1994 Q45a Starting Problems

[Jmanolinsky]

Hello,

A few months ago I had a problem starting my Q. I at first thought that the solenoid was not kicking out the gear on the starter and engaging it into the flywheel, but I am not sure that was the problem at all. After making sure the battery wasn't the culprit, I finally got the car to start up after sitting dead for about a week. It sputtered and then slowly came to life. I figured this was due to the multiple attempts at starting, thus flooding the cylinders with fuel. It has been driven almost everday, with multiple starts, since then without so much as a hickup...until yesterday. I went to start it up and it just clicked once and then nothing. I tried tapping on the starter, moving the shift lever and a couple of other things and nothing helped. I let it set there for about 5 hours and then tried it again. It started right up without hesitation. It also started again this morning. I need to figure this out so I don't replace parts that don't need replacing and so that I don't get stranded again. This car is my daily driver. I have had it almost seven years and put over a 110 K on it. It currently has almost 172K on the odometer. I'd love to hear any comments or theories that you guys may have.

Thanks in Advance,Jman

PS: I did several searches and saw some related posts, but didn't really see an answer

[qsiguy]

My money would be on the starter solenoid which you replace with the starter as one unit. If you could duplicate the problem and check the voltage at the starter while it's acting up that would tell the story. If the soleniod was clicking each time strongly I would say the starter motor but since it's just one click and nothing I would start checking for proper voltage at the starter.

The hammer trick doesn't always work but in my experience works best if someone is holding the key in the crank position while you smack it. Just make sure all your arms and legs are out of the way when it cranks!

[Q45tech]

Usually the starter control relay fails before the starter or ignition switch.

[Jmanolinsky]

OK, but can the relay work, then not work, then work once again? I wouldn't think so. Are you talking about the blue relay at the firewall near the ABS? Is there an easy way to check these relays to see if they are good? I have a couple laying around that I'm not sure of their condition.

Thanks for the help,

Jman

PS: qsiguy, my Q is Crimson Pearl too! Great color!

[Q45tech]

Historiacally this relay lasts ~~150k or about 8-9 years.

In fact other than ABS and TCS relay this is the only other relay we keep instock.

After testing battery this is the first item replaced long before we bother to test anything about the starter.

At your mileage you must be prepared for the key cylinder to become intermitent.

Starters per se rarely fail unless abused by hanging keys/signals.

Mine has 17 years and 313k ~~ 15,000 starts.

[Jmanolinsky]

Since bringing my Q home the night the problem ocurred, I've probably started it 8-10 times, moving it from the driveway to get the boat out of the garage or just checking to see if it would start. It has started fine each time. Last night I decided to drive it to meet my family for dinner. Naturally when I went to leave the restaurant, it would not start. I tried several times, but nothing. I opened the hood and tapped on the blue relay at the firewall and snugged up the connection and it fired right up. Did I find the problem or was this just a coincidence? I sure don't know.

Jman

PS: Is there a way to check the ignition switch? I'd like to eliminate possible causes of this problem without replacing unbroken parts.
Modified by Jmanolinsky at 11:49 AM 5/14/2007

[Q451990]

It sounds like that relay to me. Relays are very often intermittant failure items. In your situation, it almost sounds like the "hot soak" from driving for a while may be what triggers the problem.

If you really want to diagnose the issue, you would need to look at the FSM (factory service manual) to check to see which pins on the relay harness are coming from the ignition switch. Then check those with a multimeter when the problem occurs to make sure the coil on the relay is getting either ground or 12V (whatever the ignition switch is sending). Otherwise you're just guessing... but the fact that you moved that relay - then it "fixed itself" sure sounds like that's your issue.

Good luck!

Heath

[qsiguy]

Yes, the only way to verify proper power throughout your system is to test it with a multimeter. If you don't have one, get one. They can be purchased for 20-30 for a decent digital one at many places. Harbor Freight has sales all the time on a couple of their models for <= $5 and they are surprisingly nice. I have a few laying around so I always have one available. If you don't have the FSM you can download one at http://www.phatg20.net If you have trouble figuring out which circuit or where to check let us know. I post snapshots of the diagrams marked with test spots all the time.

[Jmanolinsky]

I have the FSM and a multimeter. I am not sure what I need to be checking for though.

Thanks,

Jman

[qsiguy]

Here is something to start with. This is from the FSM. The wires I've traced over with red is the path the 12V+ take from the battery to the starter solenoid. This is the circuit that will go hot at the starter when you turn the key to the crank position. The main 12V+ wire on the diagram should be pretty obvious.

You want to do some tests at the fuses it passes through, the relays it goes through on both sides of the contacts "starter relay", Inhibitor switch. The signal for the starter relay goes through the Theft Warning Relay-2 so you'll need to check that out.

[Jmanolinsky]

Should I be seeing an attachment in you post? If so, I don't. It could be the restrictions on my computer here at work.

Thanks,

Jman

[maxnix]

There is a linked embedded graphic. Follow the URL.

[Jmanolinsky]

Where? I don't see one anywhere.

Jman

[96Qowner]

It shows up fine for me. Can you right click and view image?

Or does this work for you?

http://i78.photobucket.com/alb...m.jpg

[AlkYMiXr]

If the realys are clicking does that mean they are working??? or can they click and still be bad????

[qsiguy]

If the relay is clicking it rules out that the coil is bad or that it's not getting a signal. The contacts could be bad or the supply voltage could be missing to the contacts. To test the contacts check that the relay contact has supply voltage then after the relay clicks you should have voltage on the output contact. If you have the contact in/out disconnected you can check the contacts with an ohmmeter to make sure it conducts when the relay is energized.