New setup, wondering what to do for fuel management.

[ZenkiBoarder]

Hey everyone. Well I keep going back and forth on what to do for fuel management. I either want to get a Enthalpy ECU or E-manage blue. My Setup isnt anything powerful :

T25370cc InjectorsN60 MAFBottom mount manifoldSS FMIC kitand all the other things

All I want is 7psi and thats it.

Basiclly I just cant choose which one to do. Any advice as to which be better/ more efficent?

[AZhitman]

I'd go Bikirom. Save your money.

[Edub1]

Hey everyone. Well I keep going back and forth on what to do for fuel management. I either want to get a Enthalpy ECU or E-manage blue. My Setup isnt anything powerful :

T25370cc InjectorsN60 MAFBottom mount manifoldSS FMIC kitand all the other things

All I want is 7psi and thats it.

Basiclly I just cant choose which one to do. Any advice as to which be better/ more efficent?

You don't need much. An SAFCII will take care of your fuel. For 7lbs you can probably get away with the following:

Run around 11.5:1 AF ratio93 octane-2* at dizzy1 step colder plugs

Standard retard of .5*/lb would only come to -3.5* anyway and our timing is conservative.

[Carl H]

your timing isnt conservative, you've never seen a ka timing map.the ka timing map is VERY agressive, safc is a sure fire way to blow a motor.emanage ultmate or a rom tune, ive a friend with an emanage ultimate that he decided not to build his ka-t...its forsale if you are interested.

[Florida240sx]

Enthalpy. if you plan to upgrade. safc if not.

[Edub1]

your timing isnt conservative, you've never seen a ka timing map.the ka timing map is VERY agressive, safc is a sure fire way to blow a motor.emanage ultmate or a rom tune, ive a friend with an emanage ultimate that he decided not to build his ka-t...its forsale if you are interested.

Agressive compared to what? I've added well over 5* of timing with 93 on my NA motor and had no and I've run 15lbs pulling around 7.5*.

My T04E 50 setup doesn't even pull timing untill after 5lbs and at 7lbs I'm only pulling 1*. The combination I mentioned will work just fine. Turning back the dizzy 3* would be even safer and running at 11.5 AF will almost guarentee no problems.

[AZhitman]

SAFC = Garbage. Period.

Bikirom costs $100 more than a new SAFC-II and there's no need to mess with the base timing, run certain gas, or sacrifice safety.

[BEST1TUNING.COM]

go with the ECU tune

[Carl H]

some food for thought, here is a STOCK s13 timing map assuming no knock...only reason your car is proly still alive is because it reverted to the knock fuel and ignition maps, some tuning that safc and btm did for you.

[eazye2000]

I run the SAFC and run 14psi. It does what it's supposed to do. Add/Pull fuel.

But I run 110+ octane and have no need for pulling timing right now. I live on an Air Force base and can get it for about the same price as what everyone else pays for 93.

I am still up in the air on fuel/timing management myself, that's why I'm still going ghetto right now.

I'm a 'tard, you can say it..

[BEST1TUNING.COM]

What Carl is trying to say is that your relying on your cars knock sensing as a form of management....this is not tuning. Adding fuel with an SAFC will retard timing increasingly with the a greater % enrichment and subtracting fuel will advance your timing increasing by % leaned. 14 psi 20 psi 30 psi...anyone can run psi but you could get greater power and reliability at a lesser psi with a better form of management. Its about being efficient and an SAFC is not efficient in this case.

Take a look at how large of a knock area is in the stock map. If the ECU is retarding timing until the outer edges of the knock map, it doesnt just stop once it is in the non sensing portion. The code is designed to slowly bring back timing as long as there is no more knock and if knock still continues for a period of time regardless of timing pulled, you are dirrected straight to the low octane maps. This is the reason some of you are saved. If the low octane maps still dont do the job then you are **** out of luck.

[eazye2000]

Well count me lucky then, I guess.

Or maybe it's the 5k I put into my motor.. I dunno. I hope that 'ish lasts a while. Or it's LS time !
Modified by eazye2000 at 11:03 AM 6/1/2007

[Edub1]

Too bad my E motor doesn't have knock sensor function. What saves my motor is the fact that I have the proper amount of timing.

