Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:18 AM 3/14/2007 |
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So, I just picked up a neat new toy to aid in the documentation process of "Project Slicktop".
 I'm going to start tearing into the car a bit over the weekend. You may keep an eye out as I most likely will be selling most if not all of the parts that I remove from the vehicle. If everything goes as planned, I should have the following removed for weigh in on Sunday. 1. Front and Rear Mudflaps 2. 6-Disc CD Changer 3. Rear Carpet 4. Various Hatch Plastics 5. All rear insulation 6. Rear hatch weight 7. Rear wiper 8. Rear fluid sprayer and associated lines 9. Cargo Cover 10. Antenna Assembly 11. Spare Tire, Jack, Wheel Chock's, etc. 12. Headlight Aimers
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:18 AM 3/14/2007 |
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Well, I went to dyno the slicktop yesterday. I guess you could say that I'm fairly pleased with the outcome, though of course if it were more, I would've been very happy. Seeing as the car has 96k on it and pretty much original everything I was expecting about 165hp to the tire. we pulled a little more then that out, though we couldn't hear it, it appears that the car was detonating at the low end and again at the top if you look at how the car pulls timing there... weird. It's been a while since I've seen a NA dyno, but I'm pretty sure that's not normal. 173.09 hp and 161.14 lb ft to the tire.
 Next Up, some weight reduction, some maintenance, and of course a little modification. 
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:19 AM 3/14/2007 |
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So, nothing really got done weight reduction wise this weekend, however, I'll go ahead and post up what we have done. I'd like to start by thanking my wonderful hand model and amazing girlfriend, Megan, for almost getting excited (at least enough to help) about this project. Starting in the rear, I removed the following items from the car. Cargo Cover - 5 pound 4 ounces
 Tire Inflator (man this thing was in horrible shape) - 1 pound 5 ounces
 Before you ask, yes, the weight of the bag was taken out of the mix. You weigh with the bag already on there, zero out the scale and weigh again.
 Waferboard Spare Tire Cover - 2 pounds 15 ounces
 Spare Tire - 32 pounds 8 ounces (I totally didn't expect it to weigh this much)
 T-Top Straps and Spare Tire Strap - 6 ounces (Why the hell they put T-Top straps in a slicktop, I'm not sure)
 Wheel Chocks - 11 ounces

 Jack - 3 pounds 8 ounces
 Total weight savings to date - 46 lbs 6 ounces Bringing the weight of the vehicle with full fluids and a full tank of gas to approximately 3233 pounds.
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:20 AM 3/14/2007 |
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Center Tray Carpet, associated insulation, screws, bolts, padding, etc. - 4 lbs 0 ounces
 Hatch center plastics and associated bolts, etc. - 1 lb 15 ounces
 Headlight aiming tools and fuel pump covers - 1 lb 14 ounces
 Driver Side speaker cover - 3 lbs 10 ounces
 Passenger Side speaker cover - 3 lbs 8 ounces
 Driver side brake light cover - 2 lbs 9 ounces
 Passenger side brake light cover - 2 lbs 11 ounces
 Wasps nest - aka Headlight aiming tools - 1 lb 7 ounces

 Center panel reverse lights plastics - 1 lb 12 ounces
 Hatch strut covers both - 1 lb 12 ounces
 Rear Windshild wiper and motor - 2 lbs 14 ounces
 Antenna Assembly - 2 lbs 3 ounces
 Mud flaps - 1 lbs 8 ounces
 6 disk CD changer, FM Transmitter and associated wiring - 10lbs 5 ounces
 Hatch cover carpet - 5lbs 2 ounces
 Misc bs, carpet parts, insulation, etc. - 1 lb 9 ounces
 Total weight loss today 48.6 lbs bringing our test weight to 3184.4 lbs Our test weight is now 2lbs lighter then a 300zx Slicktop with 0 fluids in it. No gas, no oil, no diff, no tranny, no windshield washer fluid, etc. We were a little low on gas for this shot, but nevertheless, here she is on the scales. I'll do another one full tank of gas very soon.
 There will be no weight reduction done next week, as I'll be spending the weekend driving the slicktop at an event at Mid-America Motorplex and then coming back to Kansas City to take her to her first Autocross.
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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:20 AM 3/14/2007 |
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Taking my father around the track.
 Little bit of lean
 Aiming for a cone. 
 Ouch.
 Just get it in...
 Strapped in. Notice the nice oil spot behind the trailer
 Matt, Chad and I cry about it.
 Mikey is glad it wasn't him, I am glad he missed the slick I left behind me.

