Turbo or Supercharge???

Information on the naturally-aspirated KA24E and KA24DE engines.
SIL3NoZ
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:12 pm
Car: Cars, Music, Hockey, etc...

Post

I have 2 questions coming with this subject.

-What is the best thing to do on my 240SX 93 between Turbocharge or Supercharge? (I need POWER!!!)

-What is the difference between Turbo and Supercharge?

I live in a small town in Quebec, Louiseville, and I'm tired of all those conceited guys with their Acura and Honda. I wanna show them that my Nissan 240SX is the fastest out there!!!


SIL3NoZ
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:12 pm
Car: Cars, Music, Hockey, etc...

Post

Yes there are Supercharge for Nissan 240SX because I've read about it ... otherwise, I wouldn't ask such a question ;)

User avatar
Movingviolation240
Posts: 1862
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Car: Big boost and flying are 2 of the 3 things I can't turn down

Post

tell us who makes it and I'll buy 1000 of them since I'd be one of 3 people (me you and the company who builds them) who knew they existed.... we could make a killing......

drjohn
Posts: 417
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 3:27 pm

Post

Turbo uses wasted energy,exhaust gas to produce energy or pressure in the intake by pushing more mixture into the cylinders. The only draw brake is what is called turbo lag. The +'s are that it is there only when you demand the power. Super chargers can pack alot of power but it is there whenever the engine is running. This means no lag but poor fuel economy and it's nec. to build the engine stronger to handle the pressures from the blower. There are turbos that can add up to 1000 hp or more. A top fuel dragster can get 7000 hp or more from a supercharged 550 ci block and it takes about a 1000 hp to turn the blower and alot stronger block. You can get alot of bag for the buck with a turbo for alot less than a blower.

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

unstable hybrids makes a supercharger for the 240sx....or are in the final stages of development

User avatar
Movingviolation240
Posts: 1862
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Car: Big boost and flying are 2 of the 3 things I can't turn down

Post

unstable ditched that product a while ago, so there isn't one anywhere (and their kit was for the SOHC KA only)

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

really....thanks for the update

User avatar
TrueSlide
Posts: 2130
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:07 pm
Car: Stuff

Post

tell us who makes it and I'll buy 1000 of them since I'd be one of 3 people

What about the people reading?

ADAMHU
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 7:57 am
Contact:

Post

one of our SON240sx club members made a supercharger set up for his car..

SIL3NoZ
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:12 pm
Car: Cars, Music, Hockey, etc...

Post

Hey thx a lot Drjohn for the explanation!!!

So, should I go with a Turbo??? 'coz from what I've read about supercharge is that it's a waste of $... The only thing that matters to me is to have a powerful car.

Turbo gives a lot of torque but does the high speed increases too???

NateDogg
Posts: 811
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:20 pm

Post

Supercharge would give you more torque. Turbo gives a higher POWER band.

NateDogg
Posts: 811
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:20 pm

Post

Hey Adam,

I was wondering if you could elaborate a little about the SON240sx member who rigged up that supercharger. I am planning to do the same thing except make it better and more marketable.

User avatar
Movingviolation240
Posts: 1862
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Car: Big boost and flying are 2 of the 3 things I can't turn down

Post

turbo gives you more torque and HP, Jay's making over 400ftlbs at the wheels and 390hp on his turbo KA. All a turbo dose is magnify your factory powrband.

And as for superchargers having 'no lag' that's BS because the laggiest car I've ever been in in a Jackson Racing Miatia. You have to really spin that blower to get it to feel like it's moving any air.

I recomend turbo all the way, superchargers are a waste of money IMHO, and if you want quick boost response get a GTspec ballbearing turbo.

later,

Paul

User avatar
C-Kwik
Moderator
Posts: 9086
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX

Post

A turbo in that of itself does not produce more torque than a supercharger or vice versa. There are way too many other factors to consider. What you have to consider is at what RPM are you making how much boost with how much efficiency less how much resistance? And even then, you have to plot that against all points of the engine's rev range in order to figure out which one actually makes more torque.

