strength of a cross-sectional area in tension versus the identical area in shear, are you?

The weak point of the bolt-in cage would indeed be the welded tabs, but the length of weld on two tabs is less than the length of weld around the diameter of a tube, making two tabs welded to a tube weaker than a tube welded to another tube.

Quote »

This is a 4 point cusco roll bar, not a cage, it held just fine.

That car rolled once, in soft dirt at horsetheif mile in California. I doubt that cage would have stood up to multiple rollovers on a more resistive surface.

Quote »

My goal isnt to look like a jack@ss. My idea is to pass some information around so that people like the op can make educated choices. He does not need a weld in cage. That is over kill for him and 90% of this forum. I am just trying to convey that message

You're passing around wrong information, and he does not need a cage period, until he starts tandem.

heres a vid in case you havent seen it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqM9KXkkRnQ

and btw, i wasnt necessarily implying factory cars, more like any real cage or tube chassis, but regardless im still waiting for you to find me any car that has major structural components bolted together...no fanb0i "d1 allows it and they know more about safety than anybody so it must be ok" here either

Have you tried to comprehend any of my posts before you reply? I never said I didn’t trust the safety of those cars. I said I am not concerned with those types of racing because I don’t compete in them. I explained why I ran a bolt in cage, I wanted to keep full Interior. I could have fabricated my own weld in cage for cheaper then the price I paid for my safety 21. The cost was not the issue. I have a daily driver, I wanted a cage in this vehicle for the fact of I will not run bucket seats and harnesses with out one. I even welded a harnesses bar into my cage.

Quote, originally posted by AmoebAssassin »

And again, the bolt is loaded in shear, while the welds are loaded in tension. You aren't aware of the relationship between the strength of a cross-sectional area in tension versus the identical area in shear, are you? The weak point of the bolt-in cage would indeed be the welded tabs, but the length of weld on two tabs is less than the length of weld around the diameter of a tube, making two tabs welded to a tube weaker than a tube welded to another tube.

Ok so now I understand you want the tensile strength of the weld, and the shear strength of the bolt.

The tensile strength of an average weld is 70,000 psi
The shear strength of a fine-threaded hex bolt has a minimum shear strength of 95,000 psi

If you scroll back up ^ to the picture of that STI cage, one can see that the tabs are welded all the way around the main hoop. So two tabs holding the joint together are twice the length.

Quote, originally posted by nismofa g »

let me know when a cusco cage lets joey hand walk away from cartwheeling 8 some odd times in his m3 at mid ohio, because ill probably be to busy watching pigs fly and btw, i wasnt necessarily implying factory cars, more like any real cage or tube chassis, but regardless im still waiting for you to find me any car that has major structural components bolted together...no fanb0i "d1 allows it and they know more about safety than anybody so it must be ok" here either

First off if any motor sport is "fanb0i" it would be formula d. I am not hating on the series, I am hating on the basis of which it began.

How do you weld fiberglass together? Take the Corvette, its a production car.

But once again you do not understand the op's original question. He is not a professional race car driver. He is like you or me. He will not flip his 240sx eight times at mid Ohio. He will most likely never roll it at all. He doesn’t need all the benefits of a weld in cage.

If any thing your posts have been full of crap. The only one here who has yet and probably will find a fault in my response is AmoebAssassin. You are just bandwagon jumping this argument, most likely the same way bandwagon jumped into the 240 scene.

To answer his question, autopower cages fit like $hit. Your best bet is to go with a used 7 point bolt in. Once you advance to a professional level then I would consider a custom fabricated weld in cage.

But for the OP's purposes, a quality bolt in cage will be just fine, as long as he isn't drifting in any professional series that require NASA/SCCA type legal cages. They should be fine in protecting a person in pretty much any rollover that could ocurr when drifting.

Now for ultimate protection and rigidity, everybody knows that a WELL fabricated custom cage is the way to go. But you don't really need something at this level unless you are doing wheel to wheel racing or high speed hpde's.