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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:21 AM 3/14/2007 |
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Drivers side
 Passenger side
 The oil pan (what we saw after getting off the track)
 What we didn't see. The top side
 Banged up
 Number 6 Connecting rod (the culprit)

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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:24 AM 3/14/2007 |
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The update on the project is as follows. It's been several months since I've done anything, it's winter, isn't it? The engine is actually out of the car now and sitting on a stand as is a long block that suffered from a timing belt failure. As you can see from the above pictures the bottom end of the factory engine is shot. The top end of the long block is shot from a timing belt blow. The idea was to Frankenstein the two together to make one engine. However, I recently arranged for pickup of a good condition NA engine in Omaha, NE from my most helpful friends in Zone. I'll hopefully be heading up there the week after Christmas or the first week of the New Year to pick it up. The plan is to have the car on the road and running by the first of Feb. Stay Tuned.
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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:26 AM 3/14/2007 |
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My personalized tags finally came in. She's never getting converted now, I have officially commited to NA.
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:28 AM 3/14/2007 |
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Ok, after months and months of sitting, I'm finally starting to make some progress. I love this time, ordering parts time... it's like Christmas in March. Todays delivery:




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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 11:28 AM 3/14/2007 |
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These beauties arrived today. Specialty Z's work never ceases to amaze me, these are absolutely perfect. 2.5", unresonated... I have a feeling they are going to be pretty loud, which of course, I'm fine with. : Bolts and gaskets
 Fantastic craftsmanship



 Please ignore the filthy floor near my cube.
 The other way
 I've been told that my engine should be arriving late today or early tomorrow, stay tuned. 
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clickdoc

Offline
158 posts
1990 300zx NA
lombard il
2-27-2007
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 2:24 PM 3/14/2007 |
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i love your preoject & committment to staying NA -- it is funny -- the TT guys are Horsepower Nazis & addicts -- i live in chicago -- and i don't know what i would do with the mildly upgraded 400hp TT much less the 500-600 some of the guys are getting -- i love the challenge of getting the most out of my NA motor -- i have all the boltons HP gainer, & savers on my '90 except electric fan -- and lightened flywheel -- i also am exploring exhaust cutouts which would keep my completely legal unless i want to PLAY -- i had the straight pipes you have on your car on my last Z which go crushed by a ford F150 -- make sure to go with a lightened flywheel on yhour new build -- makes a HUGE difference !! keep up the good work on your Z.
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gpelite

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355 posts
1990 300zx TT
Milwaukee WI
8-9-2005
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| « Re: Project Slicktop (Honad) | 2:48 PM 3/14/2007 |
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niiice, I might strip down my ride more than I planned lolSeein the actual numbers makes a big difference
 1990 300zx Coupe Twin Turbo 1992 BMW e36 M3 Email: Elitearmageddon@hotmail.com AIM: GPELITE
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nsrZ32
Super Moderator