As far as torque vs HP, this is a poor comparison to make. HP is really what you want to focus on. It's derived from torque and is a more realistic way to determine the potential output of the motor. Consider this: a motor that makes 150 lb-ft of torque at 3000 RPM is making the same amount of of HP as a motor that makes 75 lb-ft of torque at 6000 RPM. While it is obvious given the same gear ratio, the 150 lb-ft at 3000 RPM motor is accelerating the car faster at 3000 RPM than the 75 lb-ft at 6000 RPM motor does at 6000 RPM, but...if you cut the gearing in half, both cars would have the same torque at the wheels and therefore both would accelerate at the same rate at the corresponding RPM's. This is the same reason cars with significantly lower torque ratings can outpower our KA powered 240s. They use RPM and well matched gearing to compensate. It really comes down to how much torque is put on the ground. This is the same reason F1 cars can make so much power. They rev ultra high and gear really low which makes for a very high torque rating at the wheels.

As far as which one is better, turbo's if sized right has much more potential to make more power without as much drain. But certain turbo sizes can make less power than many superchargers. It just all depends.

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

you are right about the torque vs hp and turbo vs supercharger....but the actual devices are different in the way they are propelled. supercharger belt driven or throttle position. turbo exhaust gases or cam lift, turbo design, exhaust manifold. so if you are crusing at 3000rpm and you drop the hammer on a supercharged engine its gone. the torque delivery spikes with the usable rpm range. drop the hammer on a turbo and wait for spool up and then the car is goes but also watch the rpm climb and the relevant power delivery at a given engine speed. so in real world street drivin superchargers deliver instant power once the throttle is depressed. given that they lose a lot on the top end. exhaust gases are in abundance and can help the turbo to spool and use energy that would otherwise be wasted. but you have to have the engine at the right speed. i love turbos.....but for street driving and real time driving, simplicity, and reliability..supercharger all the way

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

"torque wins races, horsepower sells cars" Steve Saleen

Nismo241
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:51 am
Contact:

Post

george wrote:"torque wins races, horsepower sells cars" Steve Saleen


Not exactly, look at all the little honda's that run 11's and 10's all motor, their torque numbers are a joke, we dyno'd one that put down 261 fwhp and 184 ft. lbs it still ran an 11.4. That statemnet can hold true but not always. Look at the KA24. That motor has more tq than hp but it still falls on it's face anything after 6K. Now how often on the race track are you under at least 5K?

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

those little hondas run 11's on a fully stripped car..i mean stripped nothing on the car. independant engine managment, race gas, slicks, drag shocks front and rear, and launching the car at 8000rpm and a pro driver, not to mention thousands of dollars invested in an engine who's cleareances are within micro meters of colliding. a mustang 5.0 or a camaro z28 with a thousand dollars in mods will run an 11 IN STREET FORM, blasting the a/c and with street tires on pump gas. Reason....torque wins races, horsepower sells cars....Steve saleen. oh and torque gets you to that 5000rpm on the track.

S13Drifter
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 3:19 pm
Contact:

Post

george wrote:those little hondas run 11's on a fully stripped car..i mean stripped nothing on the car. independant engine managment, race gas, slicks, drag shocks front and rear, and launching the car at 8000rpm and a pro driver, not to mention thousands of dollars invested in an engine who's cleareances are within micro meters of colliding. a mustang 5.0 or a camaro z28 with a thousand dollars in mods will run an 11 IN STREET FORM, blasting the a/c and with street tires on pump gas. Reason....torque wins races, horsepower sells cars....Steve saleen. oh and torque gets you to that 5000rpm on the track.


The only problem with that is, I would trust the honda engine over any ford or chevy. Honda, toyota, and nissan engines last much longer than any 5.0 or z28. I would rather have a small reliable engine than some huge unreliable one. BTW i say this after my frined with a z28 droped 2k for a new auto tranny installed. And he was spent more than 4k total in repairs.

Nismo241
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:51 am
Contact:

Post

george wrote:those little hondas run 11's on a fully stripped car..i mean stripped nothing on the car. independant engine managment, race gas, slicks, drag shocks front and rear, and launching the car at 8000rpm and a pro driver, not to mention thousands of dollars invested in an engine who's cleareances are within micro meters of colliding. a mustang 5.0 or a camaro z28 with a thousand dollars in mods will run an 11 IN STREET FORM, blasting the a/c and with street tires on pump gas. Reason....torque wins races, horsepower sells cars....Steve saleen. oh and torque gets you to that 5000rpm on the track.


That just goes to show that there is a replacement for displacement. The Honda that I'm talking about was built by a 17 year old, and driven by the same "kids" that built it, nothing pro. That same shop built a civic that in street form, on pump gas and street tires hit a 12.1@121mph, full interior, just coilover suspension. Also, on the track it isn't a drag race, the torque doesn't get you 5K, downshifting does.

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

a camaro ss will run in the 13's in stock form. add a shot off nitrous and you are in the 11's easy. add a shot of nitrous to a civic and you are in the 16's. even civics with $4000 turbo kits run high 14's. at carlsbad raceway turbo civics and crxs run 14's at best...12's? in your dreams. on the drag strip domestics dominate. 12's on street tires and full interior and pump gas.....no way no how in your dreams.

S13Drifter
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 3:19 pm
Contact:

Post

On a non-drag race, Having a lot of torque is very good. In a track or road race, having a lot of torque is what is going to make you win. In a drag race hp is more important. I would like to have a lot of torque and the 240sx does pretty good. And i think my car is very reliable too.

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

i agree completely

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

but all this bull about street civics running 12's that complete bull...a civic wont run a 12 without MAJOR mods to which if you did to a domestic you would be running in the 9's. but how do you feel when you down shift and the engine doent produce enough torque to break traction. compounded with the front wheel drive on a civic and absolutely no traction....12's on street tires, no slicks? hell no. you should go to the track to see for yourself

User avatar
C-Kwik
Moderator
Posts: 9086
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX

Post

Torque at the engine isn't what wins races. It's torque at the wheels. And the reason Honda's can make so much HP with such low peak torque figures is because they can rev higher. The ability to rev higher allows you to lower the gear ratio and through the torque multiplication, a higher toque level at the wheels is not hard to acheive. That is why HP is more indicative of how fast a car is than the torque figures. Look at an F1 car for example. In order to make the HP they do with such a small motor, they rev the piss out of it. You don't need a whole lot of torque to pull off a lot of HP when you are at 18,000 RPM.

Nismo241
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:51 am
Contact:

Post

george wrote:but all this bull about street civics running 12's that complete bull...a civic wont run a 12 without MAJOR mods to which if you did to a domestic you would be running in the 9's. but how do you feel when you down shift and the engine doent produce enough torque to break traction. compounded with the front wheel drive on a civic and absolutely no traction....12's on street tires, no slicks? hell no. you should go to the track to see for yourself


Hell yes, I watched it, you talk of these civics running high 14's with 4K turbo kits, yep thats what happens when you turbo a D15. Do a 2K motor swap with a B16, peice together a 2k turbo kit and you are running low 13's. That civic that ran 12's on street tires, just put down 351 fwhp at only 14lbs boost. Go to http://www.groundzeromotorsports.com/ Now look at their members cars. All of those are street cars and run high 12's and better. The yellow civic hatch put down 506 fwhp. You talk of "MAJOR" mods. Not really, spencers car ran a 12.5 with just a built B16, on the stock bore and stroke.

george
Posts: 212
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 8:58 am
Car: autocross

Post

14psi is equal to about to about 140bhp, where you got 351 whell horsepwoer running 14psi and stock internals is beyond me. 351 to the wheels is over 400 at the crank...on stock internals running 14psi. dont believe all that you read

Blueorb
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:18 pm

Post

I wouldn't mind going with the supercharger, but yeah they don't make one that is marketable. You could do one if you fabricated the parts yourself. Super chargers are good for rear wheel drive cars because of the weight transfer and no lag... superchargers are not ideal for fwd cars. Also the charger has a limit to the psi i think 8-9...

Turbo has unlimited potential = turbo addiction cause you always want more. Plus they makes kits so installs are a bit more easier, but if you are going to spend 3g's for a stage 1 turbo your going to want to go even more, then you have to strengthen your engine and so on. Plus you have reliability..... I would say save yourself the hassle of that and just buy a engine that was designed for turbos SR20DET engine... it is bomb proof and made to be reliable. 250HP for the s15 silvia jdm 2001 stock model. you can get the engine with all the parts and the transmission also for like 4 g's.. the choice is yours.. good luck

Nismo241
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:51 am
Contact:

Post

george wrote:14psi is equal to about to about 140bhp, where you got 351 whell horsepwoer running 14psi and stock internals is beyond me. 351 to the wheels is over 400 at the crank...on stock internals running 14psi. dont believe all that you read


The thing is...I didn't read it, I was there helping with the dyno. You can't say that 14psi=140hp, that number would change from turbo to turbo and motor to motor, as well as other mods. The bottom end on that civic isn't stock either. But I wouldn't consider a built bottom end major mods.

BinaryVertigo
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:28 pm

Post

a built bottom end isn't a major mod? i dunno about that bro


Return to “KA24E / KA24DE Forum”