I agree that SAFC isn't the best - I'm personally going megasquirt. But this guy is only boosting 7lbs. BikiRom is probably the best option if he wants to get deep into tuning, but the fact is he doesn't need to do much with his timing.

[Carl H]

wrong again.even the ka-e had knock control, and honetly its effin EASY to tune a ka-e, they use eprom ecus so all you would need is an emulator and some software and you would have a package that would decimate the megasquirt system.

[S13FX]

Yep Carl hit the nail on the head, rom tuning for the KA-E is for the win. Especialy now since they figured out the full ECCS code finaly.

Visit hybridka.com perfect page for all your rom tuning needs. If you have any questions hit me up.

[GTR PrYdE]

Couldn't you just retard the timing "X" degrees, and leave the fuel to the N60 Maf? Therefore using the N60 with 370cc's instead of any fuel management

[Edub1]

I can tell niether of you has ever tuned an E motor. I am one of the frequent posters and beta testers on Hybridka.com. I use the same screen name.

The SOHC code is not deciphered - in fact Gabe (deviouska) is just now working on an entirely new approach based on new findings that suggest that the SOHC ECU uses a unique system of a blended alpha-N / MAF operation that was previously unknown. And, the SOHC does not have any knock function because it lacks a knock sensor. The map labeled "knock" is labeled that way only by default.

Tuning for the DE motor is far more advanced and as previously stated, Bikirom is perhaps the best bang for buck tuning option, but to the best of my knowledge requires a fair amount of study along with dyno time and what not. I don't know if a seperate consult cable is needed.

Anyway, the point is, it's only 7 lbs. Many people don't even pull any timing until around there. Sure, the best thing is a full stand alone. But, there are many people who have been using an SAFC and retarding the dizzy 2* for a long time. Obviously it's not the best but for only 7lbs this is sufficiant and will work just fine. Especially in combination with 93 octane and colder plugs. And no, the car will not revert to the knock settings - when this happens the loss of power should be obvious.

[Carl H]

i suppose i stand corrected then, but i was sure that the e motor had a knock sensor...

[AZhitman]

Bikirom is perhaps the best bang for buck tuning option, but to the best of my knowledge requires a fair amount of study along with dyno time and what not. I don't know if a seperate consult cable is needed.

Not too hard - Uses a USB cable.

I need to pull and post my maps.

[BEST1TUNING.COM]

oooh E...sorry about that. you are correct. Its rare to find knock sensing in SOHC motors..not just nissan but any manufacturer.

The Alpha-N is load based on throttle position. It is great for N/A since after a relatively small amount of throttle opening and loss of vaccume, the ECU will think its breathing better than it actually is and would cause a loss of ability to tune a good part of part throttle opperation. It would deteriorate the resolution of the maps. Using a combination of Alpha-N and MAF to calculate the load will allow less enrichment at less throttle position regardless of MAF input and would smooth the delivery of fuel into WOT.

Alot of EMS systems incorperate Alpha-N into the code and it really shines in MAP based ITB N/A applications due to the quick jump to atmospheric pressure at a small amount of throttle opening.

[The_Chosen_One]

wrong again.even the ka-e had knock control, and honetly its effin EASY to tune a ka-e, they use eprom ecus so all you would need is an emulator and some software and you would have a package that would decimate the megasquirt system.

I dont see how it would decimate megasquirt, when MS laps circles around it but hey whatever floats your boat.

[deviousKA]

The ka24e ecu hardware is superior to any current megasquirt versions, and arguably, so is the code.

What you have with an OEM ecu of this caliber is a distributed network of control. Rather than have a single 8, 16, or 32 bit processor handling all CAS decoding and fuel/ignition output (core functions), the ECCS system off-loads to task oriented companion processors.

The main advantage to all of this and the reason the ECCS can effectively use such a high resolution CAS lies in interrupt timing.

A single microcontroller can easily handle the task of deciphering 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation (or 360 degrees of cam) directly, provided resolution is available in the CAS (in the case of ECCS resolution is 2 degree per signal, on 720 count, when counting both rising and falling). What the single threading micro cannot be expected to efficiently accomplish is to handle this task when there are are others competing to be completed as well, such as possible fuel/ignition output. In microcontroller terms, this is called and issue with"interrupt priority".