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17921 posts
90 300ZX TT, 78 280Z, 71 521 Pickup, 98 Sentra 2.0 SE, 02 Altima 3.5 SE, 01 Focus s2
Cleveland Ohio
10-15-2004
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Nice post!You're as much of a weight nazi as I am. I weigh everything, including all the engine components, parts, etc. Looks like a fun project...shame you didn't go TT though
-Jerry
 ---George C. Taylor deceased 8/21/04 ...take care Dad--- ------NICO ROTM ------------Z History Thread ------
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evildky
Classic Z Moderator
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5571 posts
71 240ZT, 87 300ZXT, 91 300ZXTT, 93 SE-R
Louisville KY
1-31-2004
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great project, what hapened to the motor? oil starvation? thats a rare site in a VG! I'm a weight nazi as well but I'm also a HP whore do I'd vote for the turbo as well  and you need to get rid of those heavy seats and that heavy dash, as well as the climate control, and nice Z31 btw
"if I had all the money I ever spent on cars........I'd spend it all on cars" 12.378 in a rusty datsun with a sliping clutch "The Rusty Mistress" 299.3 whp and 305 lbft TQ, 2105 lbs I'm cleaning out my garage, lots fo Z parts, S30, Z31 and Z32 here is my ebay listing http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZevildky if you're looking for something shoot me an e-mail, evildky@bellsouth.net
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (evildky) | 9:01 PM 3/14/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by evildky » | great project, what hapened to the motor? oil starvation? thats a rare site in a VG! I'm a weight nazi as well but I'm also a HP whore do I'd vote for the turbo as well  and you need to get rid of those heavy seats and that heavy dash, as well as the climate control, and nice Z31 btw |
All in the plans, of course. More weight reduction. I'm just trying to concentrate on getting a working car atm. The engine most likely went because it was oil starved in a high G corner causing the internals to heat up, it looks like the connecting rod basically came apart at some point, but there was little to no warning. Perhaps it was just old. 96k on the clock... I'll suppose I'll never know exactly what happened. I felt a small resistance in the engine, let out of it, shortly after the *curchunk* of internals and the aformentioned smokescreen. It all happened at very low RPM in happened in a straight line, oil pressure was fine when it actually "blew". Fwiw, I set my fastest lap time ever at MAM that lap... heh.| Quote, originally posted by nsrZ32 » | | Nice post! You're as much of a weight nazi as I am. I weigh everything, including all the engine components, parts, etc. Looks like a fun project...shame you didn't go TT though |
I have a 402whp TT as well. I figure one high horsepower car is enough, might as well see what we can do NA, ya know? The slicktop is for track/autox use mostly. I'll probably drive it to work occasionally on nice days, but it's staying NA for many reasons. Unfortunately, no engine delivery today, most likely it'll be tomorrow. Hopefully not Friday, I would rather get at least a little bit of work done this weekend. However, I did take some pictures this evening. It's been a while since I've even unlocked the car... it still smells like burnt oil inside.  My friend made the very observant comment that this is what my Twin Turbo looks like when it's launching... heh.
 

Damn area thieves took my engine!  

Yes, I've ordered a new hood security sensor...

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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 7:32 AM 3/15/2007 |
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Ok, so we did a little bit of weighing last night so that I can get the difference between the stock pieces and the aftermarket once everything gets swapped out. Driver Side Header - 5 lbs 14 ounces
 Passenger Side Header - 5 lbs 14 ounces (My dog in the lower right with a wtf look.)

 Header Gaskets - 14 ounces
 Driver Side Test Pipe - 9lbs 6 ounces

 Passenger Side Test Pipe - 9lbs 11 ounces

 Test Pipe Gaskets - 9 ounces
 Total weight was 32lbs 4 ounces for Headers and Test Pipes with appropriate gaskets and nuts and bolts. I'm pretty damn sure that the stock exhaust manifolds will weigh as much as that by themselves. Any bets on the weight of the stock stuff?
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nsrZ32
Super Moderator

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17921 posts
90 300ZX TT, 78 280Z, 71 521 Pickup, 98 Sentra 2.0 SE, 02 Altima 3.5 SE, 01 Focus s2
Cleveland Ohio
10-15-2004
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| « Re: (Honad) | 9:08 AM 3/15/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by Honad » | | I have a 402whp TT as well. I figure one high horsepower car is enough, might as well see what we can do NA, ya know? The slicktop is for track/autox use mostly. I'll probably drive it to work occasionally on nice days, but it's staying NA for many reasons. |
NA....blah As for 402whp....you need more! That's not near enough. Also, that drag time in your sig is for your NA right?
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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (nsrZ32) | 10:02 AM 3/15/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by nsrZ32 » | NA....blah As for 402whp....you need more! That's not near enough. Also, that drag time in your sig is for your NA right? |
Actually it's a long standing joke. I raced a friend of mine in her Integra at KCIR and the stipulation was that I couldn't use 1st or 4th gear. I rolled off the line in second without launching, shifted to third and never went to 4th. I blew by her about the 1000ft mark and then just sort of stayed in third. 15.028 @ 111mph to her 15.5 @ 83 or whatever.When people ask me, "What's that car run in the quarta, yo?" that's generally what I tell them. I really give two sh*ts about 1/4 mile racing, in fact I sort of despise how everyone uses 1/4 mile penis size as a measurement of what a car is made of. I go every once in a while for fun or for meets, etc.
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nsrZ32
Super Moderator