I'm just pretty sick of the idea that bolt in cages offer no protection in rollovers, because it is simply not true.

thats why i keep saying, it doesn't matter if it's a sti or a 240sx. all the cusco cages are held together like that. i know cusco and safety 21 are 1 company i'd buy an autopower roll bar if i were to buy one.

I called a local race shop for a roll bar, down bars and a harness bar. They said it would be about 500.00 for the whole set-up. If you don't need a cage, and are just looking for roll protection I would consider a proper roll bar as an inexpensive alternitive. All real cages are welded together PERIOD.

Also, a cage in a street car is a BAD idea, I have a hard head, but steal is harder.

Find a local race shop, A real one, not some import tuner shop. A place that biulds cages for a living, look for some one that can build NASA, SCCA, or the like spec cages that will pass a tech inspection. Tell them what your goals, and needs are and ask them what they suggest, and how much it will cost. I bet it will be cheaper than you might think. Best way to find a good shop is to get a hold of some real racers, go to the local track, or find a locul forum or something in your area, and ask who does good work. I know several people in KC that build cages, FWIW.

Also, my roll bar in my miata, which passes SCCA crash testing is all welded together. It bolts into the chassis in four places with huge backing plates and bolts to the seatbelt tower in four places.

.02

FLAME AWAY!

Shift_ZOOM-ZOOM

You opted for a more expensive option, even though that option is generally only allowed in D1, and few other standard motorsports...that seems illogical to me.

Regardless -- for the record, one of the local 240sx guys has a chassis with a NHRA 8.50s legal full weld-in cage, WITH the full interior required for his class, so weld-in with full interior is definitely do-able, and I've seen it with my own eyes. I'll try to find you some pics.

Quote »

Ok so now I understand you want the tensile strength of the weld, and the shear strength of the bolt. The tensile strength of an average weld is 70,000 psi The shear strength of a fine-threaded hex bolt has a minimum shear strength of 95,000 psi If you scroll back up ^ to the picture of that STI cage, one can see that the tabs are welded all the way around the main hoop. So two tabs holding the joint together are twice the length.

I agree that a bolt in shear is typically stronger than a weld in tension, however, the real safety gain going from a bolt-in cage to a weld-in cage is the elimination of the tabs inherent in the design of a bolt-in cage. Even though the tabs are welded all the way around the bar, tabs are only strong when they are loaded purely in tension and compression. However, when a car rolls, the impact mechanics will almost never exert a purely planar load on the tabs. There will always be large amounts of bending and torsion in the tab when a car experiences a collision with a bolt-in cage. Because of the large out-of-plane loads on the tabs, they are VERY prone to bending, and are likely to fail as the act of impact/rollover continues. I've actually seen this effect first-hand on a local kid's civic w/ bolt-in cage.

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How do you weld fiberglass together? Take the Corvette, its a production car.

Corvettes have always been metal frame cars and no production version has ever featured a composite monocoque. The extensive use of composites is mostly in the exterior body panels (as well as the floor pan of the C6 Z06). These body and chassis panels are bolted to the metal structure, which absorbs and distributes more or less the entire load of cornering and collision.

As for your comment that the OP doesn't need the benefits of a weld-in roll cage -- I think it's prudent, as far as roll cages go, to get the safest option -- you never know when you're going to need the protection. Why short change yourself and end up regretting it later if you are, god forbid, involved in a serious accident?

1) cusco cages may be 100% legal in japan but in the US they are not legal for use by ANY sanctioning body. PERIOD. and last i checked most of us posting in this thread are from the US. D1 isnt running here anymore (in fact, they are about to tank in japan too if anyone cares, thats right D1 is about to disappear). SEVERAL of their cars/drivers are coming over here to run FD in 08 and are having to totally redo cages and get new helmets because japan's safety requirements are so relaxed. here a cusco cage is a show cage. nothing more. go have your