kerrton wrote:I'm a little worried about the lack of new innovative engine like most competitors i.e. small displacement turbo with direct injection providing lots of power and superior efficiency.
I wonder how the 2013 Pathfinder will compete with the likes of the Explorer 2.0 turbo, upcoming Santa Fe with 2.0 turbo

How A Turbo Works:
To those who dont know how Turbocharger's (turbo for short) work, it can be this mystical thing. But in reality its actually pretty easy. A turbo gets its power from the hot exhaust gasses that immediately exit the engine and into the exhaust manifold. Since hot gasses expand rapidly, once they are forced into the hot-side of the turbo and into a turbine, That turbine can often spin 200,000rpm or more. once it spins that turbine, the exhaust gasses job is done and its routed to the exhaust system. On that same turbine shaft just on the other side is a compressor wheel. That side sucks in fresh air and forces it into the engine.(picture below)



Now imagine how hot the exhaust gasses are, and now they are compressed and shoved into a turbo that has a spinning shaft that turns at 200,000rpm just like a jet engine. That shaft needs to stay spinning in order to produce power. That shaft also has to be super straight so the fins on the the turbine/compressor dont wobble and tilt and chip the fins. So how do you keep everything working smooth and right? OIL. Oil is fed into the turbo to keep everything working smooth, quiet, and to cool the turbo.

(QUIZ: what happens to the oil supply once you turn the engine off? you cut the oil supply - keep this in mind).

Have any of you ever put oil on a frying pan and allowed it to get hot? The oil turned black right? Right... it got burned, and turned black, and started to thicken = aka sludge.
So what do you think happens to a super hot turbo after a spirited run on the highway, a couple more town streets, and the driveway = and then the driver just simply turns the car off? you cut the oil supply off! You also begin to build up sludge, you start over heating the bearings that keep that turbine shaft straight and not wobbling. now since the coolant isnt circulating nor the oil - the heat is beginning to rise everywhere including the turbo. Even though you turned the engine off - the temps get hotter(like in every engine). Now imagine your over due on an oil change by say a few hundred miles, or your using conventional oil = that oil will build sludge very quickly. SO HOW DO YOU PREVENT OVER HEATING & COOKING THE BEARINGS ON A TURBO? EXTREMELY METICULOUS OIL CHANGES (change your oil every 2,000-3000miles depending on season/location). USING THE FINEST IN SYNTHETIC, AND KEEPING AN EYE ON ENGINE TEMPS, AND MAKING SURE TO NEVER SHUT OFF A HOT ENGINE. ALWAYS ALLOW IT TO IDLE FOR A FEW MINUTES BEFORE SHUTTING IT OFF. (they make electronic turbo timers just for this purpose) But manufacturers wont install this feature as it wastes gas, makes pollution, and ruins the vehicles overall MPG status.


So finally we got to the part where i rant and not rave about everyday cars having turbo's.
Am i for it? ehh - not really. Am i totally against it? Ehhh not really as well. What i want to stress is that turbo's making amazing brute power. They are great tools to make power without having to increase in fuel consumption in the actual combustion process. They literally save gas. But what they save, they can quickly over-shadow in cost ie; frequent expensive oil changes, higher octane fuel(to prevent pre-detonation), and even repair.

As stated above, they require oil. fresh, cool, synthetic, oil. Oil that is slightly contaminated will burn off those contaminants on the bearings of the turbo and build sludge. If you cheap out and use conventional oil, or dont bring the car in right on time, your looking at very expensive repairs. IN MY LOCAL JUNK-YARD I HAVE TONS OF PERFECT BODY VOLKSWAGEN JETTA 1.8T WITH ENGINES TORN APART. The reason being is because girls owned the cars, didnt maintain the car or couldnt afford the very frequent oil changes, and the turbo's died. Mommy/Daddy gave it to the mechanic, and the end cost would total the car.

Air filter must be replaced every 10,000 miles or sooner. Never allow it to get dirty, or clogged as this will reduce the air flow rate and hurt your turbo by over heating.

Winter procedures are just as strict: The ideal temperature for oil to flow and provide proper lubrication is between 180-210* F, and on a cold day it can take an engine up to 20 minutes to reach this oil temperature. Once you have let your car warm up for a few minutes, it is best to drive your car easy for at least the next 5 minutes, avoiding giving the car more than 1/4 throttle. This will give the oil time to properly warm up and do its job of lubricating all the vital areas of your turbocharger.

I dont think that the common person should get involved with a turbo. They can be a HUGE headache and very expensive to repair/replace. The cost of expensive frequent oil changes quickly takes away from the better fuel economy.
They also have a lot of plumbing that uses rubber hoses that carry high volumes of air. Hoses as we know it- require changing. Add that to the list of maintenance, and i think you have the reason why Nissan doesnt delve into that field just yet.


I truly LOVE turbo's as a nissan gear head, but for the common person = the savings just are not there.
Its a headache, its expensive, its like caring for a special needs pet. You just always have to be on top of the maintenance to a T. How many people now a days, from moms to busy dads have the time, desire, or the knowledge of meticulous auto care? People are not the same anymore; where dads took their sons out every sunday to check the cars. Nor can the common person afford the care that's already needed on naturally aspirated engines- let alone a finicky turbo engines. I SEE SERIOUS PROBLEMS IN THE NEAR FUTURE FOR TURBO EXPLORER OWNERS AND ANYONE ELSE WHO BUYS A NEW MODERN CAR WITH A TURBO.
PS: "EcoBoost" - is nothing new. ford didnt invent this new innovative technology. its nothing more than a turbo. its been around for ages. They simply named theirs to fit todays love for the terms "green" "Eco-friendly" & "eco". dont fall into their gimmick trap.

Thanks for the good write-up on turbos. The Rogue isn't available with a small turbo yet, but that may change with the redesigned model next year. The current Juke is the latest Nissan turbo, I've never driven one but it's gotten pretty good reviews as a fun, sporty all-wheel-drive crossover? (still not sure exactly what to call it).

After reading a lot about the latest generation of turbos, in particular the Ford Ecoboost which has recieved a ton of press the past couple years, I think engineers have solved some or all of the problems you described regarding traditional turbos. One, they no longer require premium fuel, and they no longer run the risk of overheating and destroying bearings due to lack of cooling time i.e. you don't have to let them idle before shutting off the car - lubricant will continue to circulate even after you've shut the car off and walked into Starbucks to meet your buddies for a latte. Also, I looked at the oil change schedule for the 2.0 Ecoboost on the Explorer and it states very long change intervals of 8000 km, and specifies both conventional and synthetic - no strict requirement for synthetic.

I'm not expert, there is a ton of promotional tech info on the Ecoboost line of engines as Ford as battled against perceptions as you've described above. They claim that all of these are OLD misconceptions, and the current generation of turbos with direct injection have advanced and are as worry-free as any normally aspirated engine. Search for "Ecoboost torture test" for some really cool stuff. Now direct injection, that's another technology all together, it mimics the injection of a diesel, and early implementations suffered set backs due to intake fouling with carbon deposits among other things. Apparently this too has been overcome, by Kia/Hyundai in particular who seem to have mastered this design parameter before most others.

sadly, there is no way to supply oil to the turbo once the engine is off. (unless it has a battery draining electric pump capable of pumping hot fluids - which i doubt.) so cooking a turbo is going to happen. cooling it during operation is great, but its once the car is turned off - thats when the damage starts.

in a nutshell, despite the fancy "Eco-Boost" label, it's just a turbocharged small-displacement motor, something which could have been installed in these sorts of vehicles a long time ago and give the same benefits. Problem was - US consumers didn't want 'em.
its my prediction that many-many owners will be dumping these cars sooner than later simply because installing a small 2.0L + turbo into a 4000lb car is going to absolutely fry that turbo out. that turbo will be working way to often under its max psi and stressing out the engine internals way to much - plus operating under much higher temps. given the 5yr/60k one would have to be a fool to buy that engine option. its just not something i agree with.

(now dont take my rant in regards to things like TDI from Volkswagen, the diesel engines work slower, and so then the turbo's work slower and easier. plus the blocks, heads, and everything is designed for more strength due to the compression ratio being totally different. )

you do realize that most all of todays turbos are not just oil cooled but also water cooled thus reducing their operating temperatures.

c_bova wrote:you do realize that most all of todays turbos are not just oil cooled but also water cooled thus reducing their operating temperatures.

yes im very well aware of all the cooling methods while the engine is on. some cars even have water spritzers that spray water over the intercooler.

but the concern with turbo engines is not when its on - ITS WHEN ITS OFF is when the damage begins to happen. as soon as you turn off any engine, the temps rise. that rise in temps and oil not circulating is what cooks the bearings, seals, etc. there is no other part in any typical car engine that rotates above 20,000rpm - LET ALONE 200,000RPM. the heat generated in turbo's is absolutely phenomenal. without proper meticulous care, and strict regimented service, turbo's die. just look at the gasoline 1.8T jetta's sitting in the junk yards all across the country.

You can still kill water-cooled turbos by turning the engine off while the turbo's still hot. especially with oil being changed at longer intervals like Ford states. the older the oil is, the less endurance it has.

it will be very interesting in 5-8years to see.

meh, I wouldn't be worried about it. I'm sure there will be some failures, but this is with any part. There are enough cars with turbos now a days that they all just don't fail. All this stuff gets torture tested pretty much and they know the limits. even oils today last longer than people think. I think ecoboost engines will be fine as well as any other manufacturer making the leap to direct injection - turbo motors. The biggest problem they will have with these new DI motors is not the turbos, but the fact that there isn't fuel on the intake valves to help keep them clean.

I know this as the mazdaspeed6 that I had previously owned was a direct injected turbo engine.

but you are right, turbo cars do require good maintenance, but hoping in todays age they take that into consideration since I'm sure a lot of these people buying them are the soccer mom type that don't pay attention to that stuff.

The biggest problem they will have with these new DI motors is not the turbos, but the fact that there isn't fuel on the intake valves to help keep them clean.

your 100% right. the intake valves will become filthy by not being cleaned by the gas, alone with the egr system recirculating some of the spent exhaust back into the system which you know is oily as all heck.
and the fact that piezo injectors need more frequent replacement than the ones hidden behind the intake valve due to becoming clogged due to being exposed directly to the combustion chamber. i have sold plenty of these items for Mercedes diesel engines. premature failure, premature clogging is VERY common in DI engines. but with diesels at least the heat is so high, that it helps alleviate the frequency of changing these. in gasoline engines this could become a problem.

but you are right, turbo cars do require good maintenance. hoping in todays age they take that into consideration since I'm sure a lot of these people buying them are the soccer mom type that don't pay attention to that stuff.

what i see here is more typical American auto makers jumping onto a bandwagon without actually testing their equipment in real wold scenario's and doing ample studies on 1 car, and then taking the refined product and using it across the board. (can you imagine if nissan took the first ever CVT and dropped it into all of its cars? the amount of failures across the board would be crazy enough to cause nissan to maybe die out from loss of sales)
Im glad that you agree that turbo's are very picky and require an extremely watchful eye. and the average person doesnt know, and will destroy these engines by over-extending the oil change frequency that would ordinarily be OK in any naturally aspirated engine.
what bothers me the most, is that they installed a small engine with a turbo INTO SUCH A HEAVY CAR. that means a great deal of the power will be constantly coming from the turbo. Further more, they timed the turbo to come into play at 1,500rpm!
if they at least had a nice torquey 3.5L V6 with the turbo, the turbo could be timed to come into play at a higher RPM which leaves it working a lot less, thus increasing its life-span under everyday driving. i know of a few cars that are bi-turbo, and one turbo runs at low rpms, and the next comes into play at higher rpms. if Ford wanted to create a low maintenance system the could have times the turbo to come into play at 4,000rpm. but then they wouldnt be FORD(Fix Or Repair Damage)

I think they are placing a great deal of stress on that engine, turbo, and gaskets to take the pressures of every day commutes, driving, and temp's. I really dont see a bright future for Ford with this configuration. I think there will be a lot of negative publicity in the coming 5-8years since their warranty is so short.

oh I know turbo motors are stingy and high boost at low torque is not good. there have been enough grenaded speed3/speed6 engines from the sheer fact that people load them up down low. to me a turbo engine should not really be in high boost below 3k rpms, at least that was the sweet spot on the mazdaspeeds. I just hope with time they iron all this out and put in the fail safes to keep your everday joe schmoe who may not take precautions like you and I from blowing up their motor, but then again maybe if they time it right it will happen after warranty thus making them more money.

c_bova wrote:oh I know turbo motors are stingy and high boost at low torque is not good. there have been enough grenaded speed3/speed6 engines from the sheer fact that people load them up down low. to me a turbo engine should not really be in high boost below 3k rpms, at least that was the sweet spot on the mazdaspeeds. I just hope with time they iron all this out and put in the fail safes to keep your everday joe schmoe who may not take precautions like you and I from blowing up their motor, but then again maybe if they time it right it will happen after warranty thus making them more money.

very well said. turbo's need to be utilized as less often as possible, and not relied upon constantly for daily driving at low rpms - especially in heavy cars like the f150 or the explorer. thats just going to expose it to seriously premature age/wear/tear/damage.

ImStricken wrote:sadly, there is no way to supply oil to the turbo once the engine is off. (unless it has a battery draining electric pump capable of pumping hot fluids - which i doubt.)

Sure there is. It's called an accumulator. Race cars use them to prevent oil starvation. Wouldn't be a huge deal to put them in production vehicles, but the reason OEMs don't do it is that it's pretty much solving a problem that doesn't really exist anymore.

The temperature of the center section of the turbo does not fall significantly in the 10 minutes or so after shutoff whether the engine is kept running or not. I've owned several turbo cars over the past 10 years and I removed the turbo timers from the cars that had them because they do nothing more than offer the owner a placebo effect. Turbos no longer die from coking. Oil technology- even conventional oil- is light years ahead of where it was in the 80's when turbos first started making regular appearances on production cars. Synthetic oil is almost impossible to coke in the CHRA.

The VW/Audi turbo example is a bit dodgy, since VAG cars (and K03 turbos) are garbage anyway (I traded in my A4 TQM for my Rogue) and sorority girls will destroy any vehicle they touch through neglect- turbo or not.

I'm a horrible turbo owner though, so don't listen to me. I don't even run blowoff valves

Their are hybrid electric turbos that are being put in to cars.
Provides a more efficient boost. Rumors has it that is being put into the next gen WRX.

kilogram wrote:

ImStricken wrote:sadly, there is no way to supply oil to the turbo once the engine is off. (unless it has a battery draining electric pump capable of pumping hot fluids - which i doubt.)

Sure there is. It's called an accumulator. Race cars use them to prevent oil starvation. Wouldn't be a huge deal to put them in production vehicles, but the reason OEMs don't do it is that it's pretty much solving a problem that doesn't really exist anymore.

im going to post from an engine oil accumulator producers website:
"The Turbo Saviour MKII oil accumulator can save your turbocharger and engine from damage caused by engine shutdown. After your engine stops running internal oil pressure drops to zero. At this time the turbo impeller is still spinning with momentum built up during engine operation. Without any oil feed to the turbochargers bearings, they can run dry and eventually fail. A side effect of this is that bearing debri can enter the engines oil system, damaging the engine as well as the turbo.
This is where the Turbo Saviour MKII can save you.
The Turbo Saviour MKII accumulates engine oil during engine operation and after engine oil pressure drops off, an internal check valve slowly releases the accumulated engine oil through a spin-on filter and on into the turbochargers bearings, preventing expensive turbo failures. These units are universal fit and can be vertically mounted anywhere in the engine bay."
&
"The instant the engine is stopped, the oil pressure drops and the piston is driven forward by the pressure of the spring. Oil is forced into the turbocharger bearings at 20 psi (1.4 bar) for approximately 2 minutes while the hot turbocharger rotor is spinning. The oil supplied from the accumulator, lubricates and cools the bearings and rotor."



so tell me how the problem "doesnt exist anymore" when you turn your car off, the oil supply/pressure is gone, and the turbo is still red hot and not being cooled down. you know just as well as i do - when you turn your car off, temps begin to rise in the engine. all the above statements from the manufacturers all contradict your prior post that the "problem is non existent." to each his own, but personally me - i really dont think installing turbo's into engines that will run them from 1500rpm and up (Ford Explorer) is a good idea, without having a turbo timer, etc. Having such a heavy car, and having the turbo put out max psi at such a low RPM is asking for disaster from soccer moms and today's general population who doesn't even know how ot pump their own gas. Ford made the turbo into almost a 2nd engine - instead of a power booster(when needed)

Well, for one thing I typically take advice/warnings of what will happen without their product from someone telling me how much I need their product with a grain of salt.

Turbos are not fragile things.

1. The turbo spins relatively slowly at idle and low load. It stops spinning within seconds of engine shut down (unless you turn the car off at full boost, in which case you deserve what you get). The time it takes to find a parking spot or pull into the driveway like a normal human being is more than enough for the turbo to slow down to a crawl. Oil pressure also does not instantaneously dissipate when the engine stops spinning. It also decompresses through the engine's passageways over a few seconds. OEMs generally consider this a non-issue and their turbos last hundreds of thousands of miles under such conditions and have for decades. My CT26 was in perfect condition when I removed it with 145,000 miles on it, despite never being turbo-timed and run at 30% higher load than factory settings.

2. "Max psi" for an OEM setup is typically a fraction of the turbo's maximum operating pressure ratio. This is called a safety factor. Maximum normal operating conditions are significantly less than what the unit can withstand. When owners start turning up the boost, that's when turbos start to suffer. An MHI 14b or Toyota CT26 can run 12psi (max boost) all day long for years and survive just fine. Run it at 22psi and you start affecting its lifespan.

In other words, even max boost isn't pushing these turbos very hard. They're designed to take the abuse and much more.

3. Water cooled turbos do continue to circulate water through the center housing through convection. You can actually hear coolant boiling off and being replaced by cooler liquid after the car shuts off in some vehicles. It's a sort of gurgling sound.

4. Modern oil- especially synthetic- does not coke. When I took my TD06 apart to upgrade the compressor wheel, there was no coke. You'll see it in older turbos that ran on crappier oil, but not in new turbos that have only seen synthetic or even newer conventional oil.

While I do agree that making cars more idiotproof will only breed bigger idiots, I really believe that this is a mountain being made out of a mole hill. This sort of configuration has proven itself for decades in Europe and I, for one, welcome our new turbolader overlords.

kilogram wrote:Well, for one thing I typically take advice/warnings of what will happen without their product from someone telling me how much I need their product with a grain of salt.

Turbos are not fragile things.

1. The turbo spins relatively slowly at idle and low load. It stops spinning within seconds of engine shut down (unless you turn the car off at full boost, in which case you deserve what you get). The time it takes to find a parking spot or pull into the driveway like a normal human being is more than enough for the turbo to slow down to a crawl. Oil pressure also does not instantaneously dissipate when the engine stops spinning. It also decompresses through the engine's passageways over a few seconds. OEMs generally consider this a non-issue and their turbos last hundreds of thousands of miles under such conditions and have for decades. My CT26 was in perfect condition when I removed it with 145,000 miles on it, despite never being turbo-timed and run at 30% higher load than factory settings.

2. "Max psi" for an OEM setup is typically a fraction of the turbo's maximum operating pressure ratio. This is called a safety factor. Maximum normal operating conditions are significantly less than what the unit can withstand. When owners start turning up the boost, that's when turbos start to suffer. An MHI 14b or Toyota CT26 can run 12psi (max boost) all day long for years and survive just fine. Run it at 22psi and you start affecting its lifespan.

In other words, even max boost isn't pushing these turbos very hard. They're designed to take the abuse and much more.

3. Water cooled turbos do continue to circulate water through the center housing through convection. You can actually hear coolant boiling off and being replaced by cooler liquid after the car shuts off in some vehicles. It's a sort of gurgling sound.

4. Modern oil- especially synthetic- does not coke. When I took my TD06 apart to upgrade the compressor wheel, there was no coke. You'll see it in older turbos that ran on crappier oil, but not in new turbos that have only seen synthetic or even newer conventional oil.

While I do agree that making cars more idiotproof will only breed bigger idiots, I really believe that this is a mountain being made out of a mole hill. This sort of configuration has proven itself for decades in Europe and I, for one, welcome our new turbolader overlords.

i agree with a lot of what you say, but managing a salvage yard for 5+years = i can tell you the amount of turbo'd cars that come in totaled for scrap - i can see trends. you might have had great experience (through knowledge & care) but the common idiot who drives 5-10,000 miles after it was supposed to be changed, or on low oil, wont experience the same great results as you do. (because your smart enough to take care of your engine/turbo setup).

if i had the time to take pictures of jetta's that are in great shape, look great, but the engine is half taken apart by the hired mechanic - simply because the turbo needed replacing. why the engines left that way, half taken apart? = the people couldnt fathom dumping the money involved - and ended up scrapping the car. so i take what you say, and know it makes great sense - but i also see that your smart. smart enough not to abuse a car. but i also see the "common everyday" person's cars coming in, and the condition they are in, and the story behind the scrap.

Jettas (VAG cars in general) are a tough issue though. Those 1.8t motors were notorious for sludge and a host of other issues. I still firmly believe that my B5 A4 TQM was one of the worst engineered cars on the road. I know what you mean, I see those all over the place too. I went to test drive one before I bought mine and it felt really sluggish and it turned out that the turbo was seized, but the K03 is really just a hairdryer that someone decided to bolt to an exhaust manifold. It definitely happens more with those cars than with any other on the road, but knowing what I do about those motors after years of working on one, I believe it to be more of an issue with that particular motor than with the concept of using a small turbo to get good low-end response. I changed the oil every 8k miles on that engine using german castrol, ran about double the wastegate pressure and had a non-operational bypass valve for several years that I just didn't care to fix and there were no noticeable issues with shaft or thrust play when I traded the car in. I was not nice to that piece of sh*t

Honestly, VAG cars are as bad or worse than DSMs when it comes to build quality. At least DSMs are engineered better.

Incidentally, even with the boost turned up, that car was still slower than my Rogue, hehe.

kilogram wrote:Those 1.8t motors were notorious for sludge and a host of other issues

again, i agree very much with your expertise, and experience, and knowledge. but you said it best: those 1.8 motors were notorious for sludge. and sludge comes from what? burned oil, over used oil, oil that was exposed to high temps and not changed in time, etc.
not only to keep up with emissions, but the turbo it self raises the engines operating temps. it also reduces the oils lifespan.

Oil that is stressed by contaminants and oxidation-or has to work thousands of miles longer than it was designed to-will break down into a gel that sticks to your engine parts. and oil that has to pass through a stressed turbo will break down even faster, and will require a more frequent maintenance regiment.

-you also said that you maintained a strict oil change regiment. that brings me back to my original post/point = turbo's stress oil faster than naturally aspirated engines. and with todays general populous, either A. not knowing a damn thing about engines, and not caring, or B. not having the funds available to do the $40+ oil change = extend their drain intervals = thus beginning to destroy their engines prematurely.

stressed oil that is beginning to cake up + turbo that is timed @ 1,500rpm + no turbo timer + heavy SUV + average dope who doesnt understand cars = disaster.

personally, seeing ford using the turbo to 'pick up the slack' in their engine scares me. i think its way to relied upon to keep everything going. that turbo will be used way to often. it should be there only when really needed like when the RPM reaches 4500 or above. this way its not spooling up while sitting in traffic/ parking lots lol

ImStricken wrote:

kilogram wrote:Those 1.8t motors were notorious for sludge and a host of other issues

again, i agree very much with your expertise, and experience, and knowledge. but you said it best: those 1.8 motors were notorious for sludge. and sludge comes from what? burned oil, over used oil, oil that was exposed to high temps and not changed in time, etc.

That's part of it. Part of it is also the design of the engine. The 1.8t sits at a slant toward the exhaust side of the engine. The oil drains from the head necessarily have to come through that side to get back down to the pan, past the hot exhaust ports. Oil also tends to pool a bit in those areas and bake before it makes it down the drains. Oil temps in those cars are routinely higher than other engines because of this- so much so that Audi actually installed oil temp gauges in the dash.

Most turbocharged vehicles typically run fairly substantial oil to water fluid coolers though. It's fairly uncommon to find one that doesn't.

it should be there only when really needed like when the RPM reaches 4500 or above. this way its not spooling up while sitting in traffic/ parking lots lol

Yeah, that's kind of a double-edged sword. The A4 was a bit annoying that it could build boost with very little throttle. That actually hurts fuel economy, since most ECUs begin to dump fuel whenever they see positive pressure in the manifold. The ECU is hitting mixtures down in the 11:1 range just trying to go up a hill. Granted, this isn't as much an issue with stratified charge GDI, since they are much less prone to knock even on lower grade fuels.

But then the idea of waiting until 4500rpm for boost makes my road rage flare up With that kind of lag, you may as well be driving a civic, haha.

my prior mistrust for turbo's has been confirmed:

Quote:
"Designed for long-life reliability, EcoBoost’s turbochargers feature water-cooled bearing jackets. This architecture is designed to prevent oil “coking” that could occur in previous-generation turbochargers. The new design means that EcoBoost drivers don’t need to observe special operating precautions, such as idling the engine before switching it off. The turbochargers are designed for a life cycle of at least 150,000 miles or 10 years. "http://media.ford.com/article_display.c ... e_id=29946

Ford themselves printed this: "Designed for a life cycle of 150,000 miles or 10 years."

and thats their own print. so if they "claim" to get 150,000 miles or 10years, guess what the reality is that most will fail around the 100,000 (give or take 15-20 thousand miles. depending on usage and care). OUCH.

wait till the exploror/flex/etc owners find out the price tag to replace a ford turbo! OH WAIT:
"I just experienced the failure of my bank 1 turbo @ 75,000. I got a quote at the local dealer for $2,000.00 to replace it." - Turbo Charger failure @ 75,000 miles : Ford Flex Forum. http://www.fordflex.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7594

Wow I'm shocked, no major powertrain components should be designed for 10-year service life, that is absolutely pathetic!

By comparision my father still drives his 1989 Ford F150 4x4 manual trans 5-spd and it is completely reliable, in 24 years he's only done basic maintenance and never had a break-down. He would trust his 24-year-old Ford over any new Ford and I'm starting to see why!! What happened to people keeping their vehicles for 15+ years? When did vehicles become disposable items, after 8-10 years they have no value and its time to purchase something new again!?!? Not only is the throw-away consumer society making this a reality, now manufacturers like Ford are starting to make this a new convention with pathetic 10-year design service life on a major engine component - sounds like a great way to drive away customers, or maybe that's exactly what people want now? I could live with this IF new vehicle prices reflected this. Sell me a 10-year lifespan vehicle but it better be 40% cheaper than its competitor!!

kerrton wrote:Wow I'm shocked, no major powertrain components should be designed for 10-year service life, that is absolutely pathetic!
What happened to people keeping their vehicles for 15+ years? When did vehicles become disposable items, after 8-10 years they have no value and its time to purchase something new again!?!? Not only is the throw-away consumer society making this a reality, now manufacturers like Ford are starting to make this a new convention with pathetic 10-year design service life on a major engine component - sounds like a great way to drive away customers, or maybe that's exactly what people want now? I could live with this IF new vehicle prices reflected this. Sell me a 10-year lifespan vehicle but it better be 40% cheaper than its competitor!!

by kerrton » Tue May 08, 2012 3:34 pm
"After reading a lot about the latest generation of turbos, in particular the Ford Ecoboost which has recieved a ton of press the past couple years, I think engineers have solved some or all of the problems you described regarding traditional turbos. One, they no longer require premium fuel, and they no longer run the risk of overheating and destroying bearings due to lack of cooling time i.e. you don't have to let them idle before shutting off the car - lubricant will continue to circulate even after you've shut the car off and walked into Starbucks to meet your buddies for a latte. Also, I looked at the oil change schedule for the 2.0 Ecoboost on the Explorer and it states very long change intervals of 8000 km, and specifies both conventional and synthetic - no strict requirement for synthetic.

I'm not expert, there is a ton of promotional tech info on the Ecoboost line of engines as Ford as battled against perceptions as you've described above. They claim that all of these are OLD misconceptions, and the current generation of turbos with direct injection have advanced and are as worry-free as any normally aspirated engine. Search for "Ecoboost torture test" for some really cool stuff. Now direct injection, that's another technology all together, it mimics the injection of a diesel, and early implementations suffered set backs due to intake fouling with carbon deposits among other things. Apparently this too has been overcome, by Kia/Hyundai in particular who seem to have mastered this design parameter before most others."
post6337477.html?hilit=ford%20explorer#p6337477

what was that you were saying, about Ford having solved some or all of the problems I described regarding, turbo's being prone to early failure and needing rebuilds when used in/as daily drivers? LMFAO (you know i love you lololol)

i still stand behind my original thoughts as i have stated, directly under your original post in 2012:
"its my prediction that many-many owners will be dumping these cars sooner than later simply because installing a small 2.0L + turbo into a 4000lb car is going to absolutely fry that turbo out. that turbo will be working way to often under its max psi and stressing out the engine internals way to much - plus operating under much higher temps. given the 5yr/60k one would have to be a fool to buy that engine option. its just not something i agree with."


just reading some comments under that ford flex forum:

"That's not bad for a turbocharger. They spin 100's of thousands of RPM's in nearly an instant, and sometimes have to stop in near that. They go through incredible stress. I'd definitely like them to last longer than 75k personally, but I've had less luck than that with my turbo cars."

"I had a turbo in my Flex fail at around 40,000 miles."