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17921 posts
90 300ZX TT, 78 280Z, 71 521 Pickup, 98 Sentra 2.0 SE, 02 Altima 3.5 SE, 01 Focus s2
Cleveland Ohio
10-15-2004
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| « Re: (Honad) | 11:30 AM 3/15/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by Honad » | | When people ask me, "What's that car run in the quarta, yo?" that's generally what I tell them. I really give two sh*ts about 1/4 mile racing, in fact I sort of despise how everyone uses 1/4 mile penis size as a measurement of what a car is made of. I go every once in a while for fun or for meets, etc. |
I agree 100% Sadly that's always one of the first things people ask me when they see the car. Since you listed the time in your sig I figured you were a drag racing fan and didn't want to offend Anyway, something else to do when people ask "what's it run?" is tell them your most recent lap time on a road course or auto-x time. For the longest time I'd tell people 51.3 seconds (old old old auto-x time from a local event) and they'd look confused and walk away dumbfounded
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evildky
Classic Z Moderator
Offline
5571 posts
71 240ZT, 87 300ZXT, 91 300ZXTT, 93 SE-R
Louisville KY
1-31-2004
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the drag time just like the dyno is a comparative tool, I like knowing where my car was so see the rear result of whatever I do next, and it's nice to see the results someone else had as a benchmark to shoot for, in my case, I know the L28ET has hit 400 whp with my basic setup, I am not there yet but with 2 ailing cylinders it's not gonna happen till I freshen up the bottom end, and I'd like to see what my current ET is weight hp calculators show a mid 11 second pass, I like knowing my car weighs 2105lbs and makes 299.3 whp some people perfer to just add up the numbers printed on the parts box'sNSR, you even dyno'd that thing or just add up what is says on the parts box's? 
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (evildky) | 9:04 PM 3/15/2007 |
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I totally get you there man. When I'm adding crap, it seems like I'm at the dyno every day. With every major or minor upgrade, I always hit the dyno and generally hit the 1/4 mile strip as well, it's a good benchmark, but the one that matters to me is how fast I lap MAM and HPT. Granted, some of that is going to be driver mod, but I'd like to think that I'm already driving at about 90% or so.
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 7:16 AM 3/16/2007 |
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Freshly unwrapped on the pallet. Delivered late afternoon yesterday. The compression check that was included looks good, the graphs for each cylinder are fairly even. However, it's in bar. If I'm doing my conversion right, it looks like everything is between 181 and 188 psi. Either way, it'll get checked again to make sure. It's a fairly clean engine. The only real concern is the sealent on the valve covers. It appears that someone has been in there before and that makes me a little nervous. Time to get this thing on a stand!







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Zinister

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211 posts
1991 Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo and 1990 Nissan 300ZX N/A
albuquerque NM
11-8-2006
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| « Re: (Honad) | 8:56 AM 3/16/2007 |
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Nice project man! I wish I had the time to do that to my N/A or TT.
"Therein lies the beauty of dreams. With the passing of time, the obsessive pursuits of dreamers might be proven wrong or vindicated. But regardless of the final result, there is always an inherent magic in people who believe in an idea and follow their dream." 1991 Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo 2007 Honda CBR-600-RR - Stock... for now. 1990 Nissan 300ZX - Injen intake, one piece driveshaft. New engine! 2004 Honda CBR-600-RR - R.I.P.
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Zinister) | 9:22 PM 3/18/2007 |
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Coz order part 1 of 2 came in on Saturday. The other stuff should be right behind it, I'm hoping Monday. There are no excuses now. Things should start happening at a good pace.I took a few shots, most importantly the "spread" shot, which I'm very fond of. UR Crank Pully 
UR Crank Pully Reverse side 
New Oil pan (A must with any engine on a pallet) 
Nismo Tranny Mount (I replaced the one in my TT with an OEM... I wish I wouldn't have. This is _much_ stiffer) 
The notorious "Spread" shot. 
Man, I am a huge Z nerd.
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evildky
Classic Z Moderator
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5571 posts
71 240ZT, 87 300ZXT, 91 300ZXTT, 93 SE-R
Louisville KY
1-31-2004
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ouch I can feel your wallet getting lighter
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (evildky) | 6:53 AM 3/20/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by evildky » | | ouch I can feel your wallet getting lighter |
Thankfully, I keep all my money in coin format, so it's a huge weight reduction.Yeah, it's hurt a bit so far, but I'm hoping the first drive after startup will be worth it.
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clickdoc