Alternatively, most modern aftermarket EFI measure the time (using an mcu counter) between current cam and/or crank sensor pulses, decide which count it wants to use for next operation, get signal, wait appropriate count and then perform operation. This allows for less signals to come from cam/crank sensor and and thus frees up time for other operations. These type of systems (megasquirt, AEM, etc.) cannot decipher the CAS like ECCS itself. ECCS does not assume for next signal, it performs its operation in current time.

In the ECCS system the 360 degree and the 90/sync CAS signals are fed to 2 and sometimes 3 different controllers, each having its own task within the system. The sequential operation of the fuel injector outputs is accomplished by using 2 of the controllers, one decoding the current cylinder in line, and the other using the normalized backside of the 90/1 pulse to fire an interrupt to start a counter on the 360 signal. This counter has a compare match, so as soon as the correct amount of 1 degree signals are read the controller will perform its operation.

The controller decoding the current cylinder in line does so by using the entirety of available CAS signals, not only the 90 degree sync. There are 3 distinct patterns on the CAS. Unlike aftermarket EFI, ECCS doesnt even measure this 90 degree pulse at all, it uses it to fire interrupts. These interrupts start and stop a counter on the 1 degree signal. Once this controller has decoded cylinder in line, it sends this data to the sequential fuel controller so that it knows which cylinder to output. It is constantly decoding the CAS using the same method, using the normalized backside of the pulse like I mentioned before, but it still needs to know what cylinder it is on.

This is all without even mentioning the controll processor yet, the one that actually extrapolates and sends the desired fuel injection and ignition timing values to the companion processors.

The control processor is indeed an 8 bit, a hitachi hd6303ycp , not much different than megasquirt. Its kind of neat in that it extra functions provided in the Hitachi version (in comparison to 6801 motorola counterpart) that make it comparable to the 68hc11 or the 68HC908. I use them quite a bit, especially in my output control routine. The controller does lack flash memory, but the system makes up for it with the more than adequately sized external memory.

To sum all of that up, think of the ka24e ecu hardware as everything that UMS aspires to be(distributed control), with a slightly older processor (that doesnt have to do very much), that is limited to using the nissan CAS.

I mentioned earlier that the code was arguably better than that of the megasquirt in any current versions, that is simply because we have no user guide to the ECCS system and must reverse engineer it. This would seem to make the megasquirt code better, but in reality ECCS is much more complex and refined.
Modified by deviousKA at 10:00 AM 6/4/2007

[Carl H]

wow, well said.this would explain why alot of aftermarket ems systems that plug into nissan hardware have a hard time of reading the cas signal because it is 'too fast'.this would also make sense because for the longest time i couldnt figure out why there were 3 processors on the board, but your explination makes sense.thanks, very much enlightining.but there you have it the ka-e stock ecu pwnz ms in any iteration .

[AZhitman]

Can't argue with that - I'm gonna have to read it 3 more times until my brain quits hurting.

[S13FX]

Gabe, I have been following your discoveries on hybridka.com for a while now, and I have to say I get fascinated more and more each time I read something new. Especially when I read that it will be, and is possible to switch to map with stock ECU.

[Carl H]

map switching is easy, the moates.net 2timer module makes it a snap.

[BEST1TUNING.COM]

Carl I think he is talking about switching from MAF to MAP using the stock ECU.

[S13FX]

Yah that too, but I did hit up in another thread too, about how easy it is to switch between two maps. Both good things to bring up ..

[neverlift]

well... great thread too bad noobs will never search or read it.as for maf to map look on hybridka a great deal of what would be involved is there. I was CLOSE to attempting this till my sohc gave out(I'm fine I promise. BOOM) only real timing retard control on E is via AIT(if installed) and CTS when temps rise on either. NO knock sensor

anywho, op close setup to what my plans are.

[Carl H]

the whole maf to map thing isnt terribly hard, the real trick is getting the map curve (or sloping line rather) correct...least what ive looked into it.