ImStricken wrote: what was that you were saying, about Ford having solved some or all of the problems I described regarding, turbo's being prone to early failure and needing rebuilds when used in/as daily drivers? LMFAO (you know i love you lololol)

i still stand behind my original thoughts as i have stated, directly under your original post in 2012:
"its my prediction that many-many owners will be dumping these cars sooner than later simply because installing a small 2.0L + turbo into a 4000lb car is going to absolutely fry that turbo out. that turbo will be working way to often under its max psi and stressing out the engine internals way to much - plus operating under much higher temps. given the 5yr/60k one would have to be a fool to buy that engine option. its just not something i agree with."


just reading some comments under that ford flex forum:

"That's not bad for a turbocharger. They spin 100's of thousands of RPM's in nearly an instant, and sometimes have to stop in near that. They go through incredible stress. I'd definitely like them to last longer than 75k personally, but I've had less luck than that with my turbo cars."

"I had a turbo in my Flex fail at around 40,000 miles."

And it would appear Subaru hasn't solved the problem either, as mentioned on an independent Subaru repair site indicates.

We have been replacing Turbo’s pretty frequently lately, and for a while I had thought it was just isolated to the 2005 models, well that no longer seems to be the case. Below are just a couple of items that can help prolong the life of both your Turbo and your Subaru engine engine.

If you own a 2005 and newer Subaru with a Turbo there is a chance that you may be aware of some problems associated with the turbo becoming starved for oil and eventually failing. In the most extreme cases taking the entire engine with it.

A follow up comment made an interesting observation. "The problem is solely lack of maintenance , if you fool yourself into believing you don't have to change the oil lots and often, you will buy a Turbo and maybe an engine.

Take a newer Z car, most owners of these vehicles pamper their cars with frequent synthetic oil changes as do the owners of the STI. Its the Outback XT, Forester XT, Legacy GT where the car was bought by the “commuter customer” and tries to treat it like a non Turbo car, and the results are expensive."

Rogue One wrote:

ImStricken wrote: what was that you were saying, about Ford having solved some or all of the problems I described regarding, turbo's being prone to early failure and needing rebuilds when used in/as daily drivers? LMFAO (you know i love you lololol)

i still stand behind my original thoughts as i have stated, directly under your original post in 2012:
"its my prediction that many-many owners will be dumping these cars sooner than later simply because installing a small 2.0L + turbo into a 4000lb car is going to absolutely fry that turbo out. that turbo will be working way to often under its max psi and stressing out the engine internals way to much - plus operating under much higher temps. given the 5yr/60k one would have to be a fool to buy that engine option. its just not something i agree with."


just reading some comments under that ford flex forum:

"That's not bad for a turbocharger. They spin 100's of thousands of RPM's in nearly an instant, and sometimes have to stop in near that. They go through incredible stress. I'd definitely like them to last longer than 75k personally, but I've had less luck than that with my turbo cars."

"I had a turbo in my Flex fail at around 40,000 miles."

And it would appear Subaru hasn't solved the problem either, as mentioned on an independent Subaru repair site indicates.

We have been replacing Turbo’s pretty frequently lately, and for a while I had thought it was just isolated to the 2005 models, well that no longer seems to be the case. Below are just a couple of items that can help prolong the life of both your Turbo and your Subaru engine engine.

If you own a 2005 and newer Subaru with a Turbo there is a chance that you may be aware of some problems associated with the turbo becoming starved for oil and eventually failing. In the most extreme cases taking the entire engine with it.

A follow up comment made an interesting observation. "The problem is solely lack of maintenance , if you fool yourself into believing you don't have to change the oil lots and often, you will buy a Turbo and maybe an engine.

Take a newer Z car, most owners of these vehicles pamper their cars with frequent synthetic oil changes as do the owners of the STI. Its the Outback XT, Forester XT, Legacy GT where the car was bought by the “commuter customer” and tries to treat it like a non Turbo car, and the results are expensive."

great post R1... to bad i just got banned today on the hyundai forums, otherwise i would have used your post on there to bad a bunch of cry-babies got diaper rash, and threw a hissy fit trying to dispel my commentary on how turbo's require meticulous care and stringent oil changes. not my fault if they fell for the salesman's BS. lol they are mad at me, and are doing everything they can to try and claim i am hyping things up. oh well, i tried to help. they will learn the hard way.

http://1.hidemyass.com/ip-7/encoded/Oi8 ... Lmh0bWw%3D

http://1.hidemyass.com/ip-7/encoded/Oi8 ... 1sP25vanM9

ImStricken wrote:Great post R1... to bad I just got banned today on the Hyundai forums, otherwise I would have used your post on there. Too bad a bunch of cry-babies got diaper rash, and threw a hissy fit trying to dispel my commentary on how turbo's require meticulous care and stringent oil changes. Not my fault if they fell for the salesman's BS. They are mad at me, and are doing everything they can to try and claim I am hyping things up. Oh well, I tried to help. They will learn the hard way.

Good thing I can't change your avatar.


Probably banned you because of your typing skills!

apparently members there didnt know what they were getting into, when they purchased a turbo charged engine, and got offended when i "broke the news" regarding the meticulous care these engines need, in order to last longer. you would think they would be thankful, and open minded to learning. some were very inquisitive and thankful to the info that was contradictory to service manuals & what they "heard". i even went as far as posting a long comment from an experienced mechanic and car collector. i even went as far as showing that FORD itself, claimed their turbo's are also very limited in lifespan. again, some where very happy to have learned a thing or two, and the rest were either doubtful of me, or thinking i have some hidden agenda and 'hyping' things up, or idk. one guy went as far as trying to compare his airplane's turbo's (which fly at almost -40F degrees by the way @ 300mph) to his santa fe which will see summer temps of 90*F in stand still traffic; to somehow contradict me, and prove that turbo's last for much longer than what i was claiming. what an idiot.

its common for people to ask their dealers "does this particular car require any special maintenance?" and salesmen will lie just to make the sale. if they told the truth about turbo's or anything else - they wouldn't sell those models. HECK: i remember when i was buying my new bike, and i asked the salesman (just to see if he is a phony) "do bikes take any special maintenance?" and his answer was: "not at all. just change the oil and check your tire pressure" - what a crock of crap that was! thank god i knew better lol

furthermore, they read the service schedule in their manuals and take that as gospel. they need to understand that car makers want to make their cars appear as cheap as possible to service, so that too helps 'make the sale.' (while dealers will try and double the service schedule on certain easy to maintain items to help fund their dealerships).

while i agree that engine oil, both synth & organic, have come a long way; they still need proper service times. especially in engines that have turbo's or superchargers. or in engines that will be working in conditions outside of the norm(southern states, dusty, humid, cold environments). not all peoples service schedules should look the same. oh well. sucks for them, that the mods were more scared with upsetting their members, versus educating their members. (PS: the mods were virtually non existent until someone flagged a mod and wanted me removed).

PS: between working at my desk, answering the hundreds of email-comments coming in from my youtube account, answering over 100 NICO comments per day, and the other forums that i am on, emailing me - i very often sound like a rambling idiot, but whoever who doesn't like it; can kiss my a** lol i do this all for free (hand out my knowledge, advice, experience) so anyone who judges me or takes umbrage due to my "typing skills" can seriously shove it i guess for some feeble minds its easier to pay attention to spelling and or grammar than it is to the actual content.)

Too funny!!! I'd prescribe some down time, but I know better. Sooo, take two shots of vodka, and call it a day!

Rogue One wrote:Too funny!!! I'd prescribe some down time, but I know better. Sooo, take two shots of vodka, and call it a day!

i dont drink much, let alone hard alcohol lol (yet i do love fruity/sweet alcoholic drinks. like apple cider beer! yuuum!!)

you know R1, its not a shocker that i dont play well with others. i have always been the type of person who has the "most people hate me, but those who really know me- LOVE me" life. it all pretty much started during my time in the army. things changed. i just dont have the desire to deal with BS/idiots, nor most importantly those who refuse to see the reality of things in life. "lead, follow, or get the f*** out of the way" i say (great army infantry saying). i have no problem with people having apposing views, or doing things differently than i would - i just cant stand when those same people try and use their life & values as a reason to dispel my experience/knowledge/or the simple truth. thats where things go downhill. lol i cant stand those types that will view someone(me in this case) as an idiot/wrong, just because their views/opinions differ from that of me.

ImStricken wrote: i have no problem with people having opposing views, or doing things differently than i would

Is it why you couldn't stand a Hyundai forum member who compares the turbo in his aircraft with the turbo in his car?


Just kidding.


During my lunch break I read the Hyundai forum and I laughed a lot. When you try to explain something and the other side doesn't understand (either because they are not listening, or they don't have the capacity to understand), don't waste your time buddy!

ImStricken wrote:

Rogue One wrote:Too funny!!! I'd prescribe some down time, but I know better. Sooo, take two shots of vodka, and call it a day!

i dont drink much, let alone hard alcohol lol (yet i do love fruity/sweet alcoholic drinks. like apple cider beer! yuuum!!)

you know R1, its not a shocker that i dont play well with others. i have always been the type of person who has the "most people hate me, but those who really know me- LOVE me" life. it all pretty much started during my time in the army. things changed. i just dont have the desire to deal with BS/idiots, nor most importantly those who refuse to see the reality of things in life. "lead, follow, or get the f*** out of the way" i say (great army infantry saying). i have no problem with people having apposing views, or doing things differently than i would - i just cant stand when those same people try and use their life & values as a reason to dispel my experience/knowledge/or the simple truth. thats where things go downhill. lol i cant stand those types that will view someone(me in this case) as an idiot/wrong, just because their views/opinions differ from that of me.

Belive it or not, I actually caught grief from a FOD I was seeing for ordering a "fruity" drink. Some time on the range with your Glock will be a better stress reliever.

Look, I know you need to vent, so just remember...

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
-Gautama Buddha

We're getting off topic. I think I'll spend some time lurking in the Qashqai and Dualis forums to get their take on Turbo's.

P.S. You do know the spelling crack was a joke!

Rogue One wrote: Good thing I can't change your avatar.

I like this avatar..maybe another moderator can make a surprise to ImStricken?