Offline
158 posts
1990 300zx NA
lombard il
2-27-2007
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| « Re: (evildky) | 10:06 AM 3/21/2007 |
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absolutely great license tag -- very creative !
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (clickdoc) | 1:23 PM 3/21/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by clickdoc » | | absolutely great license tag -- very creative ! |
Thank you, I really thought so with the whole dual meaning. It's for those Z oriented and those who are not.Ok, on to business: The last bits came from Coz about an hour ago. Now, seriously, no excuses. Injector Harness
 Coil Pack Connectors
 EGR Delete

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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 7:54 AM 3/30/2007 |
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Some progress! All the timing bits, oil pan, pickup, water pump, exhaust manifolds, flywheel, etc, etc removed from the JDM engine. Ready for the new stuff to go in!

 Blah, found these ugly buggers, I need to get some new ones.
 EGR Removed

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NSR240sxe
D.K.

Online
6275 posts
'97 Kouki S14, '98 Sentra SE
Cleveland OH
11-22-2004
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damn...lots of time and work going into your project. good work!!
- Stephanie
 www.NorthShoreRacing.com
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hannibal

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8236 posts
1990 Integra
Atlanta GA
9-11-2002
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| « Re: (NSR240sxe) | 3:06 PM 3/30/2007 |
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Man, you are VERY thorough. Thats the way to build a car!Where'd you get the EGR delete kit?
How many parking spaces are a lot???
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tg

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658 posts
MTL qc
12-16-2006
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| « Re: (hannibal) | 4:46 PM 3/30/2007 |
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do you have the rest of the pictures hosted somewhere else?! i want more 
'91 jdm 2+0 fairlady
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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (hannibal) | 7:30 AM 4/1/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by hannibal » | | Man, you are VERY thorough. Thats the way to build a car! Where'd you get the EGR delete kit? |
Concept Z Performance. It's pretty basic really. Just a couple plates and some hose caps and zip ties and then a plug. You could probably machine it yourself, but 300 degree did a good job of making it pretty much perfect. I think I paid $45 shipped for it. Word to the wise, you do have to have an ECU flash or you will throw a CEL for emmisions when you delete the EGR. On with more! Accesories off the old engine, Alternator, A/C specifically. 
Pulled these off the old engine instead of buying new ones, though they are actually cheap at some 15 bucks, it was going to be two weeks before anyone could get some in. 
I'm still extremely nervous about the fact that it's not a factory button-up on this engine and someone has been in there fiddling around, but I'm just going to hope for the best, knowing that I've got a whole other engine in the garage that's eventually going to go in there anyway. This just needs to get us through a few seasons of autocross, it doesn't have to be perfect. Anyway, also this is a reference shot for post header installation. 
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S13ean

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137 posts
91 240sx SE, 91 300zx 2+2
Seaville NJ
11-3-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 5:45 PM 4/1/2007 |
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this thread is awesome, keep it comin!!but why would u get rid of your EGR, i mean it helps keep your combustion chamber temps down and what not. or are u just doin it for weight purposes
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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (S13ean) | 9:00 PM 4/1/2007 |
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| Quote, originally posted by S13ean » | | this thread is awesome, keep it comin!! but why would u get rid of your EGR, i mean it helps keep your combustion chamber temps down and what not. or are u just doin it for weight purposes |
A little bit of weight savings and the pain in the *** that is replacing faulty EGR. The small benefit that you get from having the system can be easily remedied by adding water injection, which is of course in the master plan.
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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 9:11 PM 4/2/2007 |
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Not a lot today, but progress is progress. Installed water pump, water pipes, back of the timing belt shroud, intake cam gears, idler pullies, timing belt tensioner, water pump and crank sprocket.


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Honad

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348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 6:46 PM 4/3/2007 |
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Installed new Oil Pick-Up tube... a whole 10 minutes of actual work today.  

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Honad

Offline
348 posts
1994 Nissan 300ZX TT and 1992 Nissan 300ZX Slicktop
Olathe KS
10-31-2005
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| « Re: (Honad) | 8:58 PM 4/11/2007 |
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These are all f'ing blurry, so |