Turbo or Supercharge???

Post by **Nismo241** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

Nope...I would consider a bored and stroked motor major. Building a bottom end is pretty common. Maybe a few years ago I would say different, but at least 1 out of 3 imports in the scene has a built motor...more or less.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

do you have a built bottem end? 90% of the turboed civics acuras are running no more than 7psi on stock internals...if built internals isnt major i dont know what is.

Post by **Nismo241** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

george wrote:do you have a built bottem end? 90% of the turboed civics acuras are running no more than 7psi on stock internals...if built internals isnt major i dont know what is.

I've already told you what "major" is. You can look at it whatever way you want, but I still don't consider a built bottom end major...and my bottom end isn't built as of yet. I'm getting a blown up DOHC this weekend, and building it. 90% of the turbo civics around here we know about and have built bottom ends running no less than 14lbs boost. You really can't talk until you know about most all of the cars around, not just guess, we've dyno'd most if not all of the civics and integras and know the specifics on all of them.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

i dont know where you live but in san diego at the carlsbad raceway quarter mile track i have been going there for years i have never seen a civic or integra run 12's. sorry to tell you front wheel drive and a dinky 1.8 liter engine wont get you into the 12's on a street car with full interior. and this is deduced from watching these civics and integras embarass themselves at the tracks.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

run turbo nitrous all you want, if its a street car it will be too heavy and you cant consider those civics with wheelie bars, slicks and engines with major mods streetable.

Post by **APEXi240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

george wrote:i dont know where you live but in san diego at the carlsbad raceway quarter mile track i have been going there for years i have never seen a civic or integra run 12's. sorry to tell you front wheel drive and a dinky 1.8 liter engine wont get you into the 12's on a street car with full interior. and this is deduced from watching these civics and integras embarass themselves at the tracks.

All I have to say is HAHAHAHAHA. In Jersey there are MANY MANY fast Hondas. Around the block from me there is a Civic hatchback that runs 12.5 all-motor, GSR, pump gas...the back half however is stripped. No stand alone, oh yeah and since running 12.5 the guy has installed ITBs.

A friend of mine owns a built LS/Vtec in a hatchback. It ran 12.1. Full interior, pump gas, untuned. He hasn't been back to the track yet, but has tuned his car, and recently installed Hondata. I've watched this car kill Mustangs, Turbo built VR-6s, Camaros...then happily taking their money from them....After he was done racing the VR-6 collecting his money, the car flat out stalled because he had no stand-alone...

There is also a fully built GS-R coupe running a high compression turbo setup...12.6

These three cars are all currently being daily driven.

There are MANY 1.8 liter engines going very fast. It isn't cheap, and I by no means like Hondas, but there are a lot of fast ones at the track and in my area.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

now i see what you mean...i thought you were talking about the quater mile.....you meant the 1/8mile.....cuz thats the only 12 a ls/vtec or turbo civic is gonna run

Post by **APEXi240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

UHHH, no, thats 1/4 mile, all motor. Those are all quater mile.

Post by **big jon's 240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

if you have the time/money/ingenuity, you can make anything fast. yes even a honda with full interior and a turbo can do it(12's?...not to hard). its all a matter of how good you (or the person who built your car) is with a wrench(ive seen a pinto run 8's, no b.s.). but really who cares how fast so and so's honda is, its still a honda. .a civic is meant to be a grocery getter, not a race car. honda's sports car was the prelude, and now the s2000. back to the topic of this post, a turbo is far superior as far as "potential" goes. maybe not the most streetable choice in some instances. but streetability with a turbo really boils down to turbo size vs. engine displacment. the only reason you dont see top fuel and funny cars running huge turbos as opposed to huge blowers, is because the nhra says they are illegal.(the blower wouldnt stand a chance) and on one last note,nissan 240=meant to be turboed!

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

big jon you are right. but what people on this forum fail to see is that 12's in a civic is ridiculously hard. i have NEVER seen a civic run a 12 never. and these people are talking about civics running 14psi and full interior running a 12. no way it cant be done i mean the damn things run 17sec quarters. a turbo is not gonna make a 17sec internally stock engine into a 12's first class sports car. maybe running 25 psi on built internals, stripped interior and drag slicks. MAYBE this my friend runs 12's and my friend runs 1's seat of your pants estimation doesnt cut it. a supra running a t78 last weekend on race gas running 22psi barely ran a 12 at carlsbad...on drag tires. civic running a 12 ....thats funny

Post by **BinaryVertigo** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

we all have to consider the fact that a honda can be made very light

also the fact that ff's pull stronger once it is in motion just because all the weight is transfered towards the back and there is less load on the drivetrain whereas fr's during acceleration the weight is shifted towards the back forcing more load on the drivetrain...yes that does give fr's better traction but at the cost of power delivery.

12's 11's 10's 9's are just drag numbersif you want to build a mean drag machine buy a domestic for a pretty penny...build the motor for another pretty penny and go have fun running 10's all day

also drive it around town and get 2 miles to the gallonthen get pulled over b/c in no way in hell that $#!T is street legal

-demitri

Post by **AkaiRPS13** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

Its all about weight. and ratios. see a 100 hp civic weighs half as much as a 200 hp camaro(theretically speaking) you give ten hp to the civic and ten hp to the camaro and the civic will have twice the reduction in 1/4m time(again, theretically speaking). the lightest eg civic hatch model(the VX i believe) with an intake and exhst and header runs like, 14s on street tires with a crappy (stock) engine and full interior. not to mention FWD has a lower ratio of driveline power loss. Dont get me wrong i very much prefer RWD but Id rather have a Civic than a Camaro. My friend has a 91 camaro rs with 100k miles and he spent over 1500 dollars on cluch and transmission problems. and thats half the value of the car! much rather spend my money making my grocery getter faster than pouring it into a black hole of maintenence.

Post by **AkaiRPS13** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

Also about the guy that said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races". He is a grade A moron who does not know what he is talking about. http://www.datsuns.com/torquehp.htm thisll save me a lot of typing. and now you see that in fact it is the other way around. tourque is fun, horsepower is fast.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

yeah steve saleen is a grade A moron thats right he is only one of the most pretigeous engine and chassis designers of all time....but then again what does he know right? bottem line civic slow no matter what you do to it.

Post by **Nismo241** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

george wrote:big jon you are right. but what people on this forum fail to see is that 12's in a civic is ridiculously hard. i have NEVER seen a civic run a 12 never. and these people are talking about civics running 14psi and full interior running a 12. no way it cant be done i mean the damn things run 17sec quarters. a turbo is not gonna make a 17sec internally stock engine into a 12's first class sports car. maybe running 25 psi on built internals, stripped interior and drag slicks. MAYBE this my friend runs 12's and my friend runs 1's seat of your pants estimation doesnt cut it. a supra running a t78 last weekend on race gas running 22psi barely ran a 12 at carlsbad...on drag tires. civic running a 12 ....thats funny

You keep seeing these civics running 14's with turbos and 16's with all these mods, you fail to realize that they have nothing but a weak *** single cam 1.5L. Drop a bone stock GSR into a 93 hatch and I can gurentee low 14's high 13's. Do the same with an H22 in the same car with bolt-ons and run high 12's. We've tuned them and watched them run. 12's is fast, but not that fast. Come up to Oregon for the import challenge, and I can guarentee that you will see at least 10 civics running 12's, most of them being all motor. Did you see nothing at Groud Zero's website?

Post by **APEXi240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

Yup, Jersey is the same way...go to E-town or ATCO and watch all motor civics beat corevettes, mustangs, supra, ect.

The LS/Vtec all motor hatch I talked about dynoed, 335hp to the wheels...and it runs very low 12s...its all about weight. His car is "heavy" and is only 2300lbs.

Saying no Honda is fast is just stupid...If you look at it that way then there are NO fast 240s either...

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

ls/vtec kicking out 335wheel horsepower...to the wheels? come on guys !!!!

Post by **APEXi240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

fully built running a stand alone system...i've seen the dyno sheet, i've seen him at the track, i've seen him at the street races...i used to be real good friends with him, and work with him...you act like its impossible...you need to open up your eyes.

Post by **Nismo241** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

george wrote:ls/vtec kicking out 335wheel horsepower...to the wheels? come on guys !!!!

Unless it's turbo, I agree with george on this one. My friends LS/Vtec put down 192fwhp and ran a 12.6. It only takes 260fwhp to pilot a 1600lbs civic into the 10's. Even with street tires that "355"hp civic weighing 2300lbs should still run in the low 11's. Thats just too unreal.

Post by **95_240sx** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

No civics running 12's?

I went to the Summit Sport Compact Drag Racing Series thing at the dragstrip, and I hate to tell you, but I have a VIDEO of the Venom civic running in the 8-9sec range, the Ecko civic running in the 10's i believe, and a local civic running 11's.

The thing about the venom civic however, when he gets up to the line, and he hits his launch rev-limiter, and while its winding up, not only does it sound like a small jet engine (no exaggeration) but it takes at least 2 seconds to get the turbo spinning and the engine up to the RPM.

The cars and the parts are out there, you just have to look around. Yes, 95% of civics are in the 14-24sec range, but that last 5% can kick some ***.

Rick

BTW, Nissans are better than Honduhs no matter what anyone says. Honduhs are WWD (Wrong Wheel Drive)

Post by **APEXi240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

The kid can't really use street tires...he doesn't get good traction...There was an event at E-town where you could only use street tires, and he could only pull like 12.4s...breaking the wheels into 4th gear...he packed up early and went home.

The kid was either sqeezing to get that number...which I most likely think he was...

But he also may have the engine stroked, but he won't tell anyone if it is or not. Either way I saw the dyno sheet.

Post by **Dano** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

u know wats cool, Mahdavi Motorsports NSX-powered crx.

Post by **I 8 v8** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

hey apexi240, where are you in Jersey?George, you have go out and expand your knowledge. Honda is a very reliable car and can be very fast if you tune it right. My friend have a 92 hatch with gsr motor and Type R internal, he ran 12.8 on that thing. Yes the car doesnt have alot of HP but that thing only weight 2000lbs. and this is a street car. I have seen alot of street civics all motor and turbos running 13's, 12's and even 11's. Yeh, a civic with turbo kit run 14's but that's SOHC. but a T3 turbo from the junk yard and a b16a can run low 13's or high 12's. Its only depend on who's working on the car. Most of the time bolt on turbo kits wont satisfy you as a custom built turbo that built by yourself. My buddy currently work on his custom manifold for his t4 turbo and it garanteed to run 11's or even 10's.I love Nissan but also think that Hondas are nice too, but just alot kid did stupid things to it that makes people hates hondas.

Post by **big jon's 240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

It's a shame to see what people can do to the english language.

Post by **doctorj240** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

lmao... I agree wholeheartedly.

Post by **numatik** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

Don't get me wrong.... I'm no honda fan. But you can't argue with the numbers some of these civics are putting up. If you want to go beat exotics without spending a fortune, I think a civic with a prelude/gsr motor and weight reduction is the way to go.

Post by **george** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

sorry guys i have to disagree with you all concerning the power output of all motor civics and even the low compression turbo versions. from what i have seen at the drag strip and at autocross events and from my profession civics are not as capable as you all imagine. just my two cents....oh and a civic with a gsr motor runs 200 at the crank even with type R internals? that wont get you into the 12's sorry I 8 V8 that wont happen.

Post by **MarkEmark** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

So what it all comes down to (what I'm seeing from the posts) is that the civics are just LIGHTER than every other car out there, and that's their main advantage---I still think they look like ****ty little bubble cans that have no real style, or definition to their physique, a car that every kid and his uncle and friend owns. Conformity at its best. A civic is a civic no matter what you do to it. it will still look like ****, and still be a HONDUH that 50% of the population owns... i'd much rather have a car that can TURN as well as go fast straight line than just a drag racer---that, is where the civic bites the dust, once the road starts to turn, and that is where the 240 will show the civic abot what it means to be RWD.

Post by **Nismo241** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

george wrote:sorry guys i have to disagree with you all concerning the power output of all motor civics and even the low compression turbo versions. from what i have seen at the drag strip and at autocross events and from my profession civics are not as capable as you all imagine. just my two cents....oh and a civic with a gsr motor runs 200 at the crank even with type R internals? that wont get you into the 12's sorry I 8 V8 that wont happen.

First off, civics can and do put down big power, 506fwhp@24lbs of boost is big power. That particular civic is daily driven and ran 11.8@118@ 18lbs of boost in full street trim with slicks. I don't imagine they are capable I know they are. A GSR has 180 at the crank, with ITR internals it will have 200 at the crank.

Post by **C-Kwik** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:42 pm

There seems to be a lot of skeptics on this board about what motors can do. The reality is that given a large budget, any motor can be made to have lots of power. Honda's have the advantage that the research is already out there, and is continuing to grow by leaps and bounds. If a 240 HP 2.0L NA street motor can be built, 300+ HP 2.2L NA race motors would not be out of the question(BTCC Honda Accords from years ago were making just over 300 HP out of a 2.0L motor that was destroked from 2.2L). I saw a 12 second all motor civic more than 5 years ago. It was making only a little over 200 HP, but the car was shaved of weight to the absolute bare minimum. Even over the last 5 years, there has been substantial increases of HP found in the performance aftermarket for Hondas. I'm sure we will continue to see more 12 second all-motor Hondas pop up all over the place. Not to mention that at the forfront of all this, there are the ones pushing 11's and 10's. Years ago, noone thought 9's could be obtained by the Turbo Hondas. Now they are belting them out. If the Hondas can't do all this, then I might as well give up on the 240sx and get myself a V-8.

Turbo or Supercharge